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utawoutau wrote:

At the end of the review, the writer notes that there is a drop in story quality with the series and the movie. I would argue that the drop in quality happened at the end of the series, and that it naturally impacted anything to come, including the movie.

That'd be a negative.

The end of the series' storytelling dropped off in quality true. But I'm surprised to see people saying that the movie's storytelling wasn't as good. The movie was made on its own schedule so I'm sure the writers had time to think about the plot and where it would go. The end of the series, suffering of course from lack of manga storyline syndrome, had to have an episode out each week. By the time it was over, you could tell they were writing as they went along without a clear direction.

The movie redeemed the series for me. I enjoyed it a lot more than I did watching the series as a whole.

[quote="Key"]

hanachan01 wrote:

Zallis116: Although I know I didn't make that clear in the review, my comment about the pronounciations was referring more to the way sub fans nitpick on even the tiniest thing on pronounciation of names, not the gross cases where anyone would notice. And since hard-core sub fans nitpick so thoroughly, I don't let seiyuu off the hook just for language sound/structure differences, as I've heard Japanese actors who can pronounce American names quite well.

But that's really a minor point overall, and I agree, not worth starting a big debate about. I'm still convinced the English dub is better even discounting the pronounciation thing.

Ah no, I understand--I took that part as partial satire of criticisms leveled by, well, haughty sub-purists the likes of me. (Though I'd like to think that I focus my wrath on dubs that are incompetent or ignorant on the name thing; I think the Negima dub is better script-wise than the original, even though they can't quite say "Kaede" right.) From what I've seen on Cartoon Network and read in reviews, I have faith that the FMA dub is very good, and I plan on listening to quite a bit more of it when I watch the DVDs.

Honestly, I've gotten so used to the Japanese "mispronunciation" of Western names that I probably wouldn't even notice that in the FMA sub. ^ ^ It just seems a given that Western names are said in the Japanese way when speaking in Japanese. In my Japanese class for example, my classmates and I are called by the Japanese pronunciation of our last names (mine comes out as "rokku-san" ) whether we like it or not Wink

Am I in the minority of not liking this movie? I felt there was a lot left to be desired. Personally I can't think of too many plotholes within the series outside of spoiler[what happens to Gluttony and Envy.] The way the movie handled both of these aspects was quite poor. Why Envy spoiler[transforms into a dragon/serpent is beyond me. And Envy from what I remember doesn't serve much purpose other than to be the key to the gate.] Gluttony served no purpose other than being there for a fight. It seems he was thrown in to say "Oh yeah this is what happened." Some things are better left unanswered. It's what made Big O as good as it is. Not only that but I think the movie completely missed the mark. As I recall Ed kind of accepts the fact that he's more or less stuck, and I feel the movie should have concentrated on both him and Al trying to reunite using their respective forms of science which it didn't really do. Instead the movie chose to overdevelop a plot that in all honesty was not complicated at all. As far as the historical fiction aspect, while it is interesting I don't think I can call it a plus unless you're a history buff and that's your thing. Other than exploring our world and making it seem like Ed was truly in that time period, what was the point? I know I didn't watch FMA for historical parallels. Also I didn't understand the reasoning behind the ending. If (just in case) spoiler[there are 2 sides to the gate and one was destroyed, what's the point of destroying the other side? Wouldn't the other door just lead to nowhere since the gate to Armestis was destroyed? The whole thing just defeats Ed's entire motivation and really destroys any punch the movie could have. Ed works to get back to his world only to say "I gotta go back"?] Ed has always been one determined to find a solution to anything (I saw him that way at least), so why this is an exception is beyond me. A lot of what made the series so enjoyable seems lost in the movie, and the last 30 min. is more or less fanservice. I feel the movie should have circled back around to Envy, as it would have made for a much more interesting angle but that's just my opinion. How this is "everything that fans of the series have eagerly waited for" is beyond me, since as a diehard FMA fan I was incredibly let down.

hanachan01 wrote:

I'm suprised the various plotholes in this movie weren't mentioned. While I found the movie interesting and enjoyable, there were many annoying plotholes as well. First off, spoiler[how do you open the gate from the real world side, where there is no alchemy?]

