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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:59 pm Reply with quote
While there were certainly many vocal people on ANN white knighting the possibility that this live-action Bebop remake could be any good all along, I think it was fairly obvious to anyone with an eye for cinema that the warning signs were there from day one that this would be nothing but a trainwreck.
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:00 pm Reply with quote
As I've stated in numerous topics, I feel the best live-action adaptations of anime have been the ones that have the integrity to translate the essence, rather than copy/paste a color-by-numbers attempt at glorified cosplay. Oldboy and Road to Perdition (in a roundabout way) being my go-to examples. Bebop itself is a title that captured lightning in a bottle by doing the same, paying homage to the essence of everything it was emulating while having the integrity and creative freedom to riff up its own original being. And so it's incredibly ironic that this live-action adaptation fails so hard in taking away that key lesson. Then again, from what I've been reading (and from what I've seen), it fails to understand absolutely every other aspect of the show that made it work as well, so it's hardly surprising.

Last edited by Spoofer on Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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RockSplash



Joined: 28 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:39 pm Reply with quote
Spoofer wrote:
While there were certainly many vocal people on ANN white knighting the possibility that this live-action Bebop remake could be any good all along, I think it was fairly obvious to anyone with an eye for cinema that the warning signs were there from day one that this would be nothing but a trainwreck.


As one of those that said that it could have been good, I have no regrets. I want to personally watch it for myself, but I really don't like what I am hearing. Recently the actor for Gren spoke about the character, and they sounded noicably uncomfortable with the original version of Gren. They said that the character was too negative. But Bebop(Jupiter Jazz specifically) is not a happy story at all. If you don't feel comfortable adapting that. Please do not do Bebop.

However, I still say that we should not be ostracized for daring to wait and see if something could be good. The argument that LA adaptions will always be bad, to me, is because a lack of care and respect for the source material. As soon as manga gets a director and writer that passionatly loves the material like Marvel or DC has, then we will get some really good adaptions.
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Nom De Plume De Fanboy
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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Location: inland US west, pretty rural
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:57 pm Reply with quote
I don't remember, did somebody pick up Black Lotus for reviews? And if they didn't, could some nice person start a review thread in the Series Discussion Forum, pretty please?

This screwy season, with some shows starting late and others from last season ending their runs in this season, is driving me a little nuts...
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:35 pm Reply with quote
I wanted Bebop to be good, I really did, but it seems once again the naysayers are proven correct. And that's...not a good feeling.

As for Black Lotus, I have a feeling that everyone would have been much kinder towards it and its CG had Arcane not debuted a few weeks earlier and without hyperbole, raised the bar for what 3DCG could be seen as doing. It's like going back to the old Land of the Lost dinosaurs after watching Jurassic Park. The bar has been raised, through no fault of the other show.
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lightturner



Joined: 07 Aug 2021
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:41 pm Reply with quote
I have not watched the live-action show, but it sounds as if everyone's fears came true.

RockSplash wrote:
As one of those that said that it could have been good, I have no regrets. I want to personally watch it for myself, but I really don't like what I am hearing. Recently the actor for Gren spoke about the character, and they sounded noicably uncomfortable with the original version of Gren. They said that the character was too negative. But Bebop(Jupiter Jazz specifically) is not a happy story at all. If you don't feel comfortable adapting that. Please do not do Bebop.

However, I still say that we should not be ostracized for daring to wait and see if something could be good. The argument that LA adaptions will always be bad, to me, is because a lack of care and respect for the source material. As soon as manga gets a director and writer that passionatly loves the material like Marvel or DC has, then we will get some really good adaptions.


You're talking as if Marvel and DC movies haven't changed things in a similar way due to social and political concerns. It's a systemic problem with all Hollywood adaptions in their quest to appeal to the widest mainstream audience possible.
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charliepanayi



Joined: 17 Jul 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:20 am Reply with quote
lightturner wrote:
I have not watched the live-action show, but it sounds as if everyone's fears came true.

RockSplash wrote:
As one of those that said that it could have been good, I have no regrets. I want to personally watch it for myself, but I really don't like what I am hearing. Recently the actor for Gren spoke about the character, and they sounded noicably uncomfortable with the original version of Gren. They said that the character was too negative. But Bebop(Jupiter Jazz specifically) is not a happy story at all. If you don't feel comfortable adapting that. Please do not do Bebop.

