Forum - View topicMost Clever/Intelligent Character Tourney Post-Mortem
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Groups A/B Semi-Final
Voting for: L, Death Note Reasons: I've seen both series in question and have absolutely no doubt that L is the smarter of the two. That's pretty much it. Groups C/D Semi-Final Voting for: Johan Liebert, Monster Reasons: I already voted for him over Lelouch and I am still not convinced that Aramaki should have gotten into this round. I'd vote for Light over all of them if he was still around, but since he's not, the other psychopath shall do (yes, I know I'm probably overly simplifying, but whatever). Randomly, I like the new avatar, ccdx 
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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With only two rounds left, only seven minigame entrants are still in the running for prizes, and the top spot has come down to only three: marie-antoinette, who has led the tournament for every week except once after round D1; Olliff, who started around the middle and caught up to marie at the end of round 3 and stuck right there with her at first ever since; and velocet, who started in sixth, then hovered between third and fifth for the rest of the tournament.
Meanwhile, DerekTheRed has staged the most impressive comeback of the tournament, coming from second to last at the end of the first round to fifth place currently, and could possibly end up in second. Excel sheet can be found here. For those of you who have participated, check your submissions carefully to make sure I've given you proper credit for all points. If you can't find your original, I still have whatever you sent me originally, and can send it back to you if you need it. Btw, no one picked Light to win it all. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18248 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Guess I'll vote right away, since I'm still online.
Groups A/B Semi-Final L, Death Note [ Video Clip ] vs. The Count of Monte Cristo, Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo [ Video Clip ] The tournament's top detective vs. one of anime's elite (revenge-minded) masterminds. The Count's clip shows one tine of the fork of his master revenge scheme, while L's clip shows his ability to react quickly to rapidly-changing circumstances. While The Count is certainly a worthy contender, given the choice between the two, I'll take L. Whether or not he deserves to win overall is another story, but I find his keen deductive reasoning is a more pure display of intelligence than The Count's scheming. Yes, L has his flaws and miscues, but The Count also gets distracted at times from his intent, too. Given that L was operating from a disadvantage the whole time but still managed to give Light fits speaks well for him. Groups C/D Semi-Final Lelouch Lamperouge, Code Geass [ Video Clip ] vs. Johan Liebert, Monster [ Video Clip ] vs. Aramaki Daisuke, Ghost in the Shell franchise [ Video Clip ] I chose Lelouch over Johan last round, and all of the impassioned arguments in Johan's favor didn't convince me that I made the wrong choice, so that eliminates Johan for me. That leaves Lelouch vs. Aramaki, a master tactician/manipulator vs. a covert ops leader. Frankly, going by the clips alone, Lelouch should win, as it shows one of his (non-Geass-powered) schemes in nearly flawless execution, while Aramaki's clip mostly shows him just gathering information and making a judgment call or two; The Major is the one who actually gives out the orders. Even beyond that, though, I find Lelouch to be the better choice. Sure, he's not a perfect choice for a finalist because he does too often let his emotions get in the way and makes an occasional mistake, but he adapts quickly to the circumstances, almost never gets tripped up for long, and accomplishes plenty without ever using his Geass power. (And when he does, he nearly always uses it very efficiently and with great foresight.) He anticipates opponents' moves with the best of them and uses that to his advantage. Aramaki, OTOH, I still feel gets way too much credit for things actually done collectively by his team. Yes, he's the one ultimately in charge and may have picked his personnel well, but he doesn't personally operate on the same strategic level as Lelouch on a regular basis. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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Group A/B Semi: L
Yeah, I'm really not all that familiar with The Count, going with what I know here, simple as that. Clips would most likely be spoilerific for the Count too.... Group C/D Semi: Johan Well, I already voted for him once over Lelouche, so it's most vs Aramaki. But, once again, I'm too unfamilar with Aramaki to go for him, and there's few people I'd vote for over Johan anyway. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Groups A/B Semi-Final
Voting for: L, Death Note Not much of a contest, honestly, is it? Still, unlike several people, I think L fully deserves his spot here and besides just being masterfully smart, I do clearly have a personal bias toward him as one of the most unique and interesting geniuses in fiction in general, much less anime. He retains incredible ambiguity without becoming boring or two-dimensional, and his tics reveal a lot about his character and what he's thinking, which is hard to do as a writer. (As evidenced by the fact that it was not an accomplishment they could replicate with Near or Mello, both of whom possess weirdnesses that are just plain weird but not engrossing, and are developmentally thin as cardboard.) It helps that his competition is one of two weakest seeds remaining. Not undeserving of the finals, but let's face it: his stupidest move hands-down was even inviting Gankutsuou to possess him in the first place, and his quest is one of deep grief and near-madness, not the cold logical madness Johan might possess, but a raving thirst for vengeance that would lead him to sacrifice good judgment to the throe of his emotions. Groups C/D Semi-Final Voting for: Johan Liebert, Monster
I prefer sociopath, as psychopaths communicates a disturbed person that is illogical, contradictory, and an emotional mess. Johan kinda fits the smiling slasher profile with an unwavering doggedness to a skewed dogma and a method to his madness, despite the fact it is madness, should ye have ANY morals. I've already stated why I think Johan juuuust squeaks by Lelouche as the bigger mastermind, but I'll unearth those arguments later when I have more to argue against. For now I'll just say what I've said before: anything Lelouche does, Johan does better, earlier, and more efficiently. Whose that third contestant...? Oh well, he's not important.  No, seriously, he's QUITE out of his league here.
