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This Week in Anime - What's Missing From Welcome to the Ballroom's Characters?


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Mad_Scientist
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:31 pm Reply with quote
For people saying the issues will be addressed later on in the series, keep in mind we're about halfway through the anime's announced 12 episode count. Let me repeat, the show is basically half over already.

Now, it's quite possible we'll see future seasons, and so we'll eventually reach the content that addresses the issues people are having. Or maybe we won't. Regardless, "it gets better" is not a defense of how the show is NOW.

And for every show that starts out bad or at least full of issues, and later gets way better, there are 4 shows that start out bad and just stay bad. You can't expect anime viewers/reviewers to judge the show except based on what the show has actually given them.
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
For people saying the issues will be addressed later on in the series, keep in mind we're about halfway through the anime's announced 12 episode count. Let me repeat, the show is basically half over already.

It will actually be 24 episodes long.

animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-07-02/welcome-to-the-ballroom-anime-to-have-24-episodes/.118337
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Mad_Scientist
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Oh. Oops. I was misinformed it seems, and really should have checked more thoroughly to confirm what I thought I knew. Well now. *shuffles embarrassingly out of room*



*whispers* It's still fair to judge an anime on the anime though *
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:06 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
*whispers* It's still fair to judge an anime on the anime though *

I agree with this. And 24 episodes still might not be enough to improve this anime.
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kaorv



Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:13 pm Reply with quote
I wish this column would dial back on the whole "horny" thing when it comes to shows about teenagers. There's a difference, between liking stories about adolescents that recognize what a big player sex is in our lives, and lusting after high schoolers.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:24 pm Reply with quote
I think Nick nailed pretty much all of my problems with Sengoku and I pretty much agree with everything regarding the girls' lack of agency. For all that talk about how Shizuku is super talented, it's like she has no participation or recognition once she hits the dance floor

Quote:
But it's a lot of lively movement that's just nice to watch when it shows up.


Although I agree the dancing moves are the best part of the show so far (especially the two latin dances we've seen, it's no wonder those are the gifs that get used most) I'd hesitate to say there's a lot of movement considering more than half of any given dance scene is made up of still frames. I mentioned this in Rebecca's review of episode 5, but I found it really grating that on top of that, more than half of the tango in ep 4 was wasted in audience shots. Too much telling, not enough showing how "awesome" Hyodo was imho.

Mad_Scientist wrote:


Now, it's quite possible we'll see future seasons, and so we'll eventually reach the content that addresses the issues people are having. Or maybe we won't. Regardless, "it gets better" is not a defense of how the show is NOW.



At least the anime is projected to have abysmal sales so I wouldn't bank on a guaranteed second season on that front -not sure how it's doing in terms of boosting the manga but it doesn't seem to be picking up much steam in Japan either
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FlareKnight



Joined: 17 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:57 am Reply with quote
I'm not going to say that the show is bad. As a whole I've mostly enjoyed myself. It isn't the best of the season or anything special at this point, but it's had some good moments spread out in the material.

At the same time, I think a lot of points made in that discussion were valid. Sengoku is a horrible teacher and pretty unpleasant person. He constantly screws up with these kids and makes things worse than is necessary. At times he seems like a total toddler there to simply mess up the lives of teenagers. He (sometimes literally) yanks these kids around and doesn't really understand any of them. If the point is that he's one of those athletes that really sucks at teaching/coaching (which is a thing that exists) then fine. But right now he's just the worst part of the show.

I do feel for Shizuku a bit. When she's on the dancefloor it's "oooh Hyodo" since he's clearly dancing by himself right? But, I could at least get the idea that Sengoku is super talented and maybe outshines Shizuku's talents. But then you have outside the dance floor. She has legitimate grievances with both Hyodo and Sengoku. Neither tell her anything and she's left to figure things out by herself. This partnership is a pair thing just half the pair is basically not consulted on any level.

