Forum - View topic
EP. REVIEW: Fate/Grand Order Absolute Demonic Front: Babylonia


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
zrnzle500
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3629
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:06 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
What I mean is that I find a lot of characters in FGO garbage and the most direct cause of that is the business model that forces prioritizing selling points over characterization as part of a narrative. People roll for those characters not after they've read the story and found them entertaining and well written, but because their tits (or abs) are showing. Not because they have an interesting backstory or internal world, but because they're a loli and call 'you' onii-chan.
I am not trying to make a sharp contrast with previous works, lord knows they have had a lot of wasted characters, but FGO makes the problem worse.


I think there's more to it than that. Like you mentioned before, their usefulness in the game is going to be a consideration, especially for free players looking to use their quartz wisely. While you might roll for original characters before they have read the story, you certainly could have read (or watched) the story of characters who come from other parts of the franchise (and other Type Moon works). Some are in a different form than they appear in their source material, yes, (especially masters), but others are as they appear there. And this isn't even getting into rolling for characters when they become available in events after they were originally introduced or players who have played the Japanese version who are playing the North American version as well.

Though, ultimately I don't think it is all that different from games that you buy as a whole. You would still be buying it before you have read those characters' stories, and character design is definitely something producers of games (and other mediums) use to bring people in the door. While you can certainly get people in the door that way, you need to make their stories at least entertaining and interesting to keep people coming back for more, and that applies just as much to mobile games as any other medium. The difference between mobile games and more traditional games in this regard is that the "coming back for more" part is done within the same game, instead of through sequels you have to go out and buy. I think at least part of the reason that F/GO has been so successful and lasted as long as it has is that it has used the characters it has made and brought together to tell stories that players have found interesting and entertaining, and even well written (though perhaps not all equally so).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:44 am Reply with quote
lossthief wrote:

Now compare that to Mash's constant wedgie or whatever the heck you'd call Ushiwakamaru's getup, and I think it's fair to say there's been a shift in creative priorities.
Or heck, just put the two Rins side by side


Yeah, left one is an average magus girl and right one is a goddess of love and war. Ancient mesopotamians even depicted her naked, so nothing wrong with her lewd character design. Would be rather stupid to see her in modern dress or even in sumerian common outfit.

And I don't see any problem with fanservice - e.g. I love Monogatari anime series and it's one of the most fanservice heavy anime. So, "wedgie" is not an issue, unless it's done good and accompanied with good characters/story/animations etc.
jl07045 wrote:
What I mean is that I find a lot of characters in FGO garbage and the most direct cause of that is the business model that forces prioritizing selling points over characterization as part of a narrative.

People roll for those characters not after they've read the story and found them entertaining and well written, but because their tits (or abs) are showing. Not because they have an interesting backstory or internal world, but because they're a loli and call 'you' onii-chan.
I am not trying to make a sharp contrast with previous works, lord knows they have had a lot of wasted characters, but FGO makes the problem worse.

1) >prioritizing selling points over characterization as part of a narrative
Characterization is one of the selling points in FGO! Every servant has a story behind it, character, things they enjoy and dislike etc. And servants usually released with story to back them - event or story chapter. Sometimes devs release an old character that players were waiting for: Ereshkigal, Da Vinci, Sherlock Holmes, Sitonai, etc. Sometimes they don't release those characters at all, like Muramasa or Agravain. Sometimes they don't release a character for years, because they want to implement them in story - e.g. Ganesha.

2) You don't understand - some people just enjoy the overall fgo content and this is why they're ready to threw money for a new character. Basically, this is like new cards in MTG or Hearthstone. A huge amount of people only roll characters they're interested in.
>they're a loli and call 'you' onii-chan
If it was that easy, a lot of other mobages would have a better revenue. Nope, people are interested in servants origin/story and this is why there's almost none characters unrelated to history. Personally, I was hyped for Anastasia servant, because I know her backstory and this is a first russian servant (Helena somewhat russian, but she's more related to american history). Something that was a dream 10 years ago, when people wrote a servants ideas themselves became a reality thanks to FGO and I'm glad it happened.
P.s. Another proof that people do care about servants origin and how it could be used in a good way.


Last edited by dark_bozu on Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1499
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:59 am Reply with quote
@zrnzle500
Cast your net wider and look at other comparable, successful mobage. Kancolle, Azur Lane, Granblue, GFL, none of them have something you could call an interesting story. Granblue has a kind of generic fantasy going on, the others depend on their boats or guns being cute girls. Here it's not boats or guns, it's famous people and characters from previous TM works.

By comparison, yes, FGO puts much more effort into writing their stories to the point where currently I have to get through godawful amounts of fluff to move on with the story, but that's not what the success of the business model is based on.

Quote:
You don't understand - some people just enjoy the overall fgo content and this is why they're ready to threw money for a new character.

