Forum - View topicNEWS: Canadian Arrested for Importing Loli-porn Manga
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Bisuketto
 Posts: 153 Location: Middle America |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sorry, but after I responded to your post I saw another part within it and wanted to reply to that piece. Comparing two items that have nothing in common with each other is moot. Eating fast food is one person's responsibility to thyself. They know, or rather should know, that eating greasy fat-enriched food will cause them harm. Comparing fast food with pornography/hentai with the argument presented is contrasting. See my previous response above which deals with the second part of the argument. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
s_j
Posts: 162 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
In that very same paragraph, I've noted that actual crime statistic show a downward trend, even as pornography has proliferated with internet. Also, in the very paragraph above it, I said that anyone who thinks porn has no ill effects is naive...basically, I conceeded that there surely are rapists who were indeed driven to commit violence because of porn. The question is, does that happen so often that it is overwhelmingly in the public's interest to censor speech? The courts say no. I say no. And with all due respect, you just dodged the question. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mwebmistress
 Posts: 9 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I know, that's what the point of my post was...to differentiate doing something that would harm yourself, and doing something that would harm another person.
No I heard you; unfortunately (as in the fact that it's happening at all isn't enough to do something about it) and fortunately (that it's not happening "enough"), it's true. That's why I didn't say anything about it. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
s_j
Posts: 162 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It's not that the problem isn't being addressed...rapists are arrested, and many of them get counseling in jail. Things should, and are being done...but they must be done in the least restrictive way as possible, without affecting the rights of innocent, law-abiding citizens. Wholesale censorship does not pass that test. (I'm not directing this to you specifically, but with long threads like this one things kinda get garbled together...  )
You're right it's unfortunate things like that happen, but it's a price we have to pay, because the alternative of a thought police-state is rather unthinkable. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
mwebmistress
Posts: 9 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I understand, but I would be willing to sacrifice if it would prevent someone from having to go through something like that.....it's kind of hard to understand if something like that has never happened to you............................................................................ 
It's ok, I understand. I frequently have to do the same thing in long threads.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
penguintruth
 Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Whether or not a person actually turns their perverted fantasies into reality is irrlevant to the case. This isn't about the actions of child rapists. This is about whether collecting loli hentai should be actionable with punishment. The free world can't (or shouldn't) police free thought or the quiet expression of it. Nobody's harming a single person when they view loli hentai. IF go out and rape a child, or actively plan to, then that's wrong, and punishable. But until they do that, they deserve the benifit of a doubt, no matter how disgusting their fantasies might be. And so, once again, I must say that actions that a person who collects loli hentai MIGHT have are totally irrelevant, just as those actions a violent person might have after viewing a violent movie or playing a violent video game. The only action that IS happening here is collecting loli hentai. NOBODY is being harmed. We can stand on our heads and say "what if" all we want, but that doesn't pertain to the matter at hand. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
mwebmistress
Posts: 9 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Like I said, not everyone can be held accountable for their actions, like some mentally ill people, because they don't know what they're doing.
Well, just like I'm saying "what if it does?", You're saying "What if it doesn't?" You can't really esacpe the fact that it could or couldn't happen. Because...well... it could or it couldn't....
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
People being forced into doing porn is a crime. Seriously though, is being forced into a porno that much worse than just being forced into having sex? I don't see how it is. Both are terrible crimes, and the latter would happen just as often with or without pornography. Remember, prostitution is the oldest profession.
You mean this kid wasn't a total pervert when he was 6? Let me guess, he started looking at porn around, what, puberty maybe? Hmmm, yup, it must have been the porn what did it.
Chicken or egg?
I believe that it has not been effectively SHOWN to cause harm to anyone. It might. A whole lot of things might. Most food has, at one point or another, been accused of killing people, and most of those same food products have, at one point or another, been claimed to be very healthy for you. Follow the facts, not the fiction. If there were a number of RELIABLE studies that proved fairly conclusively that lolicon porn had a causal effect on violent sexcrimes then I would probably advocate it's restriction in some form or another, but so far all there are is claims, speculation, and personal opinion on the matter. That, to me, is not enough to legislate on.
Sure, almost certainly.
