Forum - View topicANNCast - Right Stuffed!
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tuxedocat
 Posts: 2183 |
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Created this account just to say how much I have been enjoying the ANNCast. Keep up the great work! The last two podcasts have been an eye opener. I never realized how many little details go into licensing and releasing a title here.
Dubs or subs have never been an issue for me. My focus is usually on the art and storytelling. If I love the show, I will buy it regardless. Dubs are expensive, I can understand why so many titles have to go without one. Personally, I would rather have the title than not. While I think that titles like Emma and Kuroshitsuji (if ever licensed) would be nicely enhanced by a good dub, I wonder if it would be even more expensive to dub them than usual series. Both of those are set in Victorian England. American accents wouldn't work, and if the English accents weren't right, a lot of fans would probably complain. How many British V.A.'s are available here in the States? Sometimes it is painfully obvious when accents are faked. ("Blood+" immediately comes to mind) ----In the case of Kuroshitsuji, there is some humor to be had from listening to the chorus of Japanese accents singing "God Save the Queen"  I would accept a sub-only release of that title if that was the only way it could be licensed, though I suspect that reverse importation fears may be standing in its way as well...
And personal kudos to Shawne Klekner and RightStuf! I order from you guys all the time and am very happy that you are sending me my Baccano!! complete box set ahead of the release date! |
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Wetall
Posts: 70 |
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I actually have to agree with this. Looking at these forum debates for a long time, I can't help but notice that a lot of these arguments start because an author decides inject his opinion on the matter in a review or bashes one side of the argument in an editorial when they're clearly aware of just how much controversy it can provoke. I get the feeling that the authors aren't always watching what they're trying to say or are even deliberately trying to provoke some sort of controversy. I especially noticed this happening during the KnJ fiasco in these forums two years ago when Zac had clearly ridiculed those looking forward to the title and called it "kiddie porn" in his Answerman column when he didn't really look through the title (I mean, accusing someone of selling kiddie porn can seriously endanger that person and might be grounds for a libel suit if it isn't really true). I know things have changed now, but considering that localization companies and retailers probably look through this site for research purposes (it does have a good reputation after all), I really think it would be in ANN's best interest to avoid putting themselves in a position where they appear to be involved in the debate if they don't want to have overtly heated arguments going on in their forums. A lot of things they say in matters like these can clearly create sparks for the fuel, and can lead people to believe that the site itself supports one side and condemns the other, as opposed to it being strictly the individual opinions of the authors--This can compromise the authors' journalistic integrity in appearence and it isn't good for the site's reputation for quality editorials/reviews. I have to say, we already have enough heated arguments whenever a piece of news comes in with regards to the legality of lolicon here, if ANN wishes to minimize overtly heated arguments on forums with regards to the loli controversy, why don't the authors/editors just stop bringing it up in their editorials/reviews? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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The "just don't talk about it at all!" thing, when in many series it's a big part of the show, isn't fair to the critic. If the series is really heavily pushing the loli fanservice and the critic says nothing - or purposefully avoids saying that it creeped them out (or they enjoyed it), instead saying.. "if you like this sort of thing you'll like this", that's a worthless, spineless tack to take and makes for pointless reviews. If the loli fanservice in something creeps out the author of Shelf Life, she should say so. Not in a way that insults people that like that sort of thing (who are just as complicit in this while thing for being hypersenitive to any mention of it at all by anyone who isn't a staunch supporter), but telling her she's not allowed to express her opinion is no different from me telling forum users they're not allowed to say they enjoy loli titles. Shutting down the circular debate is not the same thing as censoring all discussion, all opinion. |
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Wetall
Posts: 70 |
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Then just watch your wording and keep the reviews on-topic--I don't think ridiculing people of one side or making something out of what isn't there is going to help either. The debate isn't going to stop either way, but I don't think it's actually very reasonable to not expect firestorms and overtly heated debates if you make statements/interjections that cause some people to believe you're trying to start them.