Both you and zrnzle enjoy the overall fgo content, yet you're f2p. I mean you could throw in 5 dollars, it wouldn't ruin you.
the other thing is that if you spend enough time in fgo forums you see that most talk about rolling happens way before those people would have had time to finish the stories those characters take part in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FilthyCasual



Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 1361
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am Reply with quote
dark_bozu wrote:
1) Grimdark story, I presume. Do you read Babylonia or Camelot?

2) Bruh, Nasu already confirmed that it's in a play test state. It would be released in 2020 (it's Tsuki 20th anniversary after all).
Yes, that's a lot of dead people. That doesn't answer my question in my slightest.

And I'm sure that you were just as certain it would release in a year when that CG of Arcueid came out in TM Ace. And when the 10th Anniversary hit. And when the 15th Anniversary hit. It's been over a decade since the remake was announced. It's dead. Kinoko 'I'm done with Fate' Nasu's words are empty. There is no remake until it sits on Akihabara shelves for sale.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:56 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:

By comparison, yes, FGO puts much more effort into writing their stories to the point where currently I have to get through godawful amounts of fluff to move on with the story, but that's not what the success of the business model is based on.

Both you and zrnzle enjoy the overall fgo content, yet you're f2p. I mean you could throw in 5 dollars, it wouldn't ruin you.
the other thing is that if you spend enough time in fgo forums you see that most talk about rolling happens way before those people would have had time to finish the stories those characters take part in.

1) It is. It's popular because of a huge lore that TM built thanks to FGO popularity and thier talents; stories they've wrote; characters that they've created.

2) I play on both JP and NA and while I spend money on JP, I didn't spend a dime on NA and this is why I could compare the experience of both sides - those who used their money and those who don't.

3) Yeah, because they already trust devs - they won't release a powercreep servant, those servants would have a good animations and new kits to play with. It's a single player game, the unit's power is mostly meaningless - you would be able to play just fine even with weak SSR servants.

FilthyCasual wrote:
Yes, that's a lot of dead people. That doesn't answer my question in my slightest.

And I'm sure that you were just as certain it would release in a year when that CG of Arcueid came out in TM Ace. And when the 10th Anniversary hit. And when the 15th Anniversary hit. It's been over a decade since the remake was announced. It's dead. Kinoko 'I'm done with Fate' Nasu's words are empty. There is no remake until it sits on Akihabara shelves for sale.

>What is FGO about besides fun?
>Grimdark story.

>I'm sure that you were just as certain it would release in a year when that CG of Arcueid came out in TM Ace
Nope, because they didn't said anything about release date or game state. Right now they've clearly stated that Tsuki in playtest state and Nasu hinted on Tsuki collab in 2020. 2020 is an year of Tsukihime, mark my words.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrisGer A.A.



Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Posts: 143
Location: 世田谷区 Setagaya Ward
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:11 am Reply with quote
I have been slowly working thru the entire series of FATE, about 2/3 thru now, and Unllimted Blade Works is the best. This new season is the worst. I am sorry but it is a pale shadow of what I hoped for. the Prequels were much better. Part of the problem is the wholesale use of crummy CGI for most of the animation . I thought this studio had experts and a great staff but they seem to have been bypassed. The scale of the figures, each one a sort of Kapow, and then ..whats next...the scale is off. We get momentary interest in meeting these new people but the link back to the Laboratory/Outpost is thin and Leonardo Da Vinci the Lady is really poorly done so that does not help.

I was so hopeful. Well I have learned in many decades of work in anime any series can go good or bad, and this sadly is hardly worth following. I love the series i love much of what has been done and i really loved the early phases of this new arc but now...it is a flop. maybe they will fix it but ....not good so far. and I hate to have had to say all of this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 am Reply with quote
CrisGer A.A. wrote:
use of crummy CGI for most of the animation

There's a low usage of CGI and most of it used on background characters/monsters that don't have any role in scene - basically to avoid a still scene. And a lot of studios use it, especially in a works with huge amount of characters, like Vinland Saga. What's important is not a CGI existence in anime, but if it ruins the scene or not. E.g., Golden Kamuy - they've used a 2d animation with CGI bear and it looks horrible. In Babylonia none of CGI was used with 2d animations - whenever there's a fight with mobs, they're always hand-drawn. And using CGI to make shot more lively is much more better compare to using a still drawning.
Most of animations were done by talented staff, like this scene, or this one, or this, or this.


Last edited by dark_bozu on Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:49 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1499
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:49 am Reply with quote
dark_bozu wrote:
3) Yeah, because they already trust devs - they won't release a powercreep servant, those servants would have a good animations and new kits to play with. It's a single player game, the unit's power is mostly meaningless - you would be able to play just fine even with weak SSR servants.


Why, thank you. This together with your example with Anastasia lends more credence to my argument that people roll for servants not because of their treatment in the story of FGO but based on checklist characteristics (released in previews) and connection to some external fetish quality - owning Napoleon, or, in other mobage, USS Iowa or M1 Garand. Or simply being in previous stories.

Quote:
It is. It's popular because of a huge lore that TM built thanks to FGO popularity and thier talents; stories they've wrote; characters that they've created.