I don't have an answer to your second question, but my guess for your first one is spoiler[perhaps it's Ed's blood that opens the gate. Alchemy can't be used in our world but Ed's blood comes from the FMA world so maybe it could be used somehow as a catalyst to activate the transmutation. ] As for the review, I mostly agree with what it said. It was a fun movie that I enjoyed a lot and I found it to be a decent ending to the series. It wrapped up almost all of the plotholes from the TV show and I enjoyed the historical aspect of the story and it was a lot of fun just being able to see the FMA characters one more time. Was it just me or were the rocket scientists that Al H. worked with the real world counterparts of that gang of chimeras that worked with Greed in the series? I loved how the characters from the FMA universe were the same yet slightly different in our world. It was fun seeing King Bradley helping Ed out and Hughes as a Nazi. The only thing I didn't like about the movie was that Eckart was too lame of a villian for FMA. She just lacked the stylish appeal of the villians of the TV series and was also lacking in any real depth. And am I the only one who actually hates the FMA dub?

Kouji wrote:

And am I the only one who actually hates the FMA dub?

Yes.

I don't really know what else there is to say. For such a highly-regarded series, the movie just kind of had that "okay" feeling. It wasn't absolutely horrible, but it could've been great. I honestly think the main problem is the ending of the TV series, which was fine on its own, but I don't really think that ending was a very good set up for continuation.

But that's just me. Very Happy

Kouji wrote:

And am I the only one who actually hates the FMA dub?

No, I've been saying how much I dislike it for a year. It's a poorly thought-out, uninspired dub, and I won't even bother retreading the same statements I've made over and over again. Actually, though, I think the movie's dub is an improvement.

As for how the gate in the "real world" was opened - the Thule Society wasn't able to open it until they had Envy in captivity - so apparently a homonuculus has some kind of unique property, a link with the Renkinjutsushi world, which allows them to do it. I wish it had been explained that Envy could also turn into beasts in the series (as he does in the manga) before he just turned into a dragon inexplicably in the finale of the series.

I thought it was a good movie that tied up most of the loose threads dangling from the television series. It wasn't really a neccesary movie, but it was interesting.

penguintruth wrote:

Kouji wrote:

And am I the only one who actually hates the FMA dub?

No, I've been saying how much I dislike it for a year. It's a poorly thought-out, uninspired dub, and I won't even bother retreading the same statements I've made over and over again. Actually, though, I think the movie's dub is an improvement.

Then what do you consider a good dub? And what exactly do you mean by "poorly thought-out?"

Key wrote:

penguintruth wrote:

Kouji wrote:

And am I the only one who actually hates the FMA dub?

No, I've been saying how much I dislike it for a year. It's a poorly thought-out, uninspired dub, and I won't even bother retreading the same statements I've made over and over again. Actually, though, I think the movie's dub is an improvement.

Then what do you consider a good dub? And what exactly do you mean by "poorly thought-out?"

A good dub is one in which the voices all fit the unique personalities of the characters in the show it's dubbed for, or illuminates something about their personalities which make the dub befitting the storyline.

Fullmetal Alchemist's dub does none of this.

Flat, unispired voices for characters that are charming, charasmatic, and intruiging lead to a representation of said characters as being superflous or awkward. For instance, the voice of Greed in the dub, Chris Patton, in my opinion fails to capture the charming and off-beat nature of his character. He lacks the haughty, arrogant charisma that Junichi Suwabe brought to the character. Unfortunately, this is par for the course as far as Patton's (lack of) talent is concerned. He brings no life to any characters he voices.

Another problem a dub might suffer is the lack of genuine emotion brought to an intense emotional scene. To use another series to illustrate this - Mark Gatha's voicing of Domon Kasshu in G Gundam. He was fine when it came to simple dialogue, but in G Gundam's dramatic (arguably melodramatic for a light mecha series) scenes, his voice sounded awkward and not at all befitting of the character's turmoil. It seemed like a pale imitation of the character rather than the character's voice. One of the reasons I dislike Vic Mignogna as Edward Elric is for this very reason; that is, he doesn't bring any genuine emotion to the character.

Perhaps this is a symptom of American dubs as a whole, but I've always refused to believe that as long as strong dubs such as Cowboy Bebop, Big O, and Outlaw Star exist. These dubs not only capture the subtlities of the characters and plot, but in the case of the first two, do an arguably better job than the Japanese cast. This is not the case for Fullmetal Alchemist and I fail to see where the argument stems from.

