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INTEREST: Yoshiyuki Tomino Admits Story Problems in Gundam Reconguista


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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 2232
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:05 pm Reply with quote
SilverTalon01 wrote:

While I personally would agree with you, that is definitely not true. Destiny was a huge hit. While 00 didn't do as well and I don't know about S2 specifically, on the whole it was very well received. AGE and now this are the only ones you mentioned that finished weak.


Uh, yeah, Destiny did well commercially at the time...critically, not so much and time has not been kind to it. The writing became a complete mess in the second and third acts due to the lead writer unfortunately having serious health issues (both physical and emotional) thus leading to a decline in quality. Which is why we haven't seen any followups or interest in the C.E. timeline for awhile now such as a planned finale movie which has been reduced to a dream. Same thing with 00's AD timeline. They might have done fine at the time, but they're not exactly remembered with anything more than a shrug nowadays.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2404
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:07 pm Reply with quote
Angel'sArcanum wrote:
You're kidding right? Badly written stuff sells well all the time, there's no absolute correlation between quality of writing and sales. Ever heard of a little thing called 50 Shades of Grey?


That is subjective. Some people think it is bad and others don't. Just because some people think a work is badly written does not make that an absolute fact. If people really thought something was trash, it wouldn't get a massive amount of praise.

Angel'sArcanum wrote:
As for writing quality, when the previous person said "the best" it was more of an expression or generalization, and he wasn't outright saying anything in particular was THE BEST of anything, so you don't have to waste your breath giving the whole 'subjectivity/semantics' regurgitated spiel; 9 times out of 10 you don't need to remind people about that, people should know full and well opinion is opinion and outsiders shouldn't take it in as anything more.


I didn't take it to mean literally the best, and didn't respond to it that way. If I had, I would have actually agreed with him because in terms of reception, Destiny loses to a couple of the older works.

AiddonValentine wrote:
Uh, yeah, Destiny did well commercially at the time...critically, not so much and time has not been kind to it. The writing became a complete mess in the second and third acts due to the lead writer unfortunately having serious health issues (both physical and emotional) thus leading to a decline in quality. Which is why we haven't seen any followups or interest in the C.E. timeline for awhile now such as a planned finale movie which has been reduced to a dream. Same thing with 00's AD timeline. They might have done fine at the time, but they're not exactly remembered with anything more than a shrug nowadays.


Because the opinion of one person is more correct than the opinion of another if they are a critic? What a load of crap.

Also it wasn't an 'at the time' thing. Destiny had enough lasting appeal for them to make the HD version years later which unlike most HD versions actually had parts redone. Destiny also consistently ranks in the top 10 favorite gundam anime on polls.

Personally, I also think it is bad and agree about it being a huge mess. However, there are legions of fans who think it is great so that is not an objective fact.
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Angel'sArcanum



Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 303
Location: Toronto, Ontario
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:18 pm Reply with quote
Aaaaand it was totally ignored. Ah well, I tried.
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Kurohei



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 597
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Tomino is a pretty tough critic. Sure Reconguista was a bumpy road, but at lease it wasn't Age or Victory. My biggest problem was the story was hard to follow and some plot twists were pretty lame. spoiler[I could have gone without the incest romance, and kinda pretend it never happened.] Well at lease we got some awesome mech designs out of it.
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:53 pm Reply with quote
Well now I'm really glad I dropped it around epi 5 or 6 (the one where a single pilot almost capture the capital with a regular mech).

But did he really say:

Quote:
Fundamentally, people don't respond to stories made with cold logic. If the logic is overpowering, it won't be a story you can be emotionally attached to.


or was that just mistranslated? Cause as far as the first few episode I've watched goes, there was no logic in it, none at all. Character where just doing random stuff, you'd probably get that kind of story by putting random character name and event in an hat and picking them at random. I will say, it looked awfully pretty (although I thought the mech themselves were average to very ugly looking).
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:23 pm Reply with quote
Crow Bro wrote:
^Not surprising that you dropped it after 5 episodes with that way of thinking

Could you refrain from being snooty about anyone "not understanding Tomino's brilliance" as when making such snide remarks you are not making a case for the work.