Still, the show has some good elements. The dancing overall is pretty fun to watch even without much knowledge on that front. Tatara isn't a great lead, but there's some potential. There is a solid base to work from. Yet we're basically a 1/4 way through the show. There's a 3 episode rule, but I've never heard a "wait a whole cour before you start judging the show." Let's just see where this goes. It has potential, but it has to pick up on the weak points sooner than later I think.
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Mojave



Joined: 07 May 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:57 am Reply with quote
My issue with the show's gender politics isn't that it somehow needs to have a bigger focus on female dancers. It's that, as a former male ballroom dancer, I don't recognize the gender relations that are being portrayed as part of the sport here. Dominant male leads, lowly woman follows is not how ballroom dance works. Leading and following in ballroom dance have very little to do with power dynamics. While it's conceivable that Tatara as a newcomer might not understand that, Sengoku and Hyodo sure as heck would, so their attitudes displayed here aren't just condescending/demeaning, they're completely inaccurate.

Sometimes I see things in this show that take me back to my competition days, but I unfortunately also see a large amount here regarding partner relationships and gender dynamics that are completely alien to me, and don't have any relationship to the reality of ballroom dance. That's disappointing, because there was no reason for them to do that. It's like making an anime about American football and having the protagonist be a running back who gets super jealous whenever any of his offensive linemen block for another running back besides him, and to have all the other running backs in the show have that same attitude. It's completely inaccurate, gives people a false impression of the sport, and adds nothing of value to the show. It's a completely pointless self-inflicted wound, so it disappoints me everytime I see Welcome to the Ballroom make that dumb mistake.
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Grimvice



Joined: 10 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:13 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Sometimes I see things in this show that take me back to my competition days, but I unfortunately also see a large amount here regarding partner relationships and gender dynamics that are completely alien to me, and don't have any relationship to the reality of ballroom dance.


First, it is Japan, a different culture that can indeed be alien in certain aspects. Second, it is an anime, so it's going to have some level of unrealistic campiness to it. And I also think the whole romance thing and they way they portray the "gender politics" are from the perspective of a Japanese person, who would have very differing views on "gender politics" compared to someone from the West where gender politics is consumed for breakfast, lunch and dinner nowadays.

I also think the idea is that the show is trying to portray Hyodo and Sengoku as wrong in their methods. It's clear they are best of the best, but they are not acting in the interests of their partners, and we can see that. That kind of character drama is common in sports anime, usually in order to demonstrate what makes a particular sport fun. I don't think the show is actively trying to portray strong male lead and lowly female must follow, I think that's just Sengoku and Hyodo, and the fact that the show's portraying them as individual athletes but not as partners in a sport about partners.
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Grimvice



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:19 am Reply with quote
Quote:
At the same time, I think a lot of points made in that discussion were valid. Sengoku is a horrible teacher and pretty unpleasant person. He constantly screws up with these kids and makes things worse than is necessary. At times he seems like a total toddler there to simply mess up the lives of teenagers. He (sometimes literally) yanks these kids around and doesn't really understand any of them. If the point is that he's one of those athletes that really sucks at teaching/coaching (which is a thing that exists) then fine. But right now he's just the worst part of the show.

I do feel for Shizuku a bit. When she's on the dancefloor it's "oooh Hyodo" since he's clearly dancing by himself right? But, I could at least get the idea that Sengoku is super talented and maybe outshines Shizuku's talents. But then you have outside the dance floor. She has legitimate grievances with both Hyodo and Sengoku. Neither tell her anything and she's left to figure things out by herself. This partnership is a pair thing just half the pair is basically not consulted on any level.


