Forum - View topicREVIEW: Fruits Basket -prelude-
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 606 |
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You know there is an entire ocean of nuance between "I am totally unbothered by anything fictional" and "fiction = reality," right?
The reason is pretty simple: they were written by different people. And do you know what that saying means? Because it's not even a little bit applicable here. I am curious of what that list was, though! |
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Alexis.Anagram
 Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
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The problem I have with this review, and which might echo what others are trying to articulate, is that it doesn't really feel as though it engages with the material in an especially meaningful way. It's understandable if the subjective relationship Caitlin or any other viewer has towards the age-gap element of the story is one of skepticism or disbelief, but it doesn't render an effective critique of the various ideas that are contained within it. To borrow the spirit of Caitlin's own characterization of the clip show preface, this is the level of commentary that can be found in any Reddit post or Tumblr blog, bereft of the kind of real, credible insight one would hope to find in a professional entry into the discourse around this show. "The age gap is icky" is a pretty consistent refrain by now, and I think this review could have been a lot stronger if it actually considered and promoted conversation around why it was done, what was Takaya's authorial intent in framing one of the central romances and tragedies of the series using this literary device, how does it color in Kyoko's personal history (to what extent is it consistent or discordant with who she is or appears to be, both from her own internal mindset and from Tohru's perspective-- and what sort of weight do Katsuya's actions have in shaping who she is and who she decides to be as an adult and a parent, for better or for worse?) and ultimately what reverberations does it carry through the rest of the narrative.
These questions are central to this film's value and it's reasonable to arrive at a negative conclusion about any of them, or to be generally disinclined towards the decisions Takaya made with this particular chapter, but I think what folks are trying to express is that it's disheartening to see the age-gap "problem" scapegoated yet again as an excuse not to discuss the actual story at hand. Given everything that occurs over the span of Kyoko's young life, it seems mightily reductive to repeatedly filter it through the lens of "what's *your* personal squick threshold" and more to the point it doesn't add anything new or really worthwhile to the conversation. But actually, I find the review most...unfathomable as it regards this set of propositions:
Kyoko approaches and forms a relationship with Kyo not for "no reason," but because she sees herself in him, and in extending an act of kindness and vulnerability towards a young person she correctly perceives as feeling alienated and lonely, she's paying forward the spirit of loving openness she inherited from her time with Katsuya. The connection they form represents the only point of reference Kyo has for what a life lived outside of the confines of the Sohma family could possibly look like, importantly reinforcing one of the series' central themes that the most empathic conceptions of community go beyond the barriers imposed by our own households, or the ones we impose upon ourselves as individuals: Kyo is initially hesitant to even interact with Kyoko because he has already learned that trusting others is fraught, but in permitting himself to be present with her, to learn about her and see the world from the perspective of somebody else, he begins to crack the door open on the possibility that his dream of ascending within the poisonous hierarchy of the Sohmas is not the only way to achieve a sense of self-worth. Because Kyoko doesn't hold back in relating her history to him, she models the resilience that stems from living for the sake of another: she tells him about Tohru because Tohru is her ray of hope, in the same way that, for that brief moment, Kyoko becomes his. Of course, that's all dashed when Yuki once again beats Kyo to the punch, undermining and embarrassing him just as Kyo thought he was on the precipice of proving something essential about himself and being seen as something more than a failure, which drives his embitterment as he finally concludes that the only way to "win" is to become the better Sohma. The contrivance is there to add the question of fate and a certain cosmological intent to the events of the series: does the Curse break arbitrarily as a matter of coincidence, or due to the invisible hand of God, or is it some confluence of the two? This is deliberately kept obscure but it's an important point of contradiction that comes back again and again in the series: to what extents are the characters actually in control of their own actions and the events as they are playing out? That's not just a speculative contention: Kyoko's death happens with Kyo as its witness specifically because it prompts the reader to confront this problem. For most of the series, Kyoko's death is related as an "accident" which couldn't have been avoided, but the secret burden that Kyo is harboring throughout the entire series and which informs every single decision he makes, especially as it pertains to his relationship with Tohru, is that he firmly believes he could have stopped it. He sees the incident as a consequence of his own cowardice which is rooted in an easily defined, dichotomous choice: reach out and save this woman who, at one time, helped to save him, and risk himself in the process (this recalls and reframes the root conflict with "trusting" that characterized their earliest encounter, layering meanings like nobody's business), or let things take their course and watch her die. That's an unfair choice at best, but it could just as easily be argued that there was no choice at all: that what prevented Kyo from acting in that moment was nothing less than the conditioning he had endured all his life, forcing