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The Ultimate Madoka Recap and Homura's Lost Paradise


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ssjokg



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:36 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Madoka's wish allowed the other magical girl's agency and choices to remain valid.

Homura's broken wish did not.

Again, I will refer to Sayaka's and Homura's last meeting in the final arc of Rebellion. Sayaka definitely didn't want or needed to be saved by Homura. It was done by force, and against Sayaka's will. The other magical girls, were given no choice in the matter, nor consent, either.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you personally want other people forcing this on you, ignoring your wishes, making you forget your memories and experiences. Which ultimately effect who you truly are.
Other than the part where they forgot about her and would never know what happened. Hard to have agency if you arent aware of the truth from the start. Do they know what they are?Do they know why they have to fight wraiths? Do they know why they disappear? We know very well how Mami reacts when she finds out they have a possibility to become witches. That isnt manipulation to you? They are only missing imporant details that would affect them in major ways.

Sayaka clearly wanted to be alive again, we see it in the theater part in tv series and after she meats Kamijou and Hitomi at the end of the movie. It' is like the movie didn't make a point between the clash of duty and desire. And the Cycle still works(according to this movie), Sayaka really had no reason to act like as like she always does when something isnt going her way.

Pal, your last paragraph is literally what Homura was forced into because Madoka wanted to be a savior. She even started doubting her own memories. Clearly not a broken girl.

Did you not watch the series?
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Villain-chan





PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:37 pm Reply with quote
If people read the Wraith Arc manga (Which is canon, made by the same group that made the rest of the Madoka series) then they'd have an even bigger understanding of Homura, That said, since I already discussed this with TarsTarkas b4, I'll mostly just skip to the two points that ya'll mentioned that need pointing out.

Point one, Sayaka is still dead. She is only there becus of Madoka and having been in close proximity to Madoka and the universe rewrite. Homura could have easily killed every last person there besides Madoka and brain washed her so much that she forgot them. Why doesn't she? Why risk people (even if unlikely) coming to take Madoka from her place where she can be herself, exist, be free of her sacrifice which she shouldn't have had to make in the first place, which Homura failed to protect her (Which is a BIG part of why she does what she does at the end of rebellion), Why risk it? The answer is simple.

She knows Madoka would be crushed to learn her friends were killed and by Homura's hands and she doesn't want Madoka to hate her. I put emphasis on the former more than the latter as there are no rewrites is how Homura likely sees this given she doesn't have her time travel powers anymore and Madoka can't undo death and I'd like to point out, magical girls whose soul gem were destroyed b4 they ever became a witch, as in, weren't starting to witch out, likely were not saved by Madoka given the nature of Madoka's wish itself and its never told what becomes of them if their soul gem is destroyed in the rewritten universe that Madoka made. But I digress, this is why she just rewrites their memories, to protect Madoka and give her a chance at living a normal life again which she should've always had, but Homura failed her when she let her make that wish, that's why she does what she does at the end of the film. Sayaka, despite being dead, was still treated like the rest. (No idea what happens to those whose soul went to Madoka b4 witching out if they were to die a 2nd time, assuming they even can die a 2nd time that is.)

and point 2, Madoka was split from the law of cycles. We know NOTHING else. Why fans have to continue adding in lore we don't know as its not stated or confirmed in the show/movie/book themselves is beyond me... All we know is the law of cycles and Madoka were breaking, being split apart. Who knows if the law of cycles part of Madoka is even still working. In fact, its interesting that at the end of Rebellion we see Madoka (The one living as a normal girl) have her eyes change color to that of her law of cycles form when she starts to remember who she is b4 Homura intervenes, despite the two Madokas not even being in the same room. There are so many theories one can create just based on that alone, but it doesn't matter, thats fan created theories. Now Homura's line about even she would become her enemy someday can either be taken to mean Madoka (The one in front of her) or the law of cycles or both. I'm of the mind assuming her law of cycles part is still alive and out there that its both, otherwise its the Madoka in front of her that line was referring to there.

Either way this is why Homura looked so desperate (for lack of better words, one look at her expression and eyes will say it all) when she repeated the very same line she said who knows how many times to Madoka at the start of the series. Basically, if she loves her friends and family, and wants to protect and cherish them, then don't change. But just like Homura, Madoka also won't listen and will continue to sacrifice herself and Homura knows this, she knows but says it anyway out of some small hope Madoka will listen for once even though we know she won't as things currently stand. Movie 4 might have something that can change the outcome, we shall see.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2397
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:46 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
If a terrorist organization kidnapped you and spent several months brainwashing you, so that you would forget the last couple of years of your life/memories/experiences and do what they want; wouldn't you consider that a BAD thing.