I'm not surprised. Even his most ardent fans admit that he has some big ole gaping flaws as a mastermind, ones that unfortunately eliminated him to paperweight "leader-man" competition. If he had made it through, I would have voted Johan over him for being "the same thing, but better," kinda like Johan's situation with Lelouche currently, but moreso because Johan and Light are even closer to being the same archetype. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Actually, the two terms mean essentially the same thing. Sociopath is just the term used more often these days, if I remember my university psychology classes correctly. Most of the perceived differences in meaning are connotative. |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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A/B
Voting for: L Reason: Of the few series I checked out because of tournament hype, I think I was the least impressed by the Count. He is a shadow of his character from the novel, and really shows his intellect very few times in my opinion. L on the other hand, thinks of things way outside the box, and usually bases his thoughts around logic, and the elimination of the impossible. C/D Voting for: Lelouch Reason: Johan is impressive, worthy of moving on, and I regret not voting for him in several previous rounds, but I gave the edge to Lelouch last time because he shows that he can drop or change plans in an instant, always changing a situation to his advantage. I do believe that Aramaki is worthy of moving on as well, but out of the three, I've got to stick with Lelouch. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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Group A/B Semi: Count
*May contain mild Death Note spoilers* Both men are very brilliant. L is an incredible detective while the Count is a graceful mastermind. Unfortunately, L is plagued by his inability to act on his discoveries. Yes, L does figure out Light's identity and manages to solve spoiler[ catch the clumsy second Kira, Misa, ] however, L fails to act when it is most important. It may be true that it may be impossible for L to imprison/convict Light based on lack of evidence, however there was no sound reason to involve him on the Kira team. This is especially true when he still suspected Light was Kira. L gives the reasoning that if Light is on the team, he can better monitor him. This isn't logical. There are many safer ways that L could have monitored Light. Would you let one of the former prime suspects for a murder case help you investigate the murders, especially when you still believe that he is the murderer? L's choice definitely makes for a more exciting series, but it is needlessly reckless and it isn't logical when you carefully scrutinize it. I also question L's choice to spoiler[ reveal himself to Light right off the bat. ] Again, L gives his reasoning for doing this. However, the reasoning behinds his choice especially falls apart when you analyze the second half of the series. Near spoiler[ chooses never to reveal his identity to Light until the very end] Arguably, if L had never revealed his identity to Light. Light would never know where L was exact whereabouts. Without this knowledge, spoiler[ Light would never have been about to use Misa's Shinigami to kill L. ] This is because he would lack a connection to L and he would lack his location. This is assuming that L's ability to keep himself hidden would be equal or greater than Near's abillity. Since L is almost universally considered smarter than Near, I don't think that this would be much of a stretch to make this assumption. Near uses this very decision to prevent himself from succumbing to L's fate. Again, L's choice makes for a more exciting story, but it isn't logical from L's perspective. I also question L's choice to reveal himself to the police team in the first place. Why couldn't he work remotely like all of his previous cases? Yet again, L gives a reason. He argues that for this case especially he needs to establish additional trust. This doesn't make any sense at all and it doesn't fit with L's future actions or values. L is very distrustful person in general, why would he value trust? This trust wasn't needed for any of the other cases. He even tells us that he has never revealed himself before to work on a case. By exposing himself to the police team, he is revealing himself to a team that could very well contain Kira. L even explained that there was good chance that Kira may be on the police team. L's concerns of this are so great that he even tests the team to make sure none of them are Kira. Despite this big risk, L gains nothing but the trust of the team. Even this is questionable, the police team remains distrustful of L for some time after his introduction. Of these three weaknesses, I believe his most critical weakness is his inability to act. L is brilliant. However, if he doesn't act on his brilliance, his brillance becomes limited. Discovering the identity of L is one accomplishment, but acting on them is another. This is the same very weakness that affected Alex Rowe and Aizen. L is undeniably smarter than both of these men in other ways, but all three men share this same weakness. L's needless recklessness without gain is attributable for his other weaknesses. There is a difference between calculated gambles that have potential big payouts and risks with only disadvantages that bear little or no possible benefit. Near's lack of this very trait was even arguably a driving reason spoiler[ why he was able to defeat Light in the very end. ] The Count does not win by