Last edited by Wetall on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I'm not willing to tell my writers you are not ever allowed to say anything that isn't either neutral or complementary about this subject. That is what it would take to completely end the "firestorms", which are little more than copy-pasted circular arguments. Those are easy to put a stop to. There is way too much hypersensitivty on either side and I'm not going to reward that behavior by censoring or silencing my writers, period. |
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Wetall
Posts: 70 |
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Well, you might see it as giving your writers the freedom to write by letting them inject their opinions on the subject matter in an editorial or column, but stopping threads based on the fact that there's nothing more than "just tired circular arguing" is an unreasonable act of censoring your own userbase. Even if the arguments are "repeated", it's their own "opinions" on the subject and their "reactions" to your authors' statements--Why "censor" your readers if you aren't willing to be consistent and "censor" your own writers who make articles that cause such discussions to happen? You're letting one side (the writers) do all the talking and "silencing" the readers because you feel that they have nothing else to say. If you're acting on the assumption that the sensitivity towards the issue is nothing more than "hyper" and dismiss these arguments as "circular", then I'll assume that you're acting on ignorance on the importance of the subject and the delusion of the "debate" being somehow over. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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So by your logic, if I allow Erin to say "there's a lot of loli fanservice in this show and I found it offputting and kinda creepy", then I also have to allow the same 6 or 7 people to hyperventilate about that as though it's some horrible personal insult or Erin's an idiot who doesn't "get" the show? If you want to come into the forums and say "I didn't find the loli fanservice creepy, I enjoyed it" that's fine. Re-starting the incredibly tired "nobody should ever say bad things about loli otherwise you're a nazi!!" obtuse, meaningless debate that never goes anywhere, that's what I'm going to put a stop to. Rare is the occasion where a review crosses a line and actually - and from a reasonable standpoint - actually insults the fans who like loli stuff. Someone expressing a preference for or against something is not a personal insult aimed at you, but that's how a lot of fans behave and that's really what's triggering this "debate". As I said, my writers are not going to be told to never ever discuss loli fanservice in their reviews. Their comments on the issue in the reviews will be managed to avoid potentially insulting the fans of such things, but when any mention of the subject that isn't neutral or complimentary is treated as a horrible personal insult, it's difficult to sympathize or honestly believe that their response is an honest, reasoned one based on good faith constructive criticism rather than a kneejerk angry response that simply triggers the same tired old debate. It's usually the same 3 or 4 people and at this point they're talking to themselves because neither side is listening. "Consistency" is not as important to me as reason or honesty. I have a vested interest in keeping this forum civil and a vested interest in making sure my writers have the freedom to express a reasonable opinion. At the same time, the forum users have every right to disagree in a reasonable manner. By "reasonable manner" I don't mean copy-pasting that Nazi poem and suggesting everyone who doesn't bravely defend loli stuff is an evil fascist, or screaming about how everyone who likes loli stuff is a pedophile. Neither of these responses are ever warranted by the usually tame opinion expressed in a review, but they come up over and over again. That's what I'm tired of, that's what I'll be putting a stop to because it's a pointless waste of time. |
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Wetall
Posts: 70 |
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Aggghhh. Why didn't you say that you just wanted to stop the mindless name-calling in the first place? All I've gotten as far as your "loli debate gets kaibash'd" thing is that you're tired of loli debates going on in these forums, everyone's gridlocked and that you feel that your readers have nothing else to say about the subject matter except for the same old things (what exactly, I had no idea). I thought you were going to stop the debates indiscriminately instead of actually bringing in some moderation, and considering the fact that your writers can sometimes provoke loli debates (for better or worse), I thought that shutting them down whenever a discussion pops up would've been unreasonable in and of itself. But just to be on the same page here, I don't think it would be justified to shut down a thread if someone gives a supported criticism for an author if a reader thinks he's being unreasonable in an article or a column, regardless of which "side" they're on. There is such a thing as constructive criticism--Please keep that in mind. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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I feel the need to point out the reviewers don't spark the debate. That would be the forum users who want to get their undies in a ruffle and can't take any constructive criticism about their beloved shows. Unless the reviewer is coming out and point blank saying fans of this are creepy, or stupid, etc then it is not on them if the debate gets started or carried to far. They're simply providing an honest review that shows in their opinion the pro's and con's of the show. It's called personal responsibility and it's on the actual users who carry it to that point with their posts. Last time I checked I didn't see any reviewers on ANN posting in the forum bashing fans of shows or trying to start heated debates.