"...Your reaction isn't very rational. If you don't like the things you saw just now, I'm afraid you're missing the big picture. Humans chose livestock to be food. In exchange, they're fed, allowed to reproduce and protected from predators all their lives. Cows, pigs, and chickens have a much higher rate of survival in captivity, more than they would in the wild. So you see, the relationship is mutually beneficial for both parties." - Kyubey

A lot of Madoka Magica has to do with morally grey territory. In Homura's case, she took away characters' agency to make their own choices, but she did leave them in a happier state of mind at the end. Would any of them choose the life Homura gave them if they became aware of this? I think some magical girls in general actually might, but I could not see that happening with the main cast, so I agree with you that what Homura did was extremely detrimental and disrespectful to them (including Madoka) as people.

But I think it is still morally grey territory based on perspective, and the movie itself knows this, even symbolizing it with inkblot imagery on screen when she calls herself "evil". The alternative was leaving characters to die (or be spirited away) again, and in her mind, Madoka wouldn't have sacrificed herself for everyone else.

But I would not consider that out of character for Homura. She has always thought of herself as a sacrificial lamb for Madoka, and she did everything to keep Madoka from being the same until it was too late and she had nothing left of her to keep going. Her character arc has always felt like it was missing something, and while I wouldn't consider Rebellion to be the full completion of her character arc (in the sense that we think of character arcs as overcoming personal flaws), it does feel like it is the ultimate consequence of her character as it was in the original series. I highly suspect (or at least I hope) the new movie leads to the rounding of her character arc in a positive directionーnot back to the tolerating loneliness she felt at the end of the original series, or even the "you're worth saving" attempt to salvage her self-worth near-ending of Rebellion, but to the awakening of understanding why Madoka did what she did, including her full acceptance and cooperation. It may feel a bit dragged out, but if that's the direction the story goes in, I think the whole of the series will be left even better than the original TV series' ending or the hypothetical "good end" of Rebellion.
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ssjokg



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:07 pm Reply with quote
Villain-chan wrote:
If people read the Wraith Arc manga (Which is canon, made by the same group that made the rest of the Madoka series) then they'd have an even bigger understanding of Homura, That said, since I already discussed this with TarsTarkas b4, I'll mostly just skip to the two points that ya'll mentioned that need pointing out.

Dont know what any of that means but sure since you discussed it with someone else I guess it is vaild to not mention here what that manga shows of Homura's character....

Villain-chan wrote:
Point one, Sayaka is still dead. She is only there becus of Madoka and having been in close proximity to Madoka and the universe rewrite. Homura could have easily killed every last person there besides Madoka and brain washed her so much that she forgot them. Why doesn't she? Why risk people (even if unlikely) coming to take Madoka from her place where she can be herself, exist, be free of her sacrifice which she shouldn't have had to make in the first place, which Homura failed to protect her (Which is a BIG part of why she does what she does at the end of rebellion), Why risk it? The answer is simple.
First of all semantics about Sayaka. She has a second chance at living regardless of what she is.



Villain-chan wrote:
She knows Madoka would be crushed to learn her friends were killed and by Homura's hands and she doesn't want Madoka to hate her. I put emphasis on the former more than the latter as there are no rewrites is how Homura likely sees this given she doesn't have her time travel powers anymore and Madoka can't undo death and I'd like to point out, magical girls whose soul gem were destroyed b4 they ever became a witch, as in, weren't starting to witch out, likely were not saved by Madoka given the nature of Madoka's wish itself and its never told what becomes of them if their soul gem is destroyed in the rewritten universe that Madoka made. But I digress, this is why she just rewrites their memories, to protect Madoka and give her a chance at living a normal life again which she should've always had, but Homura failed her when she let her make that wish, that's why she does what she does at the end of the film. Sayaka, despite being dead, was still treated like the rest. (No idea what happens to those whose soul went to Madoka b4 witching out if they were to die a 2nd time, assuming they even can die a 2nd time that is.)

This assumes Homura is an evil person that ONLY cares about Madoka. Which isnt true in the series or movie even when she mocks Sayaka at the end.

Villain-chan wrote:
and point 2, Madoka was split from the law of cycles. We know NOTHING else. Why fans have to continue adding in lore we don't know as its not stated or confirmed in the show/movie/book themselves is beyond me... All we know is the law of cycles and Madoka were breaking, being split apart. Who knows if the law of cycles part of Madoka is even still working. In fact, its interesting that at the end of Rebellion we see Madoka (The one living as a normal girl) have her eyes change color to that of her law of cycles form when she starts to remember who she is b4 Homura intervenes, despite the two Madokas not even being in the same room. There are so many theories one can create just based on that alone, but it doesn't matter, thats fan created theories. Now Homura's line about even she would become her enemy someday can either be taken to mean Madoka (The one in front of her) or the law of cycles or both. I'm of the mind assuming her law of cycles part is still alive and out there that its both, otherwise its the Madoka in front of her that line was referring to there.