default. However, I will address these merits along with his weaknesses some time next week. It is getting very late. =zzzz Group C/D Semi: Lelouch All three contenders are very smart. Lelouch has the clear edge based on the diversity of intelligence. Not only is he a brilliant tactician, he is a skilled leader, persuader, mastermind, and logical thinker. Lelouch also benefits from the intricacy of his plan. Though a minor advantage over Johan, Lelouch's plan is much ordered and clearly defined than Johan's. Johan's plan was intricately carried out but it's very end goal was illy defined and not logical in the eyes of anyone who is sane. While both men are master persuader's I also believe that Lelouch is the better persuader because he can utilize emotion and pathos -- something that Johan would never be able to do. This strength reveal Lelouch's weakness -- his emotions. Unlike Johan, Lelouch is very much human-like with emotion and he has a conscience that sometime works against his goals. The starts of Johan master plan are not shown and the exact specifics of his plan are never fully revealed. An example of this is the stages of his plan that took place in Kinderheim. Though a minor weakness, it is also arguable that his time there warped his personality in a way that was not fully under his control. This meaning he was manipulated or at the very least influenced without consent. Personally, I thought Johan faced easier resistance than Lelouch. Johan's biggest obstacle was Tenma. A man that inability to do what he needs to do overshadows even L. Lelouch on the other hand faced very tough and equally smart foes such as Mao and Schinzel. Addition to his tough foes, Lelouch overcame allies with wavering loyalty and narrow-minded justice. Johan on the other hand manipulated children, such as the Kinderheim children, the orphan child, the narrow justice headed Tenma and the misinformed and dull minded Baby. With the exception of Tenma, none of these foes even demonstrate an ounce of intelligence. Lastly, Johan demonstrates a lot of counterproductive behavior. This is mainly attributed to his psychopath status. He does know he is mad, but it still has an effect on his ability to act and think. The chief's main weakness is his lack of exposure. I will address further weaknesses if needed. Last edited by Olliff on Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Semi Final 1: L.
We all know what happened to L. But he was up against Light, a person who was just as smart as L but had the Death Note to boot. The fact that L did so well against what were almost impossible odds just cements his place as one of the most brilliant characters I know. He had the right suspect after just eight episodes; the rest of the rime was spent trying to catch Light out or trip him up. His spoiler[losing] is attributed not to him being inferior in terms of intelligence, but because of the substantial burden of proof and the fundamental nature of the case. Semi Final 2: Lelouch. Aramaki doesn't deserve to be here (the semifinals) in my eyes. So I count him out of contention automatically. He is so disappointing as a semi-finalist that it is embarrassing. Johan is incredibly awesome, more deserving than Lelouch. After all, he didn't have a super power and started at at younger age. However, Lelouch is a brilliant all-rounder, while Johan is good in just one area - manipulation. Added to that, Johan reeks of insanity. I am in no way saying that being insane prevents a person from being smart; our world has known only too well the pains when insanity and intelligence combine in a single man (or woman). However, when Johan is making completely irrational decisions not based on emotions like Lelouch but (basically) boredom, then I draw the line. |
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swordmaster56
 Posts: 36 Location: Germany, Hannover |
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Group A/B : L
Because L has really been the most intelligent character in Death Note. Light would have never won if Ryuk hadn´t faked rules for him. Group C/D : Lelouch Because he is a great strategist, he can talk well and held great speeches and he is able to convience people nad adapt to the situation if something is not going as planned. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Voting for: L
He seems to be a better choice. Voting for: Johan Liebert Johan gets my vote. He was able to manipulate people in his childhood and at the beginning of the story police didn't even believe that he exist. On the other hand, Lelouch owes much to geass. I can't help wondering whether had it not been for geass, Lelouch would have achieved anything. Lelouch was loved by people because of his miracles. In order to perform his miracles he used geass. His plans often depend on the geassed people on his enemy side, something that without geass would require infiltration. In addition, because of geass he didn't need to worry about what will happen to all those people, even if they were dismissed afterwards it didn't matter to him because he would just geass the new workers. Something he would not have been able to afford to do if he hadn't had geass. It's true that Geass does not make him less intelligent but it makes his plans a whole lot easier to achieve and unfortunately for him I'm more impressed by people who have only their wits to do something. |
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Liviu-
Posts: 44 |
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Good to see both Lelouch and Johan got into next round. I didn't vote in hope to make things more interesting.
