Forum - View topicNow and Then, Here and There (TV).
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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I'm not saying stuff like this doesn't happen in real life. Besides, if you need NTHT to remind you that stuff like this happens around the world, clearly you never read the news or go out much.
I'm judging NTHT strictly on its artistic merits, not on its "real life" social significance or any of that. The writers take the easiest ways of evoking tears or shock. I don't think it takes a lot of effort to do that. Some people think that "emotional assault = quality" but when you're resorting to assaultive tactics every 5 minutes, you're just trying too hard to push buttons. You might as well come to my house and wave an onion in front of my face if you want to make me cry, it's just as subtle too. Yes. Every movie, show or TV is manipulative to a degree. But some do it with more subtlety, or more restraint. If making a masterpiece was as easy as showing girls getting raped and child soldiers getting brutally murdered in a succession of scenes and episodes, then everyone would do it. After all, it's easy to show something horrible to evoke a reaction out of an audience. For all the praise you heap on this kind of writing, let's face it: you could write the same thing and get the same reactions. If you can do it, then what makes this kind of writing so much more superior? Why bother with subtlety and restraint or low-key entertainment when all it takes to get an audience to declare a work a masterpiece is shock and awe? Look. I'm not even saying NTHT is bad. I still like it, it does what it sets out to do, but there isn't really a lot of craft being displayed here in terms of writing. It sets out to punch the audience in the gut emotionally and there's nothing wrong with that at all, if you're aware of it. But I just think that getting fooled into thinking that this kind of writing is so much superior to less "emotionally wrenching" entertainment is what feeds into the stereotype of audiences being sheep who can't understand anything unless it's shoved in their faces. Last edited by bravetailor on Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Megiddo,
I figured someone would take this stance which is why *I* used the word "hamfisted". I am well aware that dramas are emotionally manipulative by their very nature. I thought that NTHT was hamfisted in the way it went about executing its emotional manipulation. I *never* said or implied that I thought there aren't child-soldiers in the real world. My use of "hamfisted" has nothing to do with that, and I'm not sure how you managed to put my use of that word to mean I'm denying the existance of child-soldiers. I was aware of that sort of thing long before I knew NTHT existed. And of course authors want to cause emotional responses in dramatic works. A *good* author draws those responses out naturally through the use of good plot and dialog. Bad authors use crass means to drag out responses, hammering on emotional buttons with sledge hammers and leaving the reader/viewer feeling somewhat violated, or at least indignant, as a result. I think NTHT's authors fall somewhere in between of these extremes, and judge the overall work the way I do as a result of that perception. (Note: I listed NTHT as "Good" on my anime list.) |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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There is no way I could write a character like Nabuca. Not in a million years. I know my limitations as an author, and to be honest, they are not good. My characters all come up flat, and do you know what makes NTHT so great? That despite all the chaos and awful things happening, the show never loses itself. There's no way I could write that. If I were to just pile on sad thing after sad thing it would be useless and tawdry, because I'd never be able to strike such a balance as Daichi did in this creation of his. EDIT: And Tuor, I'd like to see an example of what "good plot and dialogue" you're referring too. Would I be able to see it in Gurren Lagann, a show you rated a masterpiece? |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Bravetailor, I suggest reading my responses to NTHT and Grave of the Fireflies. The latter was one of the best known tearjerker, yet I shed none; neither did I cry when spoiler[Shu got beaten or Sara got raped]. On the other hand, while Osamu Tezuka had openly criticized the so-called spoiler["dream end" i.e. ending the story with the protagonist realizing what s/he had experienced was merely a dream (in serializing manga, this is often the indication that the manga has been unpopular and butchered), the end of NTHT was really a devastating experience for me.]
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~~EpiC~~
 Posts: 243 |
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I agree wholeheartedly with Megiddo on a number of points. But first and foremost, calling a show emotionally manipulative is one of the most absurd arguments I have ever run across. I hate when people say it, because it's retarded. Everything everyone does can be considered 'emotionally manipulative'. Every movie, book, piece of art, etc... is emotionally manipulative. Even when someone is trying not to be emotionally manipulative, they are. They are trying to manipulate your emotional state to go nowhere. You could circle this on and on and on.