However, I still say that we should not be ostracized for daring to wait and see if something could be good. The argument that LA adaptions will always be bad, to me, is because a lack of care and respect for the source material. As soon as manga gets a director and writer that passionatly loves the material like Marvel or DC has, then we will get some really good adaptions.


You're talking as if Marvel and DC movies haven't changed things in a similar way due to social and political concerns. It's a systemic problem with all Hollywood adaptions in their quest to appeal to the widest mainstream audience possible.


MCU films aren't an issue because they try to be inclusive or because of identity politics, they're an issue because they've basically consumed the market in terms of what gets shown and distributed etc and mid to low-budget original films have been shafted as a result.

As for Cowboy Bebop, just more evidence that direct adaptations of anime are a bad idea and you're just best off taking themes/concepts from them (Firefly, Inception, Black Swan and Chronicle are all much better than any actual live-action remakes of Cowboy Bebop, Paprika, Perfect Blue and Akira would be)
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:39 am Reply with quote
There's an interesting video interview where the Cowboy Bebop English voice cast saying they want to be in the live-action series somewhere

'Cowboy Bebop' Voice Cast Reflect on Anime's 20-Year Legacy and 'Want In' on Live Action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dubIn-JgPxc

Excerpts:

Quote:
Blum admitted he hoped Netflix could one day "put us in it somewhere," and Lee added: "Like he said, we want in!"

Billingslea agreed with the pair, and Fahn went one step further by suggesting they could put "a bounty on [them]" in a future episode.


Blum went on: "Back in those days we weren't sure if anything would fly, and sometimes we took a really negative hit for [it] because we were 'messing with the artform,' it was the subbers versus dubbers back then.

"This was such a breakthrough show because it allowed us to go to conventions safely, I think. Prior to that I had my life threatened by otaku [obsessive fans] who couldn't accept a dubbed product, and this show was really ground-breaking in that respect, and it opened the whole world to us."


Billingslea said of the live-action: "It's generated interest in the anime, that's really cool. People are re-watching it now and people are introducing their nieces and nephews, sons and daughters to it, so I think it's something to extend the life of the anime, which is cool."


Lee added: "I think because the score is like a cast member we were all approaching our roles with some musicality, cadence, pacing, tone.

Going on to speak about Faye, who can be seen as being defined by her sex appeal, Lee said she felt "protective" of the character because she knew girls like her in real life, and found it freeing to portray someone like her.

"I knew those girls, I ran with those girls, and those girls were like groupies and superstars, not that I was. But, I knew those girls had power and respect for their sex appeal, and that femme fatale quality that Faye has.
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BonusStage



Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:28 am Reply with quote
RockSplash wrote:
Recently the actor for Gren spoke about the character, and they sounded noicably uncomfortable with the original version of Gren. They said that the character was too negative. But Bebop(Jupiter Jazz specifically) is not a happy story at all. If you don't feel comfortable adapting that. Please do not do Bebop.


No company would ever make adaptions if they did that. They see popular IPs and they want a cut of that profit, even if said IP goes against their ideology or beliefs.
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garfield15



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:08 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I'm not surprised. Another notch on the failed adaptation bar. Just as an anime fan, I've never understood why people even want to go so hard for a live action adaptation to be good, put aside how much they actually do. Like what's the goal? For anime to be more popular and recognized? Maybe like 10 years ago but it's 2021, we're already there. There's nothing an LA can do for the industry that it's already doing for itself. People need to realize western studios and Netflix only see anime as a well to tap for IPs so that people can go "I recognize thing" like the YA novel movie craze, not to actually do a good job.

I mean, not even Japan hits home all the time with their own live action, so what on Earth could the Western market hope to accomplish better? More budget?

Spoofer wrote:
As I've stated in numerous topics, I feel the best live-action adaptations of anime have been the ones that have the integrity to translate the essence, rather than copy/paste a color-by-numbers attempt at glorified cosplay. Oldboy and Road to Perdition (in a roundabout way) being my go-to examples. Bebop itself is a title that captured lightning in a bottle by doing the same, paying homage to the essence of everything it was emulating while having the integrity and creative freedom to riff up its own original being. And so it's incredibly ironic that this live-action adaptation fails so hard in taking away that key lesson. Then again, from what I've been reading (and from what I've seen), it fails to understand absolutely every other aspect of the show that made it work as well, so it's hardly surprising.