I think that's the whole point, it's part of Shizuku's struggle within a sport she enjoys; it's more character development rather than a bad part of the show. I think Sengoku is supposed to be a bad teacher and someone you don't like, remember when Tatara said originally that he wanted to be like him? Then Sengoku looked all offended and went out of his way to drive him away? I think the point is that Tatara isn't supposed to be like Sengoku or Hyodo, but to SURPASS them.
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rizuchan



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:23 am Reply with quote
I really wanted to like Welcome to the Ballroom but, and I know how petty this might sound, but I cannot stand the art style. I thought I could ignore the obnoxious characters and just enjoy the animation, but that art style is just. so. ugly. I hate to compare it to YOI because I recognize that they are completely different kinds of shows, but watching YOI made me see some beauty in ice skating that I hadn't ever seen before. Welcome to the Ballroom's dance sequences make me dry heave a little.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:32 pm Reply with quote
darkchibi07 wrote:
Considering the baffling lack of female leads in sports anime nowadays...
Well, uhhh there's a good reason for that. A good majority of sports anime today, do you know to whom they are marketed to?
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:39 pm Reply with quote
darkchibi07 wrote:
Considering the baffling lack of female leads in sports anime nowadays, one could hypothetically watch Welcome to the Ballroom in order to fulfill that desire even if she's just a co-lead with the male protagonist. Heck, the very premise of using ballroom dancing suggest omnipandering fanservice for both male and female audiences. But unfortunately it seems like according to this, the female partners so far are essentially trophies for the males compounded with all the other problems. It's rather aggravating how this series squandered a really good opportunity here.


Sports anime are mostly aimed at men, so male leads are only logical for readers to identify with the characters. As in this case, Ballroom runs in a shounen mabazine. Criticizing that aspect seems akin to criticizing shoujo for having mostly female leads.

BlueBeast33 wrote:


Is this really the case?

Most of the negative stuff I've read has just been on ANN or from a few select people on twitter.

Everywhere else I've been the reactions to the show seem to be fairly positive. Heck, the main complaint I saw were people complaining about still shots during some of the dance scenes. Admittedly, I've seen people mention their dislike of Sengoku or at least some of his actions(which I understand), but that's about as far as that's gone.

I don't know, it honestly just seems like one big overreaction to me if it's really as bad as some people are saying it is, but like I said, I haven't really seen that in most of the sites/forums that I frequent.


ANN generally has a different outlook on shows compared to other anime communities. I haven't seen any real criticism of it elsewhere aside from the subject not being interesting to them. Subjects like 'female agency' are usually only a concern here.

-Stuart Smith
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:47 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
darkchibi07 wrote:
Considering the baffling lack of female leads in sports anime nowadays, one could hypothetically watch Welcome to the Ballroom in order to fulfill that desire even if she's just a co-lead with the male protagonist. Heck, the very premise of using ballroom dancing suggest omnipandering fanservice for both male and female audiences. But unfortunately it seems like according to this, the female partners so far are essentially trophies for the males compounded with all the other problems. It's rather aggravating how this series squandered a really good opportunity here.


Sports anime are mostly aimed at men, so male leads are only logical for readers to identify with the characters. As in this case, Ballroom runs in a shounen mabazine. Criticizing that aspect seems akin to criticizing shoujo for having mostly female leads.



Being aimed at men (and whether sports anime are aimed mostly at men in this day an age is highly debatable, considering it was fujoshi who made Kurobas, Yowapeda and Haikyuu a success) does not excuse having poor writing for its female characters. Other shonen manga give their female characters agency and independent arcs (Hero Academia, FMA, Magi, Blue Exorcist all feature fully-developed female characters with agency). Besides, as the OP mentioned, by the sheer nature of the sport being portrayed, it is completely natural to expect that the female party will be given if not equal, at least significant spotlight and development. Yet we're 1/4 through the show and Shizuku's still being treated like a trophy that neither the writers nor the characters respect enough to grant her agency or respect her decisions.

Quote:
ANN generally has a different outlook on shows compared to other anime communities.[...] Subjects like 'female agency' are usually only a concern here.


I wasn't aware Anime News Network invented feminism.
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Grimvice



Joined: 10 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Being aimed at men (and whether sports anime are aimed mostly at men in this day an age is highly debatable, considering it was fujoshi who made Kurobas, Yow/apeda and Haikyuu a success) does not excuse having poor writing for its female characters.


But they're not badly written characters though...

Besides, Shizuku is actually a very small part of the series, the real heroine has not appeared in the series yet, and this upcoming character is definitely much better than Shizuku and is focused on more.
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