Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Merry Holidaymas
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Sunday Silence
 Posts: 2047 |
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Walking away before this turns ugly....walking away..... |
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BitShifter
 Posts: 23 |
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Nope, just pointing out that libraries loan out CDs/DVDs for free, there are DVD recorders and DVRs that can be used to record movies and TV shows for free, and there are boom boxes that can copy CDs and cassettes for free. Did these all turn us into morally insensitive pirates? But instead of driving to the library or pressing buttons on consumer electronics to watch stuff for free (and potentially re-watch), teens nowadays are pressing buttons on their computers to watch stuff for free, and now it's morally insensitive. And if you say that taxes support the library's purchases, so content creators get money; and there's a monthly cable bill to be paid, so content creators get money; then try explaining to your son the moral difference between: 1. Going to the library to check out the first 26 episodes of FMA: Brotherhood; 2. Using a DVR to record the first 26 episodes of FMA: Brotherhood from Adult Swim on Saturday nights, and 3. Downloading a torrent of the first 26 episodes of FMA: Brotherhood from the internet and watching it on a PC. I might tell him that in the first two cases, I pay money that helps the content creators, and in the last case he's a morally insensitive thief, and he's likely to say, "But Dad, you already pay taxes and the monthly cable bill--so what difference does it make where I watch FMA? Don't they get their money anyway?" |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Let us not be pessimistic over the utility of such a term. A semantic analysis of the word need not be as circular as the one you provide, though it will, admittedly, be nevertheless complicated by the sorts of relativism and subject-dependence you mention.
By giving this example, to what end do you wish to argue? Intuitively, teaching this child of the difference between the recipients of the paid fees in each case, and thereby of the fact that the creators only receive a share in the first two cases, would suffice for them to grasp the morally-relevant difference between these cases and the third one. If this child were to consider all cases to be morally comparable in sole virtue of the fact that money is paid to some party in each, it would be apt to accuse them of failing to acknowledge all the relevant facts. It is rightfully presumed that you are aware of such points already, and as such I must ask this: do you hold that the "problem" outlined by this example is that the child in question may plausibly fail to understand the distinct implications of each case, and thereby fail to acknowledge their moral differences? This is presumed, though one wishes to understand the rhetorical thrust of your contribution with greater certainty. |
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BitShifter
Posts: 23 |
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Yes, that was my point. Many kids would think that because they can easily watch these episodes on TV "for free" or get them from the library "for free", there's no reason they can't watch them on the internet "for free." The actual fact that money is exchanging hands between third parties in the background (me, the cable company, the library, the publisher, the ISP, etc.) that makes two legitimate and the other not may not be immediately obvious. Anway, I was just poking a slight bit of fun at Brian's response and bold statement that the internet is raising a generation of morally insensitive thieves. Some truth in that, I think, but not entirely. Copyright has taken a lot of hits over the years, from cassette recorders, copiers, VCRs, PCs, scanners, and CD/DVD burners; though I agree the biggest hit of all has to be broadband internet. Still, I don't think "teh internets" are solely responsible for turning people into pirates; I claim it's been a four-decades-long process of copying content, both legally and not-so-legally, that may have reached a tipping point, and now the thing that keeps copyright intact may be a strong personal sense of morality, which must be taught. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Thanks, BitShifter! I have to agree. Personally, I'm tired of these endless internet piracy debates but that's one of the few intelligent posts I've read. I usually try to stay out of it since most people go round and round with the same arguments. As for myself, I'm in the middle. I believe in supporting the industry but at the same time, i don't mind the use of fansubs and scans. So long as one doesn't go overboard with it and actually goes out and buys stuff whenever possible. |
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Haterater
 Posts: 1727 |
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I think that's the problem for the anime industry and others that operate the same. Most sales come from DVDs and such, not ads from TV and other avenues. But that is changing, thanks to streaming and other places. But some fans still just want to watch it the "illegal" way and not help to support that company. If a choice between free, legal streaming and the usual fansub, the easiest way to support the industry would be the streaming, but some fans don't do that. That is my concern.