Quote:

A good dub is one in which the voices all fit the unique personalities of the characters in the show it's dubbed for, or illuminates something about their personalities which make the dub befitting the storyline.

Fullmetal Alchemist's dub does none of this.

All of which it does, FMA has easily one of the best english dub performance in recent years. I understand some people are hopeless purists, but give it a rest already, sometimes dubs are actually quite good god forbid.

Quote:

Flat, unispired voices for characters that are charming, charasmatic, and intruiging lead to a representation of said characters as being superflous or awkward. For instance, the voice of Greed in the dub, Chris Patton, in my opinion fails to capture the charming and off-beat nature of his character. He lacks the haughty, arrogant charisma that Junichi Suwabe brought to the character. Unfortunately, this is par for the course as far as Patton's (lack of) talent is concerned. He brings no life to any characters he voices.

Sorry, but the FMA dub was not flat and uninspired and I would personally argue the original voices were, especially for the leads. They were plain sounding, didn't fit the characters and came across to me as completely generic as though they could be used for any one of thousands of other anime characters out there. Greed was voiced quite effectively for the type of character he was, not to mention if the best you can come up with is a minor character with a brief role then you're not backing up full outright hatred of the dub very effectively.

Quote:

Another problem a dub might suffer is the lack of genuine emotion brought to an intense emotional scene. To use another series to illustrate this - Mark Gatha's voicing of Domon Kasshu in G Gundam. He was fine when it came to simple dialogue, but in G Gundam's dramatic (arguably melodramatic for a light mecha series) scenes, his voice sounded awkward and not at all befitting of the character's turmoil. It seemed like a pale imitation of the character rather than the character's voice. One of the reasons I dislike Vic Mignogna as Edward Elric is for this very reason; that is, he doesn't bring any genuine emotion to the character.

Now I know you're full of it, Vic did a great job with emotion, not only conveying well Ed's coping with emotion but also the internal conflict of his suppression of that emotion and his attempts to stay strong in spite of it. Not only did Vic hit one layer of emotion, but he got them both, something not often done so well.

Quote:

Perhaps this is a symptom of American dubs as a whole, but I've always refused to believe that as long as strong dubs such as Cowboy Bebop, Big O, and Outlaw Star exist. These dubs not only capture the subtlities of the characters and plot, but in the case of the first two, do an arguably better job than the Japanese cast. This is not the case for Fullmetal Alchemist and I fail to see where the argument stems from.

That would only represent generalizations and bias and the mention of which says a lot right there. Your big issue here is as many purists do you're using your opinion as a basis of fact, what you felt about the dub job as though it's indisputable when in fact it is your lone opinion of it. Now look around and you see the dub praised from reviewer to reviewer and forum to forum, so with you looking to sit in the minority it really calls in to question whether your opinion is indeed fact, which it obviously is not. You're free to dislike it, but to argue that people are wrong for thinking it's great is just plain arrogant.

And on a final note, it really amuses me that some people found yet another thread to turn in to a dub/sub debate, and once again the instigators sit on the same side of the issue, surprise surprise. Now take your bat and find that horse, have fun.

Keonyn wrote:

STUFF

It's interesting how you've presented an argument without actually presenting any argument. No counter-points besides, "UH UH, UR WRONG, IT WAS INDESPUTABLY GUUD!!111one", no analysis, nothing.

Try again.

Why should I try again? What points are there to counter. You see, that's what I was pointing out in my post. Your points were nothing but opinion and conjecture based on your individual perception. The only counter is the fact that I disagree and felt that they did do an effective job in portraying their characters, better in fact than the japanese voice actors and the voices seemed to fit better.

But you see, all I can respond with is a disagreement and saying "you're wrong", which is also why I pointed out the fact that you used only your opinion to tell others what's good and bad so really all your post was was a bunch of "it's bad because I said". You gave reasons that are nothign but individual perception and opinion, so no **** that's what's going to get fired back. So did I not present an argument? Maybe, but I presented no less of an argument than you, mine was just a response. As for your attempt to single mine out by insulting my intelligence as well then perhaps it is you who should try again, my spelling and punctuation was not poor and I know how to use my caps lock. If that's the best you can do then I suggest that perhaps it is you who should try again.