Yes, but I never argued otherwise. You implied that pornographic material was either responsible for implanting the idea of comiting sex crimes into people's heads, or at the very least that it reinforced existing ideas. Neither claim has any evidence behind it, it's pure speculation. It's equally likely that sex crime offenders have those ideas from other sources, such as their upbringing, and only seek out related pornography because that pornography matches up to their interests. Would reading "Playgirl" turn a straight man gay? Or would it me more likely that a man who regularly reads Playgirl is probably gay already, and is merely seeking out pornography that suits his tastes? If he does read Playgirl, does that mean he'll necessarilly commit rape against guys?
Lolicon porn has a legitimate use. It can get you off (if that's your thing). Achieving sexual release is a time honored stress and pain reliever, and is genrally believed to reduce agression (hence the reason highscool football players are discouraged from having sex before their games). You might not use porn for such a purpose, and you might not advocate it for such a purpose, but the porn industry is a multi-billion dollar one, so obviously plenty of Americans are perfectly fine with pornography, even though, like many other topics, it's not generally discussed in polite conversation.
Waht did the judge do about it in court? Generally such things are thrown out. Stop signs are there to prevent traffic accidents. They can't make the law "as long as nobody is coming", because sometimes that's hard to judge (which is why we have judges). It seems you were caught in an abuse of the law's intent, and that is unfair, but the law was put in place for sound reasons, even if those reasons do not always apply.
Well yeah, if the reader is a double amputee, but in such a case I don't see him commiting too many sex crimes either.
I reference you to this list:
Of things that we'd have to do without if the guiding criteria is that they MIGHT hurt someone.
We're talking about hentai in this thread. Which thread did you mean to post to?
And it's fine for you to sacrifice of yourself. I suggest making donations to relevant causes such as women's shelters. But nothing gives you the right to sacrifice someone else's right for something they don't believe in.
Yes, ANYTHING "could" happen. What we're saying is that "if something could happen" is not an actionable grounds to base a law on. To make something illegal, it has to be pretty clear that it WILL, without almost no doubt, lead to a crime being commited. Just because something might possibly, in a very small number of people, lead to a crime being commited, is not reason enough to base a law around it. You can prosecute the breaking of the law itself, you can even prosecute conspiracy or attempt to commit that crime, but you cannot criminalize thinking about commiting a crime, or the first people to be arrested would have to be all those best selling crime authors and cop show writers. Down with the writers of CSI! Those potential bastards! |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
mwebmistress
Posts: 9 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Uhh..no..I suggest you not talk about that, because you know nothing of the circumstances. I know why he started looking at porn, but it wasn't a valid reason. And I'm not going to bother to explain why or what happened because of it because it's way too personal. I was just giving an example. And yes it was what did it. You don't know what happened.
Like I said, it's easy to say something like that when it hasn't happened to you. Again, I would sacrifice in order to prevent something like that from happening to someone else. Do you know what it's like to be raped or molested? I'm actually asking. I could understand maybe being concerned with sacrificing your freedom of speech, or opinions, but porn and hentai don't really have anything to do with freedom of speech, and I think that if people can't sacrifice something as pointless as that in order for someone to be saved from the trauma of being raped or molested, then that's pretty selfish. Of course, I'd rather them act out on a picture than in real life. But having the picture is just feeding the fire.
I was replying to someone's post about pornography IN THIS THREAD. Pornography and hentai are almost the same thing, so it's not off-topic.
Oh and uh...I agree with that...lol, I don't see how smoking and drinking is beneficial at all, so yeah, it'd actually be nice if they were to go. The rest of that stuff has more good than bad effects (except maybe junk food), so those really don't count |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
s_j
Posts: 162 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What would *you* be sacrificing? You're suggesting that it's okay for *other* people's rights to consume porn be taken away. It certainly is easy to call for other people's rights to be infringed under the guise of protecting people from at worst a phantom menace, at best unsubstantiated scare mongering, and that seems pretty selfish to me. Porn and hentai has everything to do with free speech. Free speech is just that...it is not selective. Obscenity laws may try to run around it, but even they are now under heavy scrutiny, and I feel rightfully so.