Any competent reviewer is supposed to give an objective and honest opinion on a show. If a show is saturated with loli or moe elements, or any other either, to the point it's not just a facet of the show but drowns out the show itself then not mentioning it would be a failure on the reviewers part. That would be a bad review for not pointing out the plot was suffering from such tactics. The problem is, as Zac said, a whole lot of the fans of these shows cannot take one bad comment about the show period. If the reviewer doesn't practically sing the praises of the shows these knee jerk reactionary fans go ape shit and just spam/flame the thread. That's what Zac is tired of and quite clearly said that. Hell everyone is tired of that. The only other subject as tiring with such extreme people on both sides is the sub vs dub debate. However, both the loli and the dub/sub debates do have merit and are worth discussing. Zac or the staff simply saying no one here can talk about them period, nor can a reviewer mention those elements even if they are a legitimate part of the show, would be downright wrong and show a real poor sense of journalism as far as the reviews go. Telling people what they can or cannot say/talk about is wrong, and is also vastly different then saying HOW people can discuss the issue(s). There are worthwhile points to debate on the subjects but the fact is 90% of the people keep soapboxing the same rehashed arguments and are simply unreasonable and resort to acting like children with immature insults and flame posts. Such posts are a far cry from constructive criticism towards a review by a staff member here. It's just trolling at that point. |
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Top Gun
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Another good show this week, guys, per usual. I remember seeing that Fruity Pebbles commercial a near-infinite number of times way back in the day.
 Wish I could chime in on the Honey & Clover talk, but I've had it lying around for the better part of three years and still haven't even touched it.
I'm kind of curious as to what sort of people have been warning Justin about Ponyo. I sat through Howl's when it aired on Cartoon Network, and I got to see Ponyo in theaters, and at least in my humble opinion, the latter was substantially better-structured and paced than the former. More importantly than that, though, it was a genuinely charming and heartwarming story; I fully agree with the previous poster who compared its tone to something much more like Totoro than anything else. I don't know that one has to necessarily have children in order to get something out of it, but I do agree that one has to be able to see the world through a young child's eyes, where even making instant ramen becomes an act of wonder; the whole movie is full of whimsical little moments like that. Ponyo herself is absolutely adorable, and Sosuke's mom is a fantastic character in her own right (and a brilliant performance by Tina Fey, no less). And of course, as always, the animation and artwork is nothing short of orgasmic. I can honestly say that I think it's one of my favorites out of the Miyazaki works that I've seen, and I can't wait to buy the DVD when it's released. In the broader sense, though, I do agree that the Oscar is most likely going to Up, and deservedly so. I unfortunately haven't had the chance to see either Coraline or Fantastic Mr. Fox, and I don't know that I'll get to Princess and the Frog, but I can't picture anything else dethroning Up in my mind. Once again, Pixar proves that, if you put quality of story before all else, you can produce truly amazing work. Any movie that can feature squirrel-obsessed talking dogs, and yet bring me to the verge of tears (from that heart-rendingly beautiful opening montage), has to know what it's doing. Awesome to have you on here as a guest, Shawne; you had some great personal insights into how to keep an anime-related business healthy in times like these. I honestly can't say that I've bought any of Nozomi's releases myself, though that's not disparaging their quality in any way; the more recent series just haven't been from genres that I'm a particular fan of. (There are a few of the older series, specifically Boogiepop and The Third, that I could easily see myself picking up, though.) That being said, I've still contributed more than my fair share to Shawne's heating bill, seeing as how my archived list of RightStuf orders comprises the vast majority of my DVD collection and probably adds up to a total that I would be quite depressed to learn. The Bargain Bin has been an absolute godsend, as have the frequent 40% off sales and rarer 10/25 super-sales; I made out like a bandit on a few out-of-print Geneon titles in the most recent rendition of the latter. I've always been greatly impressed with RightStuf's level of service and quality: you're always very good with communicating on the status of orders, and the package tracking even on economy shipping is incredibly useful. I plan to keep the majority of my anime purchases going through RightStuf; even if I occasionally have to pay a bit more, the customer service makes it worthwhile, and I know that my money's staying completely within the industry.