It is a disservice both to the work being mention as well as anyone participating in the conversation.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:30 pm Reply with quote
I think that it is good that Tomino admitted to his mistakes, but then there is this:

Quote:
Tomino acknowledges that anime is supposed to be "happier" than what he produced, but claimed he couldn't bring himself to make something like that. "I fundamentally have frustration with these types of works, and I realize that I spewed it out too much."


Maybe I'm confused as to where he is getting this idea. Series like Attack on Titan are far from "happy". "Morbid" would be a better term to describe that show, and yet it was a big hit. IMO, Tomino needs to figure out that the mood of the show does not create an automatic success, nor does it tighten up the writing for the script. Seems to me like he is misplacing the blame for the sloppy writing.
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:23 pm Reply with quote
Crow Bro wrote:

You mean a series that exist solely on pandering is doing well regardless of the actual quality of the writing since the demo don't care unless they get their instant gratification? Who would have thought? Rolling Eyes


Or, y'know, it's done well because it's not prone to sloppy writing, lack of direction, and actually knows what it is. That's why Build Fighters is so intriguing to examine within the franchise; it is, admittedly, a blatant toy commercial. And yet, somehow, it actually garnered a fanbase who cared for more than just bright, flashy lights and it's plethora of references to the history of Gundam. They actually got invested in the characters, in the world, and the plot. On paper, it shouldn't work. But it did, enough to get a second season, OVAs, and probably a third season if Try was anything to go by. Probably because the creative knew what they were doing and realized it didn't need to just be a toy commercial so they took it seriously. Funny how things like that turn out.

meiam wrote:

or was that just mistranslated? Cause as far as the first few episode I've watched goes, there was no logic in it, none at all. Character where just doing random stuff, you'd probably get that kind of story by putting random character name and event in an hat and picking them at random. I will say, it looked awfully pretty (although I thought the mech themselves were average to very ugly looking).


That is the thing about writing: people like to go on about the artistic "spark" but I've learned over the years that the spark is the last thing that makes success. Logic is ultimately needed in order to keep the spark organized and keep focused.
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Kaioshin_Sama



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:51 pm Reply with quote
Dear ANN, please stop re-printing Yaraon click bait articles and blatantly encouraging bashing of the Gundam franchise as a result. As a fan it's really not appreciated at all.

I respect that Tomino has the capacity to self-criticize but unfortunately it's not going to have the intended effect and just result in people dog-piling all the more cause that's what they do when they smell blood and if there's anything people absolutely love to constantly criticize and never say anything remotely positive about it's Gundam.

Constant negativity and hyper-criticism of every little thing from the fanbase without even the slightest hint that a positive reception of any aspect is even on the table as an option is the steepest obstacle Gundam faces as a franchise these days and there's really little it can do about it other than keep trying and hope another Gundam Build Fighters happens sometime in the future where people decide not to be unpleasable hyper critical ass hats who blow every flaw out of proportion for a change and spend the entire series discussing the things they don't like about it. There is little that can convince me otherwise.

Tomino is a far bigger man than the kind of people that just sit back and take potshots against the franchise he created all day every day though and people can respond to this with whatever excuse or spin they want but I promise I legitimately do not give a solitary f**k what they have to say.

Crow Bro wrote:

There was literally nothing entertaining about A/Z. It was just a wreck that never salvaged itself leading into an unsatisfying conclusion, despite the "high stakes" action in drama in it I was literally bored to tears probably because every aspect about it had been done better in other shows. It was a weird experience watching G-Reco and A/Z alongside one another because you saw the difference between a show being pushed by an individual because he actually gave a shit and a show being pushed by management going by a checklist of everything popular.


So I'm not the only one that noticed this pretty obvious contrast. A/Z was pretty soulless for pretty much all of those reasons. At least G-Reco seems a fair bit more successful than it was still if not up to the caliber of stuff like 00, Seed and really every other recent Gundam series aside from Age.


Last edited by Kaioshin_Sama on Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Brutannica



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 257
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:07 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:

But did he really say:

Quote:
Fundamentally, people don't respond to stories made with cold logic. If the logic is overpowering, it won't be a story you can be emotionally attached to.


or was that just mistranslated?