Tuor_of_Gondolin, I don't understand at all. You said this is how you judge overall works:
Yet, you rate Gurren Laggan, a masterpiece, and call out NTHT? As much as I consider Gurren Laggan to be overrated to the extreme (even though I like it), I can understand why people give it a masterpiece rating. And your above mentioned words are not the reason. Its ridiculously over the top. And if you want to say something is trying to hard, look no further. Did you mean a completely different show and accidentally picked masterpiece for it? If not, what you say and what you have done aren't adding up. Give us some examples.
bravetailor No. Writing is an extremely difficult task. Not anyone can do it. If you believe this, come back and re-post after your bestseller hits stores everywhere. And so I cover the objection in advance, Air did not pluck at my heartstrings. Anyway, one of the biggest points about the story is how through faith, good things can and will happen. One of the core messages is not depressing in the least, Its quite the opposite. What makes NTHT great? Yes, the writing, to an extent. The characters are believable, and most are not only three dimensional but also round. The consistency of the story. The pacing. Another one of the greatest points of the show are the questions that the writers bring up. Should these child soldiers be blamed for their actions? Should character xyz be stopped from getting revenge? etc etc etc... |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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You completely missed my point in your little rant. My point is, if it's no better than what you or I could do, it's not doing a "quality" job. We are not good writers, as you said. This kind of sledgehammer writing is not quality writing because it is writing that many laymen could probably do. As for "bestsellers", well, Paris Hilton had a bestseller. Maybe that proves my point that many people have poor judgement? I don't know. But I'll take it that you mean "Pulitzer Prize" instead. 
And nobody has clearly explained what exactly NTHT did that is so special. If you're going to say that the characters are believable, explain why. Tell me why Shu is a "believable" character, with his shonen-jumpisms in the face of a horrible situation. No one would act like he did. Even the most optimistic person would know when to shut up with the speeches he does every once in a while. Even fans of the show acknowledge that Shu is basically just a Shonen Jump character stuck in a ridiculously grim situation. What exactly do we know about Sara as a character other than the fact that she's traumatized that she went through such a horrible time? In fact, in most people's minds, the character of Sara = rape victim. Being known solely as a "rape victim" shouldn't constitute "good" characterization. The only explanation I'm hearing here for the show's "good writing" is that it made you "feel" something. A lot of it is likely shock or sadness. But if you examine it further. What exactly is making you sad? Is it because you feel you know characters like Sarah inside and out, or are you reacting more to the horrific circumstances of the situation? If it's the latter, then yes, you're reacting to shock tactics rather than "quality" writing. Put it this way. When you hear of some young girl getting raped on the news, you feel horrible, because you're reacting to the "event". You don't know the girl, but as a moral person, you react because that is such a horrible event. Now, if you basically made a show that's about a string of "ripped from the headlines" events, no doubt it will get reaction. But is it good writing? That is what I question. Listen, there are many people I've come across online who've related some horrible things that happened in their lives. And we're shocked and emotionally blown that such a thing can happen to someone. But we're reacting to the event, not because this poster is writing a "good" story. We're not reacting because she or he laid out the tale with a high level craft--we're reacting purely to the sensational aspect of the tale. This is what I'm questioning in NTHT. Are people reacting to the story or are we just reacting to the fact that it dictates a series of horrible events?
