Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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When your stick is sized to measure the two extremes Luke moves between, yeah, maybe she doesn't have a significant improvement--many entrants in this tournament don't. Starting out an selfish self-centered asshole and ending up saving the world is not somehow inherently superior to being a character that "starts out as weak and/or flawed but gradually overcomes initial deficiencies to become stronger and/or more respectable." To me this is a case where quality in the execution of the improvement is an important consideration, not just the "distance" of the improvement. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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This is the most improved character tournament, though. Say you have two people that can only bench press 10 pounds. After some training one can now press 50 pounds and the other 100 pounds. Who improved more should be obvious.
In Kouichi's case he was still kind of a jerk at the end, but just a more likable one. Luke has almost no trace of jerk left in him at the end. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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That's definitely oversimplifying things. How a character gets to their end point is definitely something that needs to be factored in. You can't just have someone go from being a jerk one episode to being the bestest person ever in the next and say they had the most improvement because that's just sloppy writing. The development itself is also being judged, or at least it is by me (and, apparently, Veers as well). That said, I still voted for Luke and don't plan on changing, based on arguments and the fact that I've seen uh ... half of Figure 17 I think? A couple of episodes at least and while I remember liking Tsubasa at least a bit, she didn't leave a great impression on me. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Well obviously if the 2nd person uses steroids to reach that point, it's no good.
But that's definitely not Luke's case. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I'm not really that much of a wizard, mostly it's =SUM, =IF, and =COUNTIF, a couple =VLOOKUP functions, and a heaping helping of being anal about how I lay out the data. Anyway, squeezing in my vote. Group C-1 Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Sesshomaru Seen neither, liked arguments for the latter better. Group C-2 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Wakana Sakai, Tari Tari [/i] Voting for: Wakana Rikuo's change of heart felt to me pretty immediate in the first episode once he realized robots were capable of their own thoughts and feelings. Dtm's case for Wakana is enough for me to vote for her. Group C-3 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Yakumo Fuji, 3x3 Eyes Voting for: Yukari Don't really know either, so going with the clear favorite. Group C-4 Luke Fon Fabre, Tales of the Abyss vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 Voting for: Luke Don't know either, and following the debate, this is a tough call, but I know Luke had pretty enthusiastic (if limited) support even during the nominations, so I'm going with that. Group C-5 Wabisuke Jinnouchi, Summer Wars vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for: Ami Wabisuke does stop being so much of a jerk, but he wasn't that bad to begin with. Then, after his dramatic change, well, there's not much left for him to do. Ami, on the other hand, has more complex issues to deal with, primarily being comfortable with her own identity, but also confidence and relationship issues (both platonic and romantic). Group C-6 Ryuki Shi, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy Voting for: Watashi Judging by the write-up, Ryuki sounds like he was at least partly faking his incompetence. Finding proper motivation is important to, but not enough here. Group C-7 Byakuya Kuchiki, Bleach vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service Voting for: Kiki Byakuya realizing he doesn't need to constantly be such a hardass is a not insignificant improvement, but his personality is largely unchanged. Group C-8 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Julian Mintz, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Voting for: Seras Arguments imply that Julian starts off as a decent character and only has so much room for improvement, so Seras it is. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4615 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Group C-1
Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Sesshomaru Wouldn't care too much either way I guess, but I figure Renton just needed the right pushes to to become who he really is at heart, while Sesshomaru has to go from the early demonic antagonist to being the lesser evil, to being reluctant ally, to reluctant guardian, to a b rother who isn't rewally all that bad. Group C-2 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Wakana Sakai, Tari Tari Voting for: Wakana Sakai I'd say Rikuo was already open to accepting androids and doesn't struggle to much accepting them more. Group C-3 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Yakumo Fuji, 3x3 Eyes Voting for: Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka Group C-4 Luke Fon Fabre, Tales of the Abyss vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 Voting for: Tsubasa Shiina Group C-5 Wabisuke Jinnouchi, Summer Wars vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for: Wabisuke Jinnouchi Group C-6 Ryuki Shi, The Story of Saiunkoku vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy Voting for: Watashi Group C-7 Byakuya Kuchiki, Bleach vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service Voting for: Kiki Group C-8 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Julian Mintz, Legend of the Galactic Heroes] Voting for: Julian Mintz |
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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A better analogy would be say you have one person who can only bench 10 pounds but has the physical maturity to buff up and bench 100, and does so, and you have one person who can only bench 10 pounds and doesn't really care about lifting and is built such that they probably couldn't bench much more than 30 pounds even with some practice but their best friend encourages them to try it any way and after a while they can bench 30 while the other person is now benching 100. If both gave it their all and reached their goal/limit for the time being, who improved more? |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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The first person because they didn't have to rely on another person for their improvement. It's more impressive changing under your own power than changing due to the influence of others. People are very stubborn and general believe they're in the right. To step back and recognise you're a dick isn't so easy.
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I think we've gotten as much mileage as we can from this analogy and then some at this point.
Clearly in the match-up that this is about, there are very differing opinions and it will be interesting to see who wins, though there isn't much time for any more votes to get in. And whoever gets knocked out will obviously not be great for some people but in these tournaments, that's something you need to get over pretty damn fast. Trust me 
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Last edited by Veers on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I said I was going to change some of my votes in C-1 and C-3 if I saw some strong arguments. And a number of people have put forward arguments compelling enough to convince me that I should change my votes. However, it doesn't look like vote changes that I intend would change the outcome of the matches, and so I don't see a reason to change them when it won't matter. But I thought I should at least explain why I haven't changed my votes despite persuasive arguments as to why I should (hope that made sense).
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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I think sometimes people need to be told they're being dicks in order to take that necessary step back. Humans are social creatures, and when you really look at it, the improvements in most of the characters in this tournament were brought about at least in part by the influence of other people. It tends to ring hollow when a character goes, "Welp, I'm a pretty terrible person right now, so I guess I should fix that," because, as you said, realizing the truth all on your own isn't easy. In fact, I would go so far as to call it near impossible. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
Even Youko, who looks like she will win the entire tournament, had huge amounts of help. Judging characters purely on what percentage of improvement they achieved on their own is giving far too much weight to one small piece of criteria. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Well the nature of this tournament is quantitative. If the title was "Character with the best improvement" or something that'd lend itself more to a qualitative approach.
But it is possible, though. It just might take something huge to bring it about. Which, in Luke's case, was him causing spoiler[the death of thousands of people.] Also, like I said before, that was the first time he changed. He goes through a 2nd change after that too, so consideration for that is necessary as well. Really I just don't see how he's any inferior to some girl from some show I've never heard of who apparently goes from being shy to being not-so-shy. But obviously I can't speak from experience. |
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