Forum - View topicIsao Takahata: Endless Memories
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Shiflan
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But isn't that really the purpose of most movies, TV, and art in general? The entire point is emotional manipulation: the programs make you feel for the characters and their experiences. I think, perhaps, the criticism here is that the emotions are mainly unpleasant, as opposed to there being emotional manipulation of any sort. |
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Chiibi
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Yes, it is and I normally hate using the word "manipulative" but I will use it if I feel a media is trying too hard to get a reaction out of me. Like...it hasn't earned that reaction from me but it thinks it has.
It's not even that. To give you an idea, Ano Hana is one of my most favorite anime ever. lol Another thing that really bothers me about Grave of the Fireflies is that we know RIGHT AWAY what is going to happen. The beginning just gives it away. There's no element of surprise. If I'm going to watch a movie that features people struggling to survive, I want to always be asking the question "What's gonna happen next? Will they be okay?" It's like.........I dunno, encountering an injured animal on the highway and spending two hours watching it get weaker and die. You know it's gonna die and there's nothing you can do about it. That's what this movie feels like. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Gotcha, I know what you mean now.
I think that is what we foreigners tend to see in Grave because a lot of the subtlety and cultural references go straight over our heads. I don't know if you read the review that vonPeterhof linked a few posts ago, but it certainly provides a much better perspective on the film...especially to hear from Takahata himself that the movie isn't about war at all but rather is about the changes to Japanese society. I think this is one of those films where the point is really in the journey more than the destination. Personally I don't enjoy Grave very much (though I can recognize its significance), but I certainly can appreciate the idea of the journey being more important than "whodunit and why" in other titles. Heck, I think that most of us have favorite movies or TV shows for which we already know "what happens" because we've watched them before. Despite knowing the plot details in advance the films are still engaging to watch because we enjoy seeing our favorite characters, or perhaps it's the art style, or the music, or whatever else instead. |
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Lemonchest
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The thing that sticks with me about Pom Poko is how at the end, when the Tanuki realise that there is no chance of victory, their final act isn't to all go out in a blaze of glory or be whisked away to some magic kingdom; but instead they conjure up one last illusion to remind both themselves & the humans of what's been lost before they give up the ghost & try to blend into human society. It's a reminder that, while there was never any actual Tanuki war, the type of land conflicts depicted in the film very much did happen. The post-war construction boom saw a land of hills & valleys, farms & villages flattened & concreted over to make room for high rises & factories; often illegally & with a lot of violence & deceit. Pom Poko takes that history & turns it into a kid friendly fable.
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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You can say that and be technically correct if you focus on the benign aspects of the word but there's a reason "manipulation" has a negative connotation when dealing with emotions. It tends to mean preying on base emotions and tricks rather than reason and craft. The greatest contrast of both I know of is the movie Dancer in The Dark. The one with Björk playing a woman going blind and getting framed for a murder and allowing it to happen because it benefits her son. The story is strong, it makes you very sad naturally. But the end is this manipulative sequence where you follow Björk’s character sobbing and trying to sing a little song to herself as she walks to her death chamber, she gazes at her son and friends for the last time while bawling and breaking down. Grave of the Fireflies relies highly on the effect of watching the kids break down, getting sick and slowly dying instead of relying on the story’s circumstances themselves. You bawl watching the big death scene, you cry as you see the candy tin fall away. As I said, it’s not meaningless. The movie wants you to see that this happens to children if you desert them in their time of need, but it does fall in the more predominately negative definition of “manipulation”. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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I know what you mean about "emotional manipulation" tending to have a negative connotation, but in my perspective the reasoning is a bit different. If someone accuses another of "emotional manipulation" in the negative sense it implies that the manipulator is engaged in deliberate, calculated, actions for the express purpose of affecting another. Of course many if not most actions that people take end up affecting others, but the differentiation lies in whether that was an unintended side effect or was intentional. Manipulation implies intent, and that's why it has a negative connotation with real-world relationships. But they key is that most art--and certainly an animated film with storyboards, a director, script, etc, is 100% "intentional". All animation is intentional. Nothing happens by random circumstance, every element of every second of every show/movie was crafted by someone, deliberately.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with that so I can't really follow along.
I think that is largely missing the point of the film, though I must admit I thought the same when I first saw it. See the article linked by vanPeterhof earlier in the thread. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm fully on board with that saying. I use it a lot to defend romance titles that people complain are "too predictable". (lolwhattajoke) But when the destination is as awful as child mortality....I'd just really rather skip the whole thing if you know what I mean. xD I have not heard of Dancer in the Dark but it sounds pretty soul-crushing. But you know what film makes me angry? "Marley and Me". That lazy piece of crap milks pet owners' sentimentality for all its worth in the last ten minutes and it's INSULTING. Really insulting. You want a decent emotional "man and his dog" movie, go watch 'Hachi' and get back to me. lol So what is another one of Takahata's best works you recommend? With all the praise, I'm willing to give him another chance just as long as it's something less depressing. (I know I should just read Peter's article but I'm actually on a really tight schedule this week) Last edited by Chiibi on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I think Grave is an good film, but it's not one that would watch repeatedly for enjoyment given the subject matter & the fact that a lot of the meaning is lost on me as a non-Japanese. I like both Pom Poko and Only Yesterday a lot! |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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I've only seen My Neighbors The Yamadas once. It didn't impress me much and when I was making my "Ghibli Collection" I decided I'd skip it (along with Grave of the Fireflies and Earthsea) but I found a used DVD copy for $5 and thought I'd give it another chance some time. I still haven't gotten around to it but maybe this series will get me to do it.