him into a box wherein reaching out to anybody else, for any reason, was a totally remote impossibility--a box which was effectively sealed the moment Kyo "lost" to Yuki in bringing Tohru home, *again* reiterating and presenting a thematic consequence stemming his and Kyoko's shared history. In this context, it's not Kyo who kills Kyoko, nor is it the truck driver, nor is it some "accident" of chance: it's the Curse itself. And it's in that context that Tohru's heroism in helping to end the cycle of violence perpetrated by the Curse ought to be understood; there is just so much thematic richness to this moment, including the fact that Kyoko dies while restating the importance of Kyo's promise to her, which Kyo mistakenly interprets as a kind of curse-- forming an inverse echo with the actual Curse, which began as a divine promise. I think it's pretty indisputable that it adds a great deal to the narrative, to Kyo's arc of emotional redemption, to the spirit of liberation which Kyoko represents in contrast with the condemnation embodied in the Sohma's "bonds," and to the mirrored sense of culpability and deeply embedded guilt both Kyo and Tohru feel around this pivotal event and which they have to overcome in order to find themselves and be together. Annnnyhow, I'm sorry I won't be able to see the Prelude in theaters due to unfortunate timing </3 but I do hope its release signals that whatever impediments have blocked Furuba from getting its final releases out here are over and done with now. I have umm, problems with the third season and I think in retrospect this reboot was handled pretty questionably from the beginning but as ever there is just such a bounty of beauty to be encountered with this story. |
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louis6578
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I can't add much since it seems my opinion is the same as everyone else's. I think that while it's okay for everyone to feel how they do, the reviewer for this particular film probably should've been someone more open to the themes of the narrative. As it stands, it's not like the review itself only harped on that one point, though I have to wonder just how much the taboo romance brought it down for the reviewer.
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2262 Location: Online Terminal |
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Who would know what the themes of the narrative are and how they specifically play out without watching the thing first? There is no such thing as an objective review of media. There are certainly aspects of a production that have clear indicators of quality vs not, but ultimately the reviewer is there to judge a work, and that is always going to be subjective. As an aside, I feel like if I get "hung up" on one particular aspect of a piece of media, that usually means the rest of it wasn't very good, so I don't think the reviewer getting hung up on the relationship dynamics is just further evidence that the movie's not good. When I see something along the lines of "the reviewer wasn't objective enough," what I really see is "the reviewer's biases didn't line up with my own, so the reviewer is clearly wrong." |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 513 Location: Poland |
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I disagree here, I have no problem with reviewer having problem with relations of 15 year old and her 23 year old teacher, considering this was only part of review and it wasn't cast as absolute damnation, at least it didn't feel like it to me. I hadn't watched that movie yet, but I can understand wanting one of the AFAIK best relationships in this story be a little less weird. Still, I have one thing to add about "unsafe" fantasies. I think we should also remember that "unsafe" doesn't automatically mean evil. While it's understandable to be alarmed about teacher and his middle-schooler student couple, especially considering too many real life cases of predatory teachers, I've seen many times people being squicked out by this or that age-gap couple in manga, especially if with high-schooler, and other people commenting their parents or grandparents had met in similar way and age-gap, with me myself also knowing similar example that worked out great. And of course there is always Macron's wife. I don't mean we should be as a society (though we are speaking now about many countries, each with different society - many of those I mentioned were from SEA or SouthAm, and there is also difference between generations) return to having no problem with that stuff, since "unsafe" often ends up badly, especially for the vulnerable younger partner, so the opprobrium is there for a reason, especially for a position of trust like a teacher, but there are also cases of it working out, and perhaps author even based their story on similar case from their experience. Of course, I understand being wary of positive depiction in fiction, especially if someone thinks society is already too lenient resulting in cases of abuse they experienced or heard about, but it's a more complicated than just "fantasy-fine, reality-bad". A lot depends on author presenting the "unsafe" story in a way than can convince reader to believe the relationship can work and not be abusive. Naturally, it's a high bar to convince readers to a middle-schooler X teacher couple. I'd need to watch this to see if it can convince me to be fine with it, but I'm sceptical. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Can you please stop outright lying? I wrote The List for almost ten years. At no point did I ever declare an incest couple one of the "top five romances" in anime. What you're possibly incorrectly describing is the inclusion of Koi Kaze here: animenewsnetwork.com/the-list/2012-10-27 Where it's #8 and not being weighed against "all romance ever," completely nullifying the point you're trying to make. |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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The movie is based on source material that the reviewer is obviously familiar with. Yes, a movie is a different medium than manga, but the story being told is (ideally, for its fans) going to be roughly similar to what already exists.