Can I add Speed Racer to that list?
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RockSplash



Joined: 28 Oct 2019
Posts: 343
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:17 pm Reply with quote
garfield15 wrote:
Yeah I'm not surprised. Another notch on the failed adaptation bar. Just as an anime fan, I've never understood why people even want to go so hard for a live action adaptation to be good, put aside how much they actually do. Like what's the goal? For anime to be more popular and recognized? Maybe like 10 years ago but it's 2021, we're already there. There's nothing an LA can do for the industry that it's already doing for itself. People need to realize western studios and Netflix only see anime as a well to tap for IPs so that people can go "I recognize thing" like the YA novel movie craze, not to actually do a good job.

I mean, not even Japan hits home all the time with their own live action, so what on Earth could the Western market hope to accomplish better? More budget?


I feel we need to adapt series that never had even a good anime adaption. Gunsmith cats never got much past an OVA, and Baccano, while a decent adaption, fails at telling the story properly by taking 4 different novels and chopping them up in terns of both content and story. I think Baccano would be better as a live action series personally, given Narita is heavily inspired by Tarentinto and Scorsese. Hell, I think Gun dam has a chance given they have said they are not going to be adapting any one storyline. I think more live action adaptions should try to be there own thing. Serve as a spinoff rather than a recreation of the original. Gantz is announced, and that series has an American Team that we never see. They could easily attach it, and give it its own identity.

Really, I think we need to adapt more series that have had poor adaptions. Just like how Marvel previously had few good tv shows and movies. Side note: I understand where you come from for the IP thing, but as I stated to someone else, we need someone who actually cares about the material to adapt it. Alita had Cameron, and he heavily cared for that series(another one that previously only had an OVA).
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 522
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:48 pm Reply with quote
garfield15 wrote:
Yeah I'm not surprised. Another notch on the failed adaptation bar. Just as an anime fan, I've never understood why people even want to go so hard for a live action adaptation to be good, put aside how much they actually do. Like what's the goal? For anime to be more popular and recognized? Maybe like 10 years ago but it's 2021, we're already there. There's nothing an LA can do for the industry that it's already doing for itself. People need to realize western studios and Netflix only see anime as a well to tap for IPs so that people can go "I recognize thing" like the YA novel movie craze, not to actually do a good job.

I mean, not even Japan hits home all the time with their own live action, so what on Earth could the Western market hope to accomplish better? More budget?


The same reason anything gets a live-action American adaption, they think it'll surpass the original. To their credit, it's happened plenty of times in the past. Most movie-going Americans will not watch foreign films, so remaking things like The Ring and The Grudge objectively gave them more reach than simply releasing the original films in theaters. Likewise, live-action adaptions of cartoons and comics are appealing to people who do not read comics and people who think animation is only for kids and any serious story would be in live-action. For all the hate it got, The Last Airbender made a decent amount of money, and the Transformers films success speak for themselves.

The difference and main reason why I think anime adaptions have and will always fail at replicating this success is that manga and anime sell extremely well already. They're established hobbies and booming industries already. There's not a lot of people who will refuse to watch an anime or read a manga and instead would just settle for a Americanized live-action adaption like with superhero comics or foreign films.
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RockSplash



Joined: 28 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:51 pm Reply with quote
The same reason anything gets a live-action American adaption, they think it'll surpass the original. To their credit, it's happened plenty of times in the past. Most movie-going Americans will not watch foreign films, so remaking things like The Ring and The Grudge objectively gave them more reach than simply releasing the original films in theaters. Likewise, live-action adaptions of cartoons and comics are appealing to people who do not read comics and people who think animation is only for kids and any serious story would be in live-action. For all the hate it got, The Last Airbender made a decent amount of money, and the Transformers films success speak for themselves.