And while I really don't remember specifics of the movie anymore, I remember my reaction. I felt that it was “too Japanese” for an American audience. Which is an odd thing for me to think, as a Japanophile who loves the differences in Japan and Western societies. But for a “relatable” family comedy it seemed odd. I thought that may reactions of foreignness would be akin to how a Japanese family would react if they watched a cartoon of something like Arlo & Janis or Rose is Rose which, if you’ve never bothered reading it, are packed with Americana and stereotypes of an idealized Middle-class. But that’s how I felt some 10 years ago. I really should try it out again. |
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CandisWhite
Posts: 282 |
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My Neighbours The Yamadas looks pretty comparable to what indie animation does in Canada and the States; It's not everyone's cup of tea but I don't think nationality plays a part in that. The animation looks to be worth the price of admission and that Que Sera Sera dub is absolutely charming. I haven't seen it yet but am definitely interested.
The Adventures of Panda and Friends Voice Direction & Adaptation: Arden Ryshpan Voices: Julian Bailey, Eramelinda Boquer, Aimee Castle, Teddy Lee Dillon, Dean Hagopian, Terry Haig, A.J. Henderson, Liza Hull, Walter Massey, Kaia Scott, Jeremy Steinberg, Jane Woods Studio Supervisor: Barbara Parker Post Production Director: Claudine Carpenter / Post Production Assistant: Julie Pelletier Voice Recording and Re-recording: Francois Deschamps Sound Effects Supervisor: Rene Beaudry / Sound Effects: Steve Wener Theme Song: Words- Arden Ryshpan & Music- Chris Crilly / Additional music: Chris Crilly Video Editor: Michel Forbes / Assisted by Joey Vekteris ©T.M.S. 1973 The copyright may be 1973 but Massey and Henderson don't have cartoon credits before the 80's; I assume the copyright is for the show, not the dub itself. Bobobobs came out in 1988 & is listed on the coming up schedule afterwards so Panda probably would have aired circa 1988/89. and been dubbed pretty close to that. |
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EricJ2
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It IS absolutely charming, Que Sera included. 
(And yes, does have the humor pace of the best classic 70's Film Board of Canada cartoons, although I'm not sure what weird stuff they're doing today.) Basically 4-koma hadn't really become a thing when Disney pumped out the dub on the Ghibli-deal assembly line, and US Ghibli fans didn't know what to make of it--They looked at the comic-strip design, said, "Eww, it looks funny, there's no story, and it's not Miyazaki!", and Disney quickly buried it as a red-headed stepchild. If you watch it today after a good 4-koma slice-of-life Strip-comedy like Azumanga Daioh, the genre comes down to whose isolated comic-strip gags are more incisive, original, and out of left-field. Azumanga's gags were, Lucky Star's...not so much, and Yamadas' are definitely up there with the GOOD ones. Like AzD, there's almost no need for cultural concerns, as apart from the Princess Kaguya and Kamen Rider gags, the family-observation gags come off so quirky and true-to-life for any country, you could show this to an anime newbie as first exposure and hook them. (I still love the gag where Grandma and her old childhood friend are out in the park, and as they do volunteer cleanup, in her friend's eyes, she starts turning back into the bossy 7-yo. he remembers: "You stay on your side, and I'll stay on my side!") |
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Neko-sensei
Posts: 283 |
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"you'll always see the similarities .0ghyywe all share."
Please do not correct this typo. It is beautifully surreal and must be preserved. |
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mewpudding101
Industry Insider
 Posts: 2206 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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What does "0ghyywe" mean?? animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2018-08-09/isao-takahata-endless-memories/part-vi-my-neighbors-the-yamadas/.135286 |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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^^
.0ghyywe is the antonym of covfefe. I watched Yamadas last night and I admit my remembered criticism of it being unrelatable to a non-Japanese audience is definitely wrong. It's better than I remember but I'm not sure I'd go as far as EricJ and say "you could show this to an anime newbie as first exposure and hook them." In essence its relatable but it's still a little foreign... noodles for a snack... daily shopping... a night-time bath to rejuvenate a person "the perfect breakfast"...the shame of accidentally wearing shoes in the house... The nature of Japanese gangs... Tiny tiny things that we as anime fans are used to and forget that others will see as a little odd. On repeat viewing though, I do see it's charms better but I think its biggest fault is simply one of length. The English dub reinforced its similarity to Charlie Brown Cartoons, simple little vignettes, but stretched out to nearly 2 hours with little connectivity. And yes, Charlie Brown has had "movies" but they are not really masterpieces and are connected by a theme. But Yamadas is like a sweet little short anime... marathoned. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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I haven't seen all of Yamadas but from what I have seen I agree that there's nothing unrelatable to a non-Japanese audience. Like EricJ2 posted it's not all that different from Azumanga, and that certainly did well outside of Japan. I think that Yamadas (and Azumanga) and similar 4-koma shows--or even "slice of life" sort of shows--always have a big chance of not resonating with a particular viewer. Because they are so basic and rely on either interesting characters or humor I can see how someone might not care for them if they don't find the characters interesting or the humor isn't to their taste. Personally, I don't really care for Yamadas. I don't find the art to be appealing and the characters don't grab me...though I suspect things would be different if I had grown up reading the 4koma. I enjoyed Azumanga because I liked the art style despite its simplicity, and I also thought the characters were engaging...but I'm sure there are others out there who have the opposite view. It's not as if those programs have a complex plot or some deep meaning that can appeal to people who don't care for the art or the jokes. |
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