That could explain why it's popular, not why many people are willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:59 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:

Why, thank you. This together with your example with Anastasia lends more credence to my argument that people roll for servants not because of their treatment in the story of FGO but based on checklist characteristics (released in previews) and connection to some external fetish quality - owning Napoleon, or USS Iowa or M1 Garand.


That could explain why it's popular, not why many people are willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on it.

1) Nope, I was hyped to see her in Nasuverse, in FGO story. And because I know her story, it's even more interesting - I was curious about TM version of Anastasia in the first place. If I would summon or won't is much less important question.

2) People tend to spend money on series/things they love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1499
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:03 am Reply with quote
I asked you why people are willing to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on a mobile game even one they like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:22 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
I asked you why people are willing to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on a mobile game even one they like.

They like it, enjoy it and think it worth of investment - are there should be any other reasons? FGO just have a lot of dedicated fans in Japan, that are ready to spend money on mobage they're enjoy to play (FYI a lot of salarymans in Japan got a good paycheck, but work too much to have time to spend it - this is why mobages are so popular in Japan and why a lot of people spend money on them).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1499
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:38 pm Reply with quote
For starters, they are not spending money on things they like. They are spending money on a gambling mechanism in hopes of getting the things they like.
Why not instead put a specific prize for every single character? 2 reasons i can think of from the top of my head: 1) there's a risk that the person realizes that they're not willing to spend a 3 or 4 digit number on a very small part of the game if the information is upfront; 2) gambler's fallacy - people tend to misunderstand the odds and often impulsively pay more than they intended.

So why they are willing to spend so much?
1. Because they consider that worth of investment? Sure, some may, maybe a lot. The next question to those people is why do they think it's a good investment if they could buy all the rest of Typemoon works combined for the amount they've spent on FGO. Is it so much better? When I've seen people being asked this type of question, many become evasive. Sunk cost fallacy comes up sometimes.
2. Because they are misled by a lack of information on how much it costs. There's a teensy tiny button on the gacha page that you can push to find out what are the odds of getting that or another card. SSR Servant on rateup is 0.7% per roll iirc. Gambler's fallacy makes people believe that somehow the odds increase the more they roll, but of course it's always 0.7% per roll. Originally developers didn't disclose the odds at all, but there was a push to force the industry to reveal them.
3. Because they are prone to addiction or impulse shoppers who have trouble keeping their spending under control.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JustinTaco



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 116
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:16 pm Reply with quote
Eddy564 wrote:
FilthyCasual wrote:
Eddy564 wrote:
Although, why did you state you wouldn’t recommend the Fate GO game?
Because it's an exploitative cesspit where each and every narrative aspect is fine-tuned to enable mindless consumption.

Anyways pretty anime, if shallow.


I suppose that’s somewhat valid if you wanted to be absolutely cynical about it. But when you break down a lot of games you’ll come to the same conclusion. That is precisely why I don’t think about the entertainment medium from that point of view.


"Everything in the entire world is exactly the same"

dark_bozu wrote:
lossthief wrote:

Now compare that to Mash's constant wedgie or whatever the heck you'd call Ushiwakamaru's getup, and I think it's fair to say there's been a shift in creative priorities.
Or heck, just put the two Rins side by side


Yeah, left one is an average magus girl and right one is a goddess of love and war. Ancient mesopotamians even depicted her naked, so nothing wrong with her lewd character design. Would be rather stupid to see her in modern dress or even in sumerian common outfit.


Ah, yes, Fate, known for it's painstaking attention to historical accuracy. It just so happens they become extra accurate when it involves tits.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ncikz



Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:27 pm Reply with quote
The Fate franchise is terrible and I'm honestly sick of seeing ANN handwaving their own criticisms to ultimately come to the conclusion that yes, the massively popular series that pays them a lot in ad revenue and one which they could never go against the public opinion of, is indeed great despite these criticisms and you should all continue to support it. Especially when oftentimes their reviewers are pretty critical of pandering, fanservice, mishandling of female characters. None of that matters if Fate brings in the big bucks. I hope this isn't considered "impolite" per Teh Rules but I probably won't mind if it gets removed as long as a mod sees it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
lossthief



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 675
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:13 pm Reply with quote
ncikz wrote:
The Fate franchise is terrible and I'm honestly sick of seeing ANN handwaving their own criticisms to ultimately come to the conclusion that yes, the massively popular series that pays them a lot in ad revenue and one which they could never go against the public opinion of, is indeed great despite these criticisms and you should all continue to support it. Especially when oftentimes their reviewers are pretty critical of pandering, fanservice, mishandling of female characters. None of that matters if Fate brings in the big bucks. I hope this isn't considered "impolite" per Teh Rules but I probably won't mind if it gets removed as long as a mod sees it.


Buddy if you think ANN's editorial crew has some long-standing reputation of being nice about Fate stuff, I invite you to read through the longest, dumbest, argumentiest thread in forum history
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group