The difference and main reason why I think anime adaptions have and will always fail at replicating this success is that manga and anime sell extremely well already. They're established hobbies and booming industries already. There's not a lot of people who will refuse to watch an anime or read a manga and instead would just settle for a Americanized live-action adaption like with superhero comics or foreign films.[/quote]

I wonder if the success of foreign films and stuff like squid game will make the idea of Japan-USA collaborations possible. Imagine if we could get a Japanese adaption, with Japanese actors, but produced with hollywood money. I know its an extremely low chance of happening, but it could have a chance.
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The Not so Chosen One



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 246
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:31 am Reply with quote
Lol I knew this show was gonna be horrible, that the show was miscast, and that bringing Yoko Kanno to do the soundtrack was just a gimmick, and an overused one at that. It's a Netflix show, I don't know why people here were expecting better quality that what was already shown in the teasers.

Hell, even the LA Avatar show they're making is having a better time casting actors that can look like their animated counterparts. I have more faith in that, but honestly not much since it's still a Netflix show, than in Cowboy Bebop now knowing what I know, or the One Piece LA one.

And what a great take Lynzee had on Faye; I knew she looked and sounded like your basic Joss Whedon-type quippy girl who thinks is very snarky and smarter than your average person, but just comes off as inmature and arrogant.
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earl.m



Joined: 04 Nov 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:14 am Reply with quote
lightturner wrote:


You're talking as if Marvel and DC movies haven't changed things in a similar way due to social and political concerns. It's a systemic problem with all Hollywood adaptions in their quest to appeal to the widest mainstream audience possible.


There is no evidence at all that it actually widens appeal, whether domestic or international. Instead, what evidence does exist is to the contrary. Don't get me wrong, I am no segregationist. Nonwhite, nonmale people need equal opportunity to be directors, screenwriters, producers, studio chiefs and of course actors and actresses. But that is because it is - in the United States - required by the Civil Rights Act as well as being simply moral. But the idea that it widens the audience is false. Not a single black person watched Cowboy Bebop to see a black Jet Black. No Asians watched Cowboy Bebop because of a Korean Spike Spiegel. And no, finding a young Christina Hendricks or Salma Hayek to put in Faye Valentine's original outfit wouldn't have driven off female viewers.

Hollywood does this in response to pressure from activists, and the media critics that have adopted activist ideology (which is all of them). The funny thing: these activists are not trying to widen appeal. Instead, they want the opposite. The activists are progressive or left-liberal, and they view the mainstream - especially in the United States - as bigoted: racist, misogynistic, Islamophobic etc. They believe that an entertainment industry that gives the mainstream what they want as catering to evil for profit. They believe that Hollywood should be subversive or outright hostile to mainstream audiences, and that if this results in entertainment going bankrupt because of not enough people buying video games and movie tickets or watching TV shows, then that is just all the more evidence that America and its system sucks.

So, what Netflix was primarily concerned with avoiding was whitewashing accusations from the people that bashed casting white actors and actresses in the Ghost in the Shell and Death Note adaptations. And after that misogyny ones from the same crowd that bashes anime fanservice. The obvious solution would have been to use a Japanese-American cast to the maximum extent possible. Problem: this is a western adaptation, not a Japanese production. But here's the thing: whitewashing is only opposed because it uses white actors and actresses to increase profits. Meaning that so long as you don't use white characters in the protagonist roles then it is OK.

That is why where Scarlett Johansson playing a (according to the source material) "generic female design" robot launched countless "Hollywood white supremacy" think pieces, the Netflix Death Note adaptation received the same despite changing the setting to Seattle but casting Rose Salazar as Battle Angel: Alita - who in the source material was Gally, absolutely not Hispanic and even looked very much Japanese - didn't raise a peep. Based on that, Netflix casts Spike Spiegel, Jet Black and Faye Valentine as Asian, black and Hispanic because casting a white person in any of those roles would have created a meltdown in progressive social media and critic circles. A similar meltdown among actual fans of the property? Not only are they willing to encounter that, but the current mindset is that provoking that is a good thing.

Oh yeah, speaking of Battle Angel: Alita, while the OVA gained a huge cult following in America it bombed in Japan, which is why only 2 of the originally planned 4 OVAs were completed. The Japanese audience ACTUALLY WANTED a curvier protagonist as well as more fanservice. If you look at the more successful OVAs from that era, you will see that trend. The American entertainment industry responds to its critics where the Japanese and South Korean ones respond to its audiences. Which is why My Hero Academia alone outsells Marvel and DC in America, and if we have any American male pop acts left they have no chance of competing with BTS.
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