That's exactly the danger of this kind of social legislation...suddenly anything that anyone might find offensive or has even a remote possibility of causing harm is under attack. Would you suggest that we make laws based on what the most idiotic, obsessive, unstable, or violent people MIGHT do? Or that we try to predict every crime before they happen, a la Minority Report? And why stop at sex crimes? Why not go after potential murderers based on movie viewing habits? Potential adulterers who read romance novels? Potential shoplifters for the color of their skin? That kind of thinking will invariably lead to the ugliest form of profiling. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Haiseikoh 1973
 Posts: 1590 Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think everyone's in agreement here that we can all agree to disagree. Right?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ShellBullet
 Posts: 1051 Location: I hit things, with my fist. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
First, I should point out that I was not talking about pornagraphy in general, only pornagraphy that depicts sex with children. Do not confuse the two. Second, I never meant to imply that the material was responsible for implanting the idea in anyone's mind; the man in question sought out this manga because he was interested in the first place. Reinforcing such ideas? I didn't imply it, I said it! The theory that somehow loliporn inhibits violence towards children is shaky at best, that is not the way the human mind works! I have no phsychological proofs to back this up, but in all fairness neither do you have any contrariwise (not that I'm certain what good it would do as such things can be manipulated to say anything people want them to say). It is akin to the debunked idea that venting anger is a way to get rid of it; people that constantly vent their anger only become angrier by doing so.
This is clearly not a "polite conversation"  Remember my above comment about pornagrpahy in general. The point you are missing is that children are not appropriate objects of sexual objectification. Does that even need to be pointed out? I hope that everyone on this board at least realizes that!
The judge? I didn't even go to court. Why would I even bother contesting when I was so obviously in the wrong? I was not happy about the $200 fine or the pointless traffic school I had to attend, but I had no choice. Yes, the law was put into place for good reasons, which was my whole point!
I was contrasting lolicon hentai to pornagraphy. Pornagraphy is an expression of acceptible human desires, or at least it can be. Raping children is not an acceptible action. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Doddler
Posts: 20 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
People have been forced into things they don't want to do since the start of time. It's kinda a moot point, because if they're forced into doing pornography, then its illegal in the first place... Obviously, you'd expect almost all publicly and legally available pornography to be willing and paid actors.
I'm no psychologist, so I won't state anything as fact here. But tell me, do you really, honestly think that he became strange because of porn? Because porn is just videos of people engaging in sexual intercourse, for the purpose of being titilating and exciting to the viewer. Its not like its any sort of mind altering propaganda. So do you really think that this kid would have grown up to be a picture perfect human being, but that porn 'corrupted' his mind and degraded him to what he became? Or do you think his perversion simply became apparent when you realized he was looking at porn? Was he weak of mind, and grasped at the first thing that came to him? Porn is no mind altering drug, but sex can be. Perhaps that even without pornography he would have developed the same fetishes.
I'm going to quote dean on this one: Not to mention running samples the wrong way and drawing bogus conclusions. They'll say things like "x% of sex offenders look at porn", as if that statistic means anything at all about the likelihood of porn users to commit sex crimes. If you want to know that, you need to know the percentage of porn users that commit sex offenses, which is a completely different measurement.
Often leads to crime you say? Perhaps you don't know the scope of what you're talking about. Pornography is absolutely huge. I'll quote an article on CBS. -$10 billion plus is spent yearly on porn by americans alone. -In the US, there are "well over 800 million rentals of adult videotapes and dvd's in video stores across the country." -Cable companies are pulling in huge revenue from on demand adult programming. "In 2002, Comcast, the nation's largest cable company, pulled in $50 million from adult programming.". It gets better. -Then there are the big hotel chains: Hilton, Marriot, Hyatt, Sheraton and Holiday Inn, which all offer adult films on in-room pay-per-view television systems. And they are purchased by a whopping 50 percent of their guests, accounting for nearly 70 percent of their in-room profits. One hotel owner said, "We have to have it. Our guests demand it.” ...Oh my, you're telling me that half the people staying at holiday inn are in great danger of committing sexual crimes? I better watch out! /end sarcasm
In this case, I will make myself an example. I am a fan of adult anime materials. I have imported adult manga, doujinshi, and even games, from japan. Some of the content I have may even be considered loli (nothing too bad though), but definately not to the extent of the person in question in this article. To make it even more interesting, I even live in canada, just a few hours south of Edmonton. However, there is some firm differences in what I enjoy, as the material I import is in good tastes. Lots of my packages have been inspected by customs, and in only one case did they hold it for review, and in that case released with a note informing me that nothing has been found about them that would deem them illegal by canadian law. I tread in the clear. So presumably, I am one of those people you hate. I have read manga, doujinshi, adult anime works, some of which with younger characters. Am I a terrible person? I have a respectable job, am active in my community, never had a criminal record of any kind, and even been dating a wonderful girl for some time (who is actually older than I am). Am I a danger to society? Hell no. I'm just a normal person like you and I, leading a normal life. On the side as a hobby, I watch and collect, and enjoy anime, manga, and games. Some of which is erotic in nature, but is that a bad? I don't really feel that way. And incase you're wondering, it is definately possible to enjoy anime pornography and not like that kind of thing in real life. My interests tend to remain mostly in the realm of anime. Thats not to say I don't have interest in a real life companion, but thats different you know. I'm already with someone right now 
I feel sorry for the guy in the article. No matter how the case comes out, even if he comes out scotch free, with all his books, his life will never be normal again. His neighborhood would shun him and even throw him out, or even be agressive against him, his chances of keeping and holding a job drop considerably, its likely he will alienate many of his family and friends. Its a bad deal, no matter what the outcome. ...Man, I gotta get some sleep, writing something like this takes waaaay too long
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Apparently not, good example though. I've got one supporting my side involving bigfoot (but I can't give any more specifics thatn that because They are listening).