Now, now, Megiddo, don't be so modest just to defend the show.  Maybe nobody here can direct a scene like Daichi (he's a great director, no doubt about it, even in this show it is very well directed. But we're talking about the writing here)
The fact that you even consider Nabuca a nuanced character shows that you do have some idea of what a "nuanced" character is, and maybe you or I may not have the craft to write good dialogue for such a character, but guess what? I don't think NTHT's dialogue was that great either. Certainly there's nothing there that shows a high level of craft and sensitivity. NTHT's dialogue is as straightforward and uninspired as it gets. Again, I never said this was a crappy show. I still think it's a very worthy anime, but SOLELY because of the direction. Daichi knows how to frame and board a scene for maximum engagement. But I still don't think the script is anything worth getting worshipful about it. I guess in the end I'm just bitching about the use of the word "masterpiece". Maybe if most of you just said that you really liked the show and it meant a lot to you personally, I wouldn't be all over this like a raccoon on an open can of garbage.
For the record, I like Gurren Lagann too, but I don't think that's a "masterpiece" either. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Sorry tu butt in... You should say some fans. I am a fan, and I dont aree with the above statement. The same goes for what you said about Sara- if those fans only remember that she was a rape victim, well, what can I say... Sara in my mind was a character that despite being repeatedly raped, decided to move on with her life and assumed responsibility for bringing up a dozen or so of orphaned kids, in a world far away from her real family that she missed so much. So please dont use arguments you cant back up about most peoples' minds, because that is subjective from person to person, unless you have some sort of detailed research up your sleeve with interesting statistics. I think one of the reasons why I like the character portrayal is exactly because I did not need to see their whole life before and after the show to be able to bond with them. Most of what you said might be true, but it is also an awful generalisation.
You seem to totally exclude a possibility of well written horrific circumstances, which I think is quite a limited view. I do not cry at every sad scene in the cinema, and believe me, I have seen lots of tragic films. And sometimes yes, they are badly written. NTHT is however now. 'Shock tactics', as you call them, can be equally well incorporated in good writing. Using your example with reading someones account of a tragic event in their life- do you for yourself really not see a difference between a TV news item about a raped girl and writing a script for a (fictional) film? To make myself clear- if I read someone's relation on a forum about this person being raped, yes, I would feel bad. BUT, if I read a book about a rape victim, I would judge it by different standards- how well was it written is a part of what I would be looking at. I have read a lot of books as well, some of them were about tragic circumstances people faced, and some of those books were really bad. And I did not think they were good just because people suffered tragic fates in them. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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You're splitting hairs here just to get a foothold. I perfectly respect your opinion about the characterization-- if you just stated your defence, like what you just said about Sara, it would have been a very adequate rebuttal. Every person is an individual, so yes, when I say "fans think so and so" I mean a number of fans, not all. If I were to qualify that every time I made a post, it would get tedious. Even my criticism is merely an opinion. I don't say "In my opinion ONLY" every time I post, but I would hope that everyone would assume that this is what I mean when I do. I may not think NTHT is a masterpiece, but that's subjective. I may question the quality of the work, but that doesn't mean I assume I'm right. In fact, I may be looking at this from a totally anal angle. I'm not so invested in my opinion that I don't acknowledge this. However, just because someone takes an alternate opinion than yours doesn't mean it's not worth discussing. I'm really not into arguments that go into "I hate people who criticize something as manipulative, it's stupid, yadda yadda." Look. We all know that we can get mad when someone is attacking a show we like. The gall of that person! Unbelievable, right? Grrr, how dare he say that? What a moron! Etc, etc,. But it's just a show, folks. Nobody is declaring war here. Think I'm a complete idiot for missing the finer points of the show's writing? That's fine, I don't mind. No need to bust a vein over it. I just wish that people would stick to the show's content rather than picking on each other's argumentative techniques. We'll leave that to our lawyers, okay?
Alas, with this post, I just did what I condemned.