Even though I'm not going to vote now, I'd like to make a case against the Count, if that's even needed. In my opionion The Count only impressed by manipulating some already way too weak characters. Albert is his first target. Even though i have to admit i liked they way he manipulated him into choosing spoiler[one of the 3 cards for saving that innocent man's life] there was still a pretty big chance for Albert to get the right one. Even if they had all the same name written on them Albert could have checked the other cards. Maybe that wouldn't have saved that man's life but it would have certainly removed his guilt. Even so i'm note sure what The Count wanted to do with this move. It certainly didn't bring them closer, just made Albert feel guilty about not choosing the right one so my impression is this was done just to entertain the viewer. Moving to the moment when The Count really made Albert trust him. If Albert stayed with his friend when leaving The Count's house he probably would have been just fine. In order for his plan to work Albert had to be alone and at a late hour on the streets so he can easily spoiler[be kidnapped]. The Count did make it so Albert will be upset with his friend, but that doesn't mean hewould have surelly went alone and fall in love for that girl. There are just too many variables for this to happen. He proved to be a good manipulator of the stock market but it isn't that much impressive. We don't even know in most cases what he did exactly. This way he manipulated spoiler[the banker, which name i can't remember. The banker lost all his money and he had to make his daughter marry the other guy]. While this was pretty effective it doesn't show too much intelligence. The best manipulation scene was by far the one where he gathers all his spoiler[friends in a past time at a party]. That was a really good move but for me that's his only achievement. spoiler[Making a woman depressed and a man a bit scared.] Can't remember any other impressive scenes where he demonstrates his intelligence. Even so his tagets were Albert who is a very weak person and very easy to manipulate, and his 3 friends from the past along with their wives. None of these characters were smart. The judge and Fernand got their powers by force and by lying. The banker didn't strike me as an intelligent person at all. Also none of the wives seemed to be intelligent. Don't know if anyone could argue here that every one of The Counts victims were no more than regular people. On the other hand L has a mind battle with Light, a very intelligent character, so intelligent that he's way better than all the victims of The Count put together, maybe all the characters in Gankutsuou. I know L has done mistakes and all, I even supported Motoko in the fight against him (and i still think she should have won), but in my mind there isn't even one doubt that L is the one who should advance here. Maybe he is not worthy of the final but he deserves to win against The Count. |
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Kimiko_0
 Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Semifinal A/B: L vs. The Count Of Monte Cristo
Voting for: The Count Of Monte Cristo Reason: This is a vote against L. The Count should lose as well, but that would invalidate my voting. Semifinal C/D: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Johan Liebert vs. Daisuke Aramaki Voting for: Daisuke Aramaki Btw, why do people keep writing Aramaki's name in Japanese order when all the others are written in Western order? |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Semifinal, groups A and B: The Count of Monte Cristo
Despite my general dislike of the way fans have reacted to Death Note (by which I mean, I find the fans' displays of admiration for rabid sociopathy disturbing), I find the series itself entertaining enough, in a sort of melodramatic over-the-top way. Having an evil protagonist is hardly innovative (for one thing, Camus went that route over half a century ago), but the series works well enough, especially during the first 2/3 of the episodes. Of all the characters in DN, I would have to pick L as my favourite. For all that he is just as screwed up (in his own way) as Light, he is certainly a likeable character -- and, unlike Light, his purported intelligence at least makes an appearance, instead of merely being a postulate on the part of the author. This is Death Note's great weakness: the supposedly superintelligent protagonist is unconvincing, melodramatic and at times downright cloddishly stupid. It pops the bubble of suspension of disbelief for any reader with half a brain. Even so... I don't feel that he can compare to the Count, a fiendish plotter with a labyrinthine mind. In an even match between the two, L might win -- but I doubt it. I have to say the balance probably tips slightly in favour of the Count, and that's the way I'm voting. Semifinal, groups C and D: Aramaki Daisuke Tough one. Looking at this, I would say that I'm inclined to stick with my favourite from the last round, Chief Aramaki. I am not sure whether he would be able to outsmart Johann (who has shown strengths in a few of Aramaki's weak spots), or vice versa (Aramaki having strengths in Johann's weak spots). I do know that I'd pick either of them over Lelouch, who seems a clear also-ran in this company. I'm going to place my vote on the Chief, but I wouldn't be disappointed to see him lose to Johann. - abunai |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Yeah, clinically they mean the same thing, but connotation is what I was after.
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