Does Homura have to lie to Sayaka about the Cycle?No.

Not like space was being distorted. You cant fathom the two sides being connected at that point before Homura intervened? Madoka, and Sayaka, literally said "I was part of something greater".
Did the Cycle disappear because Madoka was trapped inside the Kyubei's seal? It is the same thing.

And it is Madoka. Her enemy would just be Madoka. Her enemy was never and will never be the system Madoka created but Madoka's choices and sense of duty that dont align with both of their wishes for he rto have a normal life.

Villain-chan wrote:
Either way this is why Homura looked so desperate (for lack of better words, one look at her expression and eyes will say it all) when she repeated the very same line she said who knows how many times to Madoka at the start of the series. Basically, if she loves her friends and family, and wants to protect and cherish them, then don't change. But just like Homura, Madoka also won't listen and will continue to sacrifice herself and Homura knows this, she knows but says it anyway out of some small hope Madoka will listen for once even though we know she won't as things currently stand. Movie 4 might have something that can change the outcome, we shall see.


Not shit?
Ofc the 4th will show why Homura's world is unstable. First of all, SHE isnt stable. The self loathing and suicide imagery from the moment she meets Sayaka is everywhere, even in the after credits.
That doesnt mean she is worse than Madoka, evil or ooc.
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Villain-chan





PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:15 pm Reply with quote
@ssjokg

Wraith arc has major spoilers so its kinda hard to discuss it without spoiling it but its centered on Homura and the world she lives in b4 Movie 3 happens. As such u get to know Homura and her thought processes more which are important to her character. If I say anything other than that it will be a spoiler but, it does answer a LOT and what it does (spoilers so can't say) it does great. If one was to read Wraith arc b4 seeing movie 3, it'd spoiler movie 3 which imo, shouldn't be spoiled over what spoiling some of Wraith arc as those 2 spoilers in Wraith arc aren't as important as the big spoilers in movie 3 which take up about half the run time.

Nothing I said assumes someone is evil, nor did I say Homura was evil, heck, I don't think I even called any of her actions evil. U can kill someone and not be evil. U can do bad things and not be evil or even be a bad person. There are situations that might force a good person to do bad things but that doesn't make them bad or evil. Life, and people, are not simple, it/we are not black and white which is a CORE theme of Rebellion, a giant big gray zone. It all depends on the context and Homura isn't bad or evil just to clarify my stance on her.

While its true Law of Cycles is still Madoka, u have to remember that Homura split off the Madoka whose been made to forget her purpose and other form from her law of cycles self. This is a subject thats hard to really talk about as a LOT of assumptions can get made here which is why I said its hard to know which of the two, if not both Madokas she was talking about there with that line. Movie 4 might answer this but just becus they're both Madoka, does not mean that Homura in her mind, can't view the law of cycles part of Madoka as a separate entity which, is the case at this point in time, even if its still in part Madoka herself, even if the Madoka next to Homura started to exhibit her other form, despite not combining with her other form. I'd also like to mention that we don't know what has become of Madoka's law of cycles form's self. Again, we know Madoka was split off from that form/part of herself, but we dunno what if anything she's doing, for all we know she could be sleeping due to being split off from Madoka.

Yeah I'm not entirely sure why u keep taking something I said and twisting it to something I never said but let me give u some advice. Don't expect movie 4 to do whatever u expect/want it to do. Hope but thats about the most anyone should do. Lest u expect and then get disappointed and or upset when it doesn't do what ya wanted it to do... also, nothing in movie 3 showed me Homura's remade universe is unstable, nor do I see anything in the trailer for movie 4 that backs ur statement up. Homura has been unstable herself though at points (Emphasis there) so thats true (Again, at points), but imo she's stable in her newly remade world. (Again, going off of what little we saw)
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rphjas
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Fayetteville NC
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Like the original GateKeepers ,they lost a physical or piece of their spirit when they opened and used the gates even if it wasn’t for a selfish reason . Yukino Houjo was willing to end her journey to protect the heart and smiles of the ones she loved. Ghost girl had opened her gate so often and so powerfully that only her true skull remained. Still, she was not evil. Her last bit of power returned the world to the state before her gate had allowed the invaders full access to our dimension. Madoka and her friends always try to protect the smiles the people they love. That seems to be a recurring theme in many series. Great ability and powers require a high cost to use them! Magical girls suffer so much. But they were deceived by Kyubey , imao .He never lies but he never offers the consequences of making a contract with him . The law of cycles is unknown until it’s experienced.
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