I think this is true, to an extent, but IMO the job of a reviewer that finds themselves in this situation is to make a case as to why this theme is discordant with what the material is trying to accomplish. It shouldn't be held as self-evident that "[X] is bad in real life, movie contains [X], therefore movie is bad." Does it portray the age gap relationship in too saccharine a way? Does it imply that the only reason Katsuya reached out to help Kyoko was romantic interest? Does it undercut the genuine help he gave her by accidentally implying sexual attraction to her as the main motivating force? All of the above? None of the above? I can't tell from the review. I have a list of things he did with her, but no context on how those things come across as a viewer. As the review stands, I feel like I know more about the reviewer than what they watched. When people say they want someone that "likes the source material," I don't think they're saying all they want is a positive review. They want a reviewer that's going to enter into watching something with good faith and can articulate a work's failings without it coming across as though they wanted to rip into it from the onset because of the premise itself. |
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capt_bunny
 Posts: 364 |
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Actually, that's not the list. I didn't even know about that list. The couple on the list was featuring about two siblings that were once lovers in the past and now together again. I didn't know you wrote the list too. Why aren't you talking about the majority of people disagreeing about how the review was done too? |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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I highly doubt that. Since when do people decide to NOT do things "because they know it's not okay"? That's just the opposite with some people. I promise you 100% of those teachers perfectly WELL know how wrong it is. Ignorace isn't the issue. Apathy is. Selfishness is. Knowing it's destructive for the minor they're abusing...but they do it anyway. And teenaged minors probably know it's wrong too...but they think they're in love so they don't care. Or they are too scared. Their abusers can manipulate them into how they want them to think and act, saying things like "You know I'm the only one who understands you; you'll never be happy without me" and similar BS. And even if the victims don't buy these lies and do everything they can to resist, they can sadly be overpowered by brute force. Do you think people who steal think it's okay to do? How about rapists? How about murderers? Nah, people who break the law know exactly what they are doing...and will keep doing it for their own reasons.
Ughhhhhhhh 
Can you please not demonize poor Katsuya like that? Katsuya did not "groom" Kyoko, okay? You're misusing that word entirely. "Grooming" is when an adult befriends a child with the INTENTION of having sex with them. This is not Katsuya and Kyoko's relationship. Katsuya did not go "Hey, she sure is hot so I'm gonna be friends with her and get her to trust meso I can totally sleep with her lol". He only wanted to help a broken girl put her life back together and they both ended up accidentally falling in love. He even got Kyoko's parents' permission to marry her. THAT was what happened. The same thing happened with HigeHiro too. And Marmalade Boy. And many other series. Because a very strong bond was formed through supporting each other emotionally and the two eventually realize they can't stand to be apart. Grooming isn't about that. It's never about that. Grooming is only about getting a minor accustomed to sexual abuse by pretending to be his/her friend and taking advantage of that trust. I freaking hate it when people use "groom" the wrong way. 