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Fawfulhasfury
 Posts: 46 Location: USA |
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It still was a very adequate rebuttal. I like how you changed the subject from the writing to "opinions" just to try and cover that up though.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Megiddo and ~~EpiC~~,
You question why I gave NTHT a "Good" rating while I gave Gurren Lagann a rating of "Masterpiece". This has to do with how I rate anime. In some respects, I rate anime in much the same way that Key does. I rate Gurren Lagann the way I do because it does what it is supposed to do almost perfectly. It's an outstanding example of its type. However, when I rate something, I am sometimes caught between my subjective feelings about a work and my objective feelings towards it. Sometimes the subjective feelings are so strong that I disregard any objectivity in my grade. Other times, I have given a work a higher grade because I realized that, even if I didn't particularly like it, it was technically a great work (sort of how I feel about Shakespere). NTHT is not the same sort of anime as GL. NTHT is intended to be taken *seriously*. Very seriously. Its characters are intended to be highly realistic. Unlike GL, it isn't intended to be over-the-top at all. When you look at the world of NTHT, it is supposed to be a place you could maybe imagine actually happening in the far future. This is, I think, what the creators aimed at. But with that said, the events strained my credibility, as did the various social structures and the fortress itself. I just couldn't entirely buy in to what the creators wanted: my suspension of disbelief was always somewhat strained, and I had a very limited feeling of sympathy towards any of the characters. As I said, I felt that the events that were intended to create certain emotional responses in the viewer were too forceful and, yes, hamfisted: I started to resent it. I never felt that way with GL: I *wanted* to go where they were taking me, and it was a fun ride. I never had to worry about my suspension of disbelief because it was never a factor: none of it was believable, but it *was* all very fun and enjoyable. So that's why I rate something like GL much better than NTHT. A better comparison, IMO, would be my rating of Texhnolyze, which was much more difficult for me to grade than GL and has far more in common with NTHT. |
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Unicorn_Blade
Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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First of all, I did not criticise your opinion or got mad (???), I merely pointed out that the arguments you presented were at least a bit inconsistent. You present arguments based on opinions of some anonymous 'fans' without any proof of them existing, to back up your opinion to which you are entitled to of course. But I am simply not a huge fan of such generalisations. Every opinion is worth discussing, but Id rather discuss arguments not backed up by phrases such as 'people think' or 'most fans happen to agree with me on this point'. Then you completely danced around the second part of what I said by making it look as if I was attacking you. I was not, I just found it a bit funny that you pretty much assumed that people who liked the show and symphatised with its characters did so because of some vague personal reasons, rather than because of good writing. I just wanted to clarify that the point that you made was not very valid, since good writing does not exclude dramatic event hapening, as well as dramatic events not being equal to being a part of good writing. For you the writing of the series might not be good, fair enough, no one here is on a mission to force you to love the show and I dont feel any urgent need to make you believe that the writing is excellent. I just dont think that accusing the writers of trying to cover up for their lack of skills with a series of dramatic events is very fair. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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You realize that TTGL has a higher death count than NTHT, correct?
Was that not meant to be taken seriously? You're telling me that spoiler[Kamina's and Kittan's deaths] were not "forceful"? What a frickin crock. |
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Sanosuke_Inara
 Posts: 1662 |
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Wow, this has been an interesting last page of discussion. A lot of things I can agree with, a lot of things I couldn't begin to. With Now and Then, Here and There being my favorite anime series of all time, I'll definitely be making a post in this topic sooner or later.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Megiddo,
Are you *trying* to misunderstand me, or am I just that terrible at getting my thoughts across. The world of TTGL was not intended be taken seriously. By "seriously" I mean that the world is unrealistic, the things that happen and stuff like "spiral power" is unrealistic. Machines that are powered and change simply because the pilot is exceptionally fired up? Unrealistic. And you know what? The creators of TTGL *don't care*. It doesn't matter, because it's just *that awesome*. This is NOT how NTHT works. NTHT is *serious*. The world is intended to be *realistic*. You bring up Kanima and Kittan but are missing what I said about the anime being different from one another. The whole context is different. I'm not talking about specific events within the anime, but the very intent of the anime as a whole. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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So in the end, it's that you prefer stories that lack realism? Okay, I can understand then. It's just a personal thing.
To be fair though, I was bringing up dramatic events in TTGL that had no subtlety or "good plot and dialogue" whatsoever. And that was what you said that NTHT was missing for its more dramatic scenes. |
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