I would also venture to say I did analyze it efficiently from an equally opinionated view, making comments on the original actors, Vic's ability to convey Ed's layered emotions and the way the actors fit the characters. If that isn't presenting an argument then you didn't present one either. Either way, it's opinion, your opinion isn't anymore fact than mine and you can hate it all you want but you're in no position to try to tell others they're wrong just because they like what you don't.

Keonyn wrote:

MORE UNITELLIGABLE STUFF.

So we have my argument, your non-analysis, my pointing out your non-analysis, and your continuining non-analysis.

Just because you say, "Well, the majority of people think that Vic captured the layers of Edward Elric, blah blah blah", doesn't make it an argument. You don't have any point other than, "Most people think it's good."

All your arguments are simple base "UH UH, YOU'RE WRONG" statements, rather than thoughtful debate. I say one thing, you simply say the opposite as your "argument". Unfortunately, that's what this entire argument has sunk into.

I didn't even want to bring up my problems with the FMA dub again to begin with, because I always get dragged into these absurd go-nowhere arguments with people who cannot provide simple analysis.

But like I said, the movie's dub is somewhat an improvement. For instance, I felt Vic geniunely cared about Edward's voice by the time it came and even managed to capture his attitude during the story. Alphonse, who I felt was one of the strong dub voices, shined even brighter.

I still prefer the original cast, however.

penguintruth wrote:

So we have my argument, your non-analysis, my pointing out your non-analysis, and your continuining non-analysis.

Just because you say, "Well, the majority of people think that Vic captured the layers of Edward Elric, blah blah blah", doesn't make it an argument. You don't have any point other than, "Most people think it's good."

All your arguments are simple base "UH UH, YOU'RE WRONG" statements, rather than thoughtful debate. I say one thing, you simply say the opposite as your "argument". Unfortunately, that's what this entire argument has sunk into.

The problem is that your own "analysis" runs counter to the majority opinion of the dub, which is that it is really quie excellent. You'd have a hard time finding any legitimate media sources or paid critics or even critics who have enough public cache to be taken seriously enough to write for a major website who would remotely agree with any of your comments about this dub.

Almost none of what you said rings true to me at all, and your little snipes at people like Chris Patton, wherein you said he has no talent, to me is extremely telling. You don't like the FMA dub because you're incapable of appreciating it, not because it's a bad dub and everyone else is wrong and you're right.

I mean, Vic Mignogna doesn't care about his character's voice? I'm gonna go ahead and assume you've never seen the guy talk about the role ever or ever read anything he's said about the role at all because that's just flat-out ignorance on your behalf. This is an example of you placing your own opinion of what the voice actor thinks of his role above what the voice actor has actually SAID about the role, and that's arrogance. Arrogance built on ignorance, which is the worst kind.

Look, if you don't like the dub, great, that's totally your perrogative. But to make big sweeping statements like yours which insinuate that everyone who likes the dub - which is the VAST majority of people - is "wrong" and that the characters sound "flat" - is pretty ridiculous. If you just prefer the Japanese, fine, but don't try and "prove" that the English dub is bad. Because in this case, most everyone with a remotely reasonable or fair ear for dubs - anyone with an educated outlook - basically disagrees with you.

penguintruth wrote:

Flat, unispired voices for characters that are charming, charasmatic, and intruiging lead to a representation of said characters as being superflous or awkward. For instance, the voice of Greed in the dub, Chris Patton, in my opinion fails to capture the charming and off-beat nature of his character. He lacks the haughty, arrogant charisma that Junichi Suwabe brought to the character. Unfortunately, this is par for the course as far as Patton's (lack of) talent is concerned. He brings no life to any characters he voices.

I'll concede the argument about Chris Patton in this role, as his performance as Greed was the one in the series I didn't like myself. He's done too much solid work elsewhere for me to accept your argument of him having no talent in general, however. (Check out either FMP series sometime. His rendition of Sousuke made that role.) His performance was also the gross exception for this series rather than the rule, and I don't recall any of the VAs having any problem carrying the emotions demanded of them.

Otherwise I'll let Zac's post do the talking on this issue.

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