And I can imagine it's hard to be objective about it when it has happened to you. I'm sorry for that, but the fact remains that you do have to look at the law objectively, and when laws are made in fits of passion they tend to be more destructive than the crimes they intend to prevent (such as prohibition).
Sort of. I'd rather not go into it myself, but I did have a slightly creepy experience once. I do believe that rape is an abhorent thing. I can barely even stand to watch shows that deal with rape in a realistic manner (for example I had to stop watching Tenjo Tenge within the first few episodes), the whole subject just makes me uneasy, but that doesn't mean that that should have any influence on the next person having access to the same material, whether or not I enjoy it myself. Now as for porn, I like it. Just like hundreds of millions of other Americans. It's good stuff.
Sure they do. The pornographers want to tell their stories (generally involving sex), and millions of Americans want to hear it. Sure, very pornos have truly classic stories to them, but there have been plenty of blockbuster movies and tv shows that have had porno-quality plots (minus the sex).
Then make your case. Do the research. Develop a case study or two that prove conclusively that pornography CAUSES sex crimes. So far there have been none to do that successfully. I'm sorry but a great deal of heresay and conjecture just doesn't cut it.
Says you.
So, you and I agree that smoking is bad, and you believe that drinking is bad too (I'm a bit on the fence there, as I know that alcohol can have some ammusing, if not enlightening effects). The problem is that most people wouldn't agree with us there, and it's not our place to impose our wills so freely against others. Maybe you could set up a little dictatorship somewhere though, or get a few likeminded individuals and set up an oligarchy.
Why would pornography that involves sex with children have a stronger effect in warping someone's mind than pornography that involves "normal" sex? If lolicon feeds the desire to rape children then regular porn would certainly feed the desire to rape adults, wouldn't it?
Fair enough. I'm not making the arguement that it DOES inhibit their desires to act out in the real world. My only position on the matter was that it MIGHT, and that both possibilitie were equally valid given the lack of evidence to support either side. For a while there you seemed to be arguing that it DID in fact support their existing ideas, and all I was doing was pointing out why that is not a logical position to hold (although you can certainly BELIEVE it's true, you can't use it as a justification for anything, since it's just your own speculation).
Yes, but on the other hand there are no children in lolicon hentai, only stylized depictions of children. There is room for the two to be distinct within a person's mind. Also, while WE both agree that children are not "appropriate objects of sexual objectification", that's out opinion (shared by most of the community of course). We can't enforce that opinion on others. While I would look down on someone for holding that opinion, I couldn't penalize them for it, unless they acted in a manner that actually harmed others.
So YOU think you were in the wrong? I would have contested it. Generally in cases like that (where following the letter of the law is not actually necessary), the judge will generally just toss it without review, so long as you don't have a record of reckless driving. You should bear that in mind, it'll save you a lot on fines and liscense points.
Then why did you run the stop sign if you believed the law (which told you not to anyways) was a good one?
Yeah, I know you were. Apparently you didn't get my little joke there, and I'm certainly not explaining it further. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group