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StarDango
Posts: 92 |
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First off, cheers to Alexis.Anagram’s post. That was an excellent break down of Furuba’s themes and Kyo and Kyoko’s relationship.
I’d also like to point out the reason why there’s a lot of age-gap romances in Furuba in the first place. A post here said it’s likely cause Takaya was just young and then making quick assumptions about her education history and male editors and shojo (which I never heard of. I’d like to learn more so if you have any sources on this please direct me to them.) No. Why is it in the story? Cause Takaya likes age-gap romances. That’s it. She outright stated it if you read the little notes that came with the original published chapters. If her opinion had changed with age, she most likely would’ve asked the anime production team to make any adjustment she desired. Heck, the team was willing to listen to her to make new character designs that were different from the manga cause she wasn’t happy with her old art (Source: animenewsnetwork.com/news/2018-11-19/natsuki-takaya-full-comments-for-new-fruits-basket-anime/.139699). After her decisive fallout with the first anime and its director, she worked much closer with the new anime’s team. If SHE wanted to change the age gap, the team and scriptwriter would’ve more than likely worked with her to do so. But SHE didn’t. Why? Author appeal. That’s it. Author appeal. She likes these kinds of stories, so she wrote one of her own. It doesn’t get deeper than that. Creators write/draw what personally appeals to them, because often the story is for them first and others second. It’s like how there’s artists who love drawing big breasts. They don’t care what others have to say about it, social implications or if it’s what gets them attention. They just love drawing breasts. And Takaya, well, she just likes some romances with large age-gaps. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to just take it and like it. It’s understandable to not enjoy these kind of stories. But leave it at that. Don’t like the story. I’m just hoping no one jumps on Takaya to accuse her of encouraging REAL predatory behaviors (and worse) just cause of Kyoko and Katsuya or Uo and Kureno. Fantasies in fiction don’t often translate into a creator’s real life intentions, beliefs or endorsement. I’m on the boat that creators should not have to control their material just because there’s a risk an impressionable person might take them seriously. Responsibility lies in the audience as well. Otherwise we’ll have to be holding a lot of creators, like Stephen King, accountable for writing about more egregious things than a teacher-student romance. There’s also the cultural differences. Different strokes, different folks. I’m not Japanese but I’m southeast Asian and - while I’m not speaking for the entirely of the region- in my country, age-gaps are also not as looked down on here, to an extent. Of course, we’re against the obvious (stay away from anyone below 15) and no one likes the idea of someone in a higher position being involved with someone they’re supposed to be taking care of. Despite the impressions people may get from the media, we actually do not encourage this. But say a 15 year old being involved with an 17/18 year old? I’ve seen a lot of Americans jump on that and calling it grooming, and I’m just…Confused. It’s only 2-3 years? But hey, that’s your country’s standards. Just don’t expect mine or the rest of the world to change their standards to suit your own. Not saying that the reviewer or anyone in this thread is doing that, just putting in my own two-cents at explaining why Furuba is so comfortable with having a age-gap romance and why few (if any) Asian fans care either way. I’m also starting to think most of us Asians just have a different way of consuming our media than Westerners (especially Americans) and that’s why fan opinions and behaviors differ so strongly, but that’s a post for another time. |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 649 |
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Good news! That’s what they got. So we can eliminate that and get back to what they’re really arguing for which apparently, as always, is a positive review. Because this grandstanding about not wanting one is obviously false when the only way a reviewer meets that second metric to you is through a positive one. It’s a barely disguised argument we’ve seen over and over and over. |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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I don't think my issues with the review were unclear and had nothing to do with how negative it was about a movie adaptation of a manga series I dislike. If you want to read my post in bad faith, I can't stop you, though. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Because I don't need to. What list are you talking about? Link to it because at this point I think you're making it up. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2247 |
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I’m gonna bet it was that article about the anime chosen for Kiss Day in Japan, which featured an incest couple (at least from the forum commenters familiar with the show). There was some mention about the episode chosen showcasing the “most romantic” kiss as voted by the public, or something, if I’m not wholly misremembering things. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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It could be, but that would be an interest article, it wasn't a list at all or even an ANN opinion piece!
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