Forum - View topicElfen Lied ending (SPOILERS).
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Mistress9
Exempt from Grammar Rules
 Posts: 226 |
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Kin7cato I agree with you mostly, especially bout the Nana stuff. However,and this is for everyone... spoiler[ I don't think it didn't add up, sure the whole thing bout the ending, about how and why she fixed the clock. (Because I think she fixed the clock) doesn't really add up per say. But the overall story does sort have a general direction and makes sense. It didn't make my head hurt like say Evagelion does. However, I do agree there are plot holes through out all of Elfen Lied, little side stories that could be cleared up, and hello how does the ending not scream squeal? It is the classic horror movie ending. I just don't get why or how, #1 Lucy could still be alive after having both her horns shot off? Wouldn't that consitute death? Someone on another board who read the Manga said that if a dilosicoan had their horns shot off they were deadmeat. So going by this (and Once again I have not read the manga this is stuff I heard)how could Lucy survive. and #2 Who was it that surviorved, was it the Lucy personality or the Nyu personality? Were they mended again? Also How she could be able to fix that clock, with like Kn7cato said no prior knowldege of doing so, and without being seen without using her vectors. Since once again there is the whole 2 meter thing and without Nana senseing her. True Nana didn't always sense her, but that was when the Nyu personality (which I believe is the orginal good side of Lucy, just with amaenisa (sp?))So what does this mean, that without the horns Lucy did not exist and it was Nyu that Kyoto saw? Very well that could believeable, but then why didn't Nyu go inside? Also how was she able to use her vectors over more then a 2 meter reach and fix a clock she could never fix? Just too many unanswered questions. I think either another season that not only answers these questions but also goes more into the plot holes off the orginal story is needed, or at least another movie. I just dont' see how all this stuff was answered and like I said, the ending just screamed squeal.]
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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OK you guys are having a spirted discussion which I will not get into, simply because I don't feel like doing a whole lot of typing. But I have one problem thats not a biggie I would like to point out.
I for one went into this one knowing and believing I was going to watch a scifi anime. Most of the people I know and converse with also had the same take. The fact you use the word "if" bothers me. From the very opening scenes it is clear. spoiler[People being ripped apart for no apparent reason by a naked women with a blinder on, in some sort of militarized science laboratory.] A scientific fiction genre clearly pops into my head. I guess I am tired of the only thing being considered scifi is running around in spaceship scoring with catgirls trying not to be caught by the galactic police for fraternization with a different species. As for your other dabalings(which I won't go into), I have one question for both of you. Did you find it entertaining or a waste of time because of these "holes"? |
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Kin7cato
Posts: 99 |
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I rated the show Very Good. And I personally found the show to be quite entertaining (one of the more entertaining animes out there). Emotional powerful and stunning for a very short while, after the first time seeing the anime series. After multiple viewings and a closer analytical view of the series, no not really. A very shallow series, of course not but neither is it extraordinarly deep. Elfen Lied is a good series overall, entertaining and interesting. The Plot holes flaws and contradicitons did not completely ruin or destroy the anime series. ( It also didn't make the series stronger either.) However this anime series should not be categorized or put into the Best Anime series or Best anime of all time status. Because it literally is not the Best Anime Masterpiece Ever! Like I've heard multiple people say over and over again. |
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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heh, wow, I never paid much heed to that clack scene.
spoiler[the only question that I wanted answered and felt let down when it wasn't is why didn't Lucy ever attack chief Kurama? She killed everyone around him, but never him, he even backhands her at one point but she never attackshim, why?] As for the clock thing, I'm pressed on time right now, so I'll post what I think later. |
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Hisdon
 Posts: 411 Location: Poquoson, VA |
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spoiler[ cause if he's dead she can't ruin his life, the ova tells how she was captured, she was a with a humen girl, and they thought the humen girl was her, so they shot the humen girl, then captured her. Lucy made them promise to save the girl (she wasn't dead yet, just bleeding badly) if they took her in. A few days later, the girl died, Kurama told her this, and Lucy said she vowed to destroy everything he ever cared for. This is why she killed the secretary in the first episode also, Karuma liked having her around the place. It's also why he's always looking at those pictures of Nana and the secretary after Lucy dismembers Nana, can't really mention the one of his wife, cause Lucy didn't kill her. ] |
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the Rancorous
Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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you know, I was starting to think that was the case. spoiler[I first thought Lucy just killed randomly until her fight with Nana when she threw Mayu out of the way, not killing her. And I did notice that Lucy wasn't doing anything to the secretary until she saw Kurama's concern for her safety.] But thanks, cause I doubt I would have ever gotten my hands on the OAV.