(Also, if you're scanning this thread for possible suggestions for as-yet-unlicensed, I'll definitely second/third/whatever Dennou Coil, which is an absolutely fantastic little gem that sadly seems to have gone under the radar. One more plug for Kaiba, too...this is something I don't think anyone else would touch, but its crazy Seussical surrealism really needs to be seen by far more people than it has.) As for the whole sub-only release debate, guess I'd have to place myself in the "sadly accepting" camp. I know what the state of the industry and the larger economy is right now, and I know that it's much more of a struggle for domestic distributors to stay in the black than it was four or five years ago. And knowing these things, I completely understand that, for certain series, the only way a release is going to break even, much less be profitable, is if it's done in sub-only format. There are several unlicensed series, including the two I mentioned above, that I'd love to see released even in sub-only form, just so I'd get the chance to finally own them. All of that being said...I'm also a big dub fan, and for the vast majority of the shows I've seen that have the option, I prefer watching in English. To me, having a dub available is a substantial part of what makes a show's DVDs worth owning; in fact, I don't think I own a single sub-only release as of right now. That isn't to say that I'd never buy a series in this form, and there are a few I probably will at some point, but they're further down my priority scale than several other series that do have subs. (No spreadsheet here, just a simple list.  ) Like I said, despite my personal preferences, I do understand that this is simply where the anime industry as a whole finds itself right now, and there's not much I can really do to change it except ride it out and hope for better days in the future.
(I'm not even getting into the whole loli issue, since I had more than enough of that in another recent thread. )
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Cheesecracker
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Tongue in check, just a bit...
I was surprised by the 'dub or nothing' attitude some took. Not that they(dubs) are a bad thing, but treating them like an 'always better' necessity? I just imagine being served food from all over the globe: mochi curry lau lau spring rolls adobo chow fun tacos lutefisk and then insisting on putting ketchup on all of it. Dubs can be like ketchup. I like ketchup, but it does not 'always' make 'it' better. What can I say, I can't make it thru a foreign video without help. Arguably, the taste of food does not change because you used a fork instead of chopsticks. It's not a perfect analogy, but that's what I would liken subs to. The minimum you need to get the job done. So here I am eating a hot dog with ketchup and mustard. It's a kosher hot dog and yet I am not wearing a yarmulke. Nor am I pretending that is made out of tofu. I guess I'm just trying to say there are lots of great 'flavors' out there that don't necessarily need fixing. You don't have to be hardcore either and try not to be in denial regarding what you're actually consuming. I dunno. Personally, I'd gladly read subs exclusively if it meant the prices would be kept low, making it affordable to buy and *keep* buying(I don't think the concept of continuity gets enough weight) DVDs and the company running. If they can afford the dubs from a business standpoint, more power to them. However, if it raises the prices to a point that I can't keep up with their output (If I wanted to) well...I just hope they manage to find a happy medium. |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
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You mean Ocean Studios in Vancover,BC? No,No,No you do not understand how costly it would be to invest in a ADR Ocean Studios dub for an anime that's only sold mainly throught the label's own retailer. First of all, TRSI international rarely licenses anime and most of thier income relies heavly on thier online retail. Hell,RightStuf is an even smaller label then both Section23 and Media Blasters combined. If this was 2005, then it would be worth a shot to invest in a Ocean dub because then the economy would be in better shape and the value of the US dollar would be worth more. But it's almost 2010, R1 labels like Rightstuf don't even have the assets that Hollywood has,noir do they have the time to audition, cast and invest in a decent dub. If Rightstuf took the chance now, it would be a poor investment that would sink them. You have to remember that Geneon USA invested dozens into several dozen Ocean ADR productions, the result is that not one of them even sold well at all. |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
Posts: 703 |
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Mr. Justin is a former at CPM so of course he knows far more then TLO who is praticly oblivious to how the anime market works. The boom of 2002-2007 is long over. There's little market for dubbing and for anime to reach a mainstream american market. We should all be greatful titles are even getting licensed in the first place both that guerntee a dub and that aren't mainstream enough to sell more or warrant a dub. |
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zrdb
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Maybe so-but until the economic situation improves I too will not be buying any sub only releases unless it's something that I really want badly-to me the R1 subbed only releases really aren't much better than fansubs-maybe nice cases (if we're lucky-and no extras to speak of)-so I'll just be watching fansubs for the foreseeable future.
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catstigereye
Posts: 343 |
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I like to have sub and dub formats but will buy sub only releases! Right Stuf Did well with The Third Girl with the blue eye. I will Buy Bandai Ent's release of hayate the combat butler as well.
Sub releases like Princess Resurrection make me happy! heck i own Spice and Wolf and will never listen to the english voice cast. 
But I do listen to the english of Fruits Basket, Cow Boy Bebop, Kiddy Grade, GunSlinger Girl, Inuyasha, Now bleach has to be sub only! It's all about your taste! but not buying the animes you enjoy is whats killing the industry. I would like to see japan offer a sub only online site for pay download world wide. they might get some profits back. |
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