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Cheesecracker
 Posts: 240 |
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You suggested that legal borrowing could be somehow immoral. How does that even work? Opportunity or the access point doesn't turn us into pirates, it isn't even the point. Our willingness to engage in those actions is what makes us pirates. Of course libraries enabled people to pirate. There were always pirates. Historically the the means to access and duplicate was never so widespread, precise and (I think the main point) in the hands of children. Duplication technology had until relatively recently been the domain of adults. Even as it trended younger, before the internet, the ratio of legal copies to illegal duplications was limited and vague. It always happened, just not to the scale where it has reached now and in a way that can be observed. There was no log file for a cassette deck.Now literally one copy can serve the entire world and can be tracked. Any system can withstand some toxins, up to a point. The question is more along the lines of awareness, actions, consequences and personal responsibility. Do kids growing up now have any idea what the scope of their actions are and do they care? Would they care if they knew they could be sawing off the branch that they are sitting on or one someone else is sitting on? Of course some people will never care. The real discussion meets in the middle somewhere. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Dude, that was licensed. So has lots & lots of really worthy stuff. Forget the yaoi tag, if you can get your hands on any of the limited (2? 3?) Est Em titles that made it to these shores, get them. They aren't explicit, but they are thought-provoking, even disturbing at times. Which touches on the yaoi comment. Where the hell are you buying your manga? My Finder (It was Finder, wasn't it? I recognize the bondage & toys) came shrink-wrapped in the mail so I assume it was delivered to the store wrapped. Back when I did buy at brick-&-mortar, I would find mature titles left in the kids' section-Berserk, & the like, not necessarily yaoi. People are jerks. What can one say? However, the point of yaoi isn't gay porn. If you've actually gotten your hands on some actual hentai you'd see the difference. Yaoi is about romance. The sex is just thrown in like gratuitous sex scenes in movies. Do you NEED a gal in a bikini washing a car in a burger commercial? No. Does it make guys look? Yes. Finder, if you read the author notes, was an assignment to run in a bondage-themed issue, but it was popular enough to continue. Frankly, the whole mafia story is way more interesting than the sex. I don't think there are too many more vengeful "woman scorned" than Fei Long. Plus Yamane's art is lovely. Is there a lot of so-so yaoi? Look at all the so-so shojo we get. Yaoi is a branch of shojo so yeah, there's a lot of treading water/stories ground out to fill pages/pay the rent. John Lennon spoke of that-songs he wrote to fill out the album he wasn't all that proud of because they were a number rather than inspiration. Yaoi very much can fall into a pattern just like any other genre can & usually does. I can't count the times I've started a title that looked interesting only for the author to swiftly settle for the easy plot. Servicable, but not outstanding exists in pretty much all art. God knows I have 3 trunks full of US comics I wouldn't call art, but I enjoyed the stories. But the thing is--my idea of so-so just might be someone else's idea of a great story. Back round to the Gankutsuou bit-it really depends on what you're looking for. Hetalia is interesting, has some historical info for all but the most die-hard history buff, & is very sweet at its core. Is it GREAT ART? No, but it is worthy. I think adults could enjoy it as easily as they seem to devour American Idol or Dancing With the Stars. I feel Black Butler (manga-haven't seen the anime yet)is a good mystery series which could interest some adult mystery fans. Zetsubo-Sensei (manga) is another series I find very enjoyable, but I also discovered Doonsbury back in the 70's along with Editorial cartoons so I like political/social commentary humor. Demon Prince Enma was sufficiently spooky as are the final eps of Ayakashi that make up the Goblin Cat story. Baccano. Azumanga Daioh (manga) is like Peanuts-a title adults can enjoy. |
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dizzon
 Posts: 338 |
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Yep, kids these days would likely fail to comprehend that they watch for free on tv because the copyright holder granted such permission by way of monetary compensation, and that watching online for free, depending on the site, could be different depending on that same factor. And as far as the library goes...that one's tricky. It might be much more difficult to explain the fair use doctrine (http://library.case.edu/copyright/fairuse.html) and that a library can and has been sued for copyright infringement before and that just because you got something from the library that doesn't definitively make it ok. But I wouldn't expect kids to understand that one because many libraries can't even follow it. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Aside from my general discomfort at the inevitable soapboxing that seems to ride along with any mention of the term, my only real criticism is that I often encounter people who say something to the effect of "x is not art, y is; therefore, x has no value". I am familiar with the diversity of definitions that accompany the word, but just because something is not art in the sense that it is a monolithic masterpiece that will endure the sands of time doesn't mean it cannot be appreciated. Experiencing art is an active process, not a passive one; you can't just expect everything to seize control of your senses. Naturally, upon examination one might find little redeeming quality in a manga or what have you. It's fine not to like a manga; maybe the subject matter of hardcore gay porn doesn't appeal to you. It was a good story. I happen to think it's hilarious. But at the same time, attacking it on the grounds of it's failure to enlighten the medium seems pompous and isn't convincing. |
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einhorn303
 Posts: 1180 |
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I think the thing that's confusing Sunday Silence is the fact that incest and rape aren't mutually exclusive. As in, an act can be both incest and rape at the same time (non-consensual sex between biologically related individuals), or only either one. In the same way that science fiction and comedy are different genres, but some things can be both at the same time (like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy). |
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jyuichi
 Posts: 125 |
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Reading this long discussion on libraries raising pirates (or whatever) reminded me of an article by an actual librarian.
Why Reading Manga at a Library is Not the Same as Scanlations Its about manga but I think the idea holds true for anime as well. I don't intend on arguing this here but the key difference in my opinion is the simultaneity of piracy. |
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Maryohki
 Posts: 526 |
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Re; the yaoi question I am REALLY not liking how the person who wrote in is assuming that the only porn female manga readers are into is yaoi and that only men want hentai.
 As a girl who likes all of the above but whose preferences lie with hentai and yuri, I feel rather slighted by the way that question was worded, especially the last paragraph or two.
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YotaruVegeta
 Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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Primarily, though, female readers and watchers heart yaoi. I would bet they enjoy it more than they enjoy hentai.
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Maryohki
Posts: 526 |
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It's still a generalization on sexuality that I'm not okay with. |
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