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Bubblegum19e
 Posts: 25 |
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Remember though, it's all opinions. One mans trash is another mans treasure, so to speak. Were all entitled to our personal opinions. |
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Kin7cato
Posts: 99 |
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Not everything is opinions. There are legitimate points such as flaws and contradictions within stories. They are real regardless of any opinion. Even though people ignore or deny them they actually exist. |
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Mistress9
Exempt from Grammar Rules
Posts: 226 |
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I personally love Elfen Lied it is one of my favorite animes becuase it is so missed up, however I am not one to sit there and go nope not one plot hole, this show is riddled with them, and it is a shame since it's story is what holds me and keeps me comming back it is very awsome. spoiler[ But I wanted to learn/no more bout Lucy after they gun her down(shot her other horn off) and the before the clock scence. Like others have pointed her out it appears that some time has prograssed between these two scences.] Yet still even with these missing information and all the other missing information/plot holes I and others mentoined in earlier posts, this show is still awsome!!
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the Rancorous
Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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I agree. Elfen Lied may have plot holes, but it is definitely far above average. Personally, I'm a huge character person; in otherwords, I respect good characterization over complex/thought-provoking plot. Elfen Lied has awsome characters! Each character (not just the main ones) has multiple layers that made me really feel them as people. Even the split personalities of lucy/Nyu had multiple layers. I felt/understood each character and the only characters I could hate was the director and his son. Even spoiler[Mirako, the scariest little kid character I've seen in anime, got to my feelings.] Now, if the plot holes were huge, which I feel that they weren't that big, then I would think less of it. but the characters themselves were so diverse and layered that they captivated me 100%. But all-in-all, I'll still have to agree that this series has its flaws, but i felt it was still AT LEAST worthy of an "excellent" rating.
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Kin7cato
Posts: 99 |
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When it comes to character depth versus plot depth I completely agree with you. Character depth is far more important than a complex and deep plot. However having a plot that is logical is still important even if the plot isn't incredible. Elfen Lied has some really great characters, but I disagree with you when you said Each character (not just the main ones) has multiple layers that made me really feel them as people. I have never seen one anime series were each and every character possesed multiple layers of depth and personality. Maybe I am taking this a little out of context but you were talking about each and every character in the series regardless of how long they appear, right? If so your saying characters that appeared on the screen for five seconds or less had multiple layers of depth and personality. Making them seem absolutely real or believable. You can't expect me to take you seriously. Because that is just not true. spoiler[One character that lacked multiple layers of depth and personality is Bando. Bando is simply a stereotypical militaristic psychopath. What does Bando enjoy doing? Hhmm lets see hurting and killing people. Why? umm Because he is a psychopath. Why is he after Lucy? Because she destroyed his body parts and he is pissed off. Bando's motivation: I am going to kill Lucy because of what she did to me. This is very simple. Bando's other values, if someone does him a favor he A.) hurts them (like the doctor after his operation) punching him in the face. Or B.) Gets really angry and digusted starts cursing and then decides to pay back his debt not out of guilt or actual honor but out of pride and his independence. And then in the process he what? Hurts them. A perfect example of this is with Mayu. Once he hears about Lucy he forgets about the debt and starts to beat and interrogate her. until she reminds him of the debt and then he lets her go after bullying her and stepping on her head. And finally C.) The only situation where Bando does not act violently and decides to pay back the debt is when he owes to Kurama. Because he benefits from this by the fact that he gets to hunt Lucy down. And do what commit violence. Bando simply does not have multiple layers. He is rather a two(make that one and a half) dimensional character. The story doesn't even hint at where his violent behavior comes from. Why he is the way he is. And nothing about his past is explained. He also is not an interesting character either. No wonder they didn't go into detail about him. This is just another reaon why he isn't a multi layered character. What is Bando? Nothing more than a walking psychopath who is supposed to be really tough. They might as well have thrown in Jason to replace Bando. All Jason needs is a gun and a few instances where he doesn't massacre main characters such as Mayu and Kurama. The ability to lose. And to make his only goal in life to kill Lucy. And everything is practically the same. Simply put Bando doesn't bring anything valuable to the table. He is just a disgruntled cybernetic stereotypical militaristic psychopath that wants to kill Lucy. Bando's entire purpose is specifically for the plot. As a standalone character he would be very dull. Bando is not multi layered and he is not deep either. And he is also not a realistic or believable character.] He is just one of the characters that is not multi layered. To be 100% captivated by all the characters in Elfen Lied with the exception of the two you mentioned means that your a fairly easy target. |
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joel_s95387
Posts: 1804 Location: California... The Village Hidden In The Porn |
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The event took place in the "extra" episode that has yet to be, and probably never will, licenced in the US. It's the story of how Lucy ended up being captured and sent to the facility of the opening sequence. I thought it was because while Lucy and spoiler[the other girl, mainly Lucy, were fighting off Kurama and his army, one guy snuck up and shot Lucy's friend. Then Kurama and Lucy made a deal that if Kurama did everything in his power to save the little girl, Lucy would turn herself in and allow herself to undergo "testing". Back at the lab when Kurama broke the news to Lucy that he did all he could but the girl still died, Lucy vowed to never kill him because he had kept his word on doing all he could to save her friend, even though she still died.] Again this is what I was told by friends who've downloaded the subbed version. I've yet to see it myself. Does anyone know which version is true, or closest to the truth because I don't remember all the details I was told so I might have missed a couple of important scenes. |
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Gauss
 Posts: 519 Location: Finland |
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I did look closely, and she remains still long enough to show that she's not jumping. So in other words... why bother? Nice use of the poisoned well fallacy. Any explanation I bring forward is suspect because I "must be incredibly desperate to defend this anime series". Then a nice segue into a classic ad hominen fallacy with words like:
You are being extremely rude by claiming I'm something that I'm not, and then adding insult to injury by pooh-poohing my arguments based on that fantasy. Out of the 200 anime shows and movies I've seen in full or in part I would only count three as masterpieces. So when at another point you claim "It is very obvious that I have much higher standard than you do" you are spouting arrant nonsense. So far you have claimed that Elfen Lied is full of plot holes, has too many contradictions and flaws to be called logical, does not abide by its own structure, that it's story-telling is lacking and the execution sucks. How on earth could you have ever enjoyed Elfen Lied if it gets so many basic things wrong? I'm fully aware the show is not perfect but also that the flaws are nowhere near as grave as you so forcefully assert. The only example you have brought forward in support of the above claims is a minor issue. That there might be a contradiction in Nana's use of powers does not mean the final scene was ruined or that it was a violation of the structure of the show. As an ending scene it works very well from a story-telling perspective. It contains symbolism (a new start), is in character (her need to make amends) and offers hope (alive?) that is tempered by sorrow (walks away). It's also ambiguous enough to leave the door open for a sequel. |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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OK there has been many things said here so I will only focus on one point. The person who started this post said:
Now the symbol of return is what I find interesting. Many movies and tv shows(I am talking all movies and tv shows) use symbolic devices. They don't have a rational explanation. A clock tolls, a bell sounds, a star falls, a jewel starts glowing, it can be many things. spoiler[Nyuu was meassing with that clock constantly, she was fascinated with it, but it never worked, she never quite figured it out. So I believe when she returned it was a symbol of the house being complete, in a dramatic sense. Not like she had 100 foot vectors or anything, it was just a prop used for dramatic effect.] Now as for:
Some people are natural gearheads, I know one myself. It is not that uncommon really. They can just figure things out. To me the argument that you need some kind of training to fix something is ridiculus, and goes against many things I believe in. In fact on clocks, big ones, it could be something simple. Like something becoming jammed in the gears, once removed, and it works again. Just some thoughts... |
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the Rancorous
Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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Obviously I didn't mean the ones like Kisaragi or others that were just there for a scene or two and then got killed or just left, etc. I meant the ones that stuck around for at least a few episodes. As for Bando, I agree with you for the most part,spoiler[ but I honestly didn't expect him to let mayu go. I mean, he could have beat and killed her right there on the beach and no one would ever know that he went back on his word, that's what I thought was the type of person Bando was. But then he leaves her alone when she throws his own words in his face. I felt that this was more a type of honor rather than pride. I'd agree that it was pride if other people would know what he did.] But, for the most part I agree with you about him.
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