In the first sentence he used the word "rizume" (理詰め), while in the second sentence he used the word "ri" (理). They both mean something like "logic," "reason" or "principle." I felt "logic" fit best in this context. He may have been referring to his own thinking while writing the story rather than the character's specific motivations.
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antasad



Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:41 pm Reply with quote
No worries, Tomino-san. Just atone your mistakes through the Compilation Movie. Just do what you did with A New Translation.
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bahamut623



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1463
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:06 am Reply with quote
I've been watching it as they post it on Youtube (still do not understand why Bandai chooses to limit the franchise so badly), and it's entertaining so far. It's surprising to see him criticize it so soon after the series finished. It doesn't seem monstrously bad (so far, at least), compared to something like Captain Earth, which was immensely boring. G-Reco is at least fun, though flawed.

There are some moments and character interactions that are kind of confusing. For instance, the series of events that led up to Bell and co. ending up with the pirates made NO sense whatsoever. He and Aida just kind of casually strolled to the G-Self and she steals it without much (or any) opposition from Bellri. Also, Capital Guard/Capital Army are really hard to keep straight. They couldn't have come up with more distinct names?

Flaws aside, I love the aesthetic of the show, both in the character designs and the robots. The animation is pleasant, but it certainly doesn't feel modern. It's charming in its own way.

If I were to sum up the plot up to now (ep. 9), all I could probably tell you is..."they move around from place to place and keep getting attacked." If nothing else, it's the type of show I'm just watching for the robot action, of which there is a fair amount.


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DangerMouse



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 3984
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:10 am Reply with quote
H. Guderian wrote:
While I can safely say 00 was not greatly written, I loooved the final gauntlet of fights near the end of the second season. All those episodes had me quite satisfied.


Yeah those were great. Actually I thought the first season had really good writing and even though the second season had a few too many ruts where little progress was made in the story (there were a few too many attack->retreats that didn't go anywhere IMO) I also still really enjoyed the second season, and yeah those last fights were excellent. Plus, the atmosphere of the last sets of episodes with the final battles in them in both seasons to me was incredible.

Admittedly 00 became one of my favorite Gundams. It really got me back to being excited for each new Gundam like I was for each of Wing, X, and G, along with the recent Unicorn.

SilverTalon01 wrote:
Also it wasn't an 'at the time' thing. Destiny had enough lasting appeal for them to make the HD version years later which unlike most HD versions actually had parts redone. Destiny also consistently ranks in the top 10 favorite gundam anime on polls.


Was going to say this as well about both Seed and 00. They weren't just an "at the time" thing, even as someone who only kind of liked Seed and it wasn't one of my favorites, both shows are still heavily remembered and like you said the (actually both) Seed series got HD remaster blu-rays even years after the show is over. 00 would likely also be getting an HD remaster as well, except there's no need since it was originally made in HD so it was already there being the first Gundam tv show made in HD and was already released on blu-ray. Both of these shows are still highly remembered.

bahamut623 wrote:
There are some moments and character interactions that are kind of confusing. For instance, the series of events that led up to Bell and co. ending up with the pirates made NO sense whatsoever. He and Aida just kind of casually strolled to the G-Self and she steals it without much (or any) opposition from Bellri.

Flaws aside, I love the aesthetic of the show, both in the character designs and the robots. The animation is pleasant, but it certainly doesn't feel modern. It's charming in its own way.


Yeah, I think that hurt it too, it was too messy in beginning to really grip and hook, it was enjoyable for the animation and the designs but the story and characters over the first section were unnecessarily convoluted/busy/random and the weightiness of certain happenings felt confusing (some things felt heavier than expected while others had characters respond to things lighter than expected), especially until they got to the Megafauna.

Also, I'm not sure it was such a great choice starting the entire series kind of mid-scene like they did in episode 1. As one reviewer I remember reading noted, it was like they started the series from the return of a mid-episode commercial break. Not even a wideshot of the setting to establish where in space we were starting.

Yeah, I love Kenichi Yoshida's art and the animators really did a good job, I'm going to finish watching the rest of the series especially for his art. I agree, it was charming in its own way and felt nicely lively (like his designs usually do to me).


Last edited by DangerMouse on Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:12 am; edited 5 times in total
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:12 am Reply with quote
antasad wrote:
No worries, Tomino-san. Just atone your mistakes through the Compilation Movie. Just do what you did with A New Translation.


You mean butcher a classic?
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CoreSignal



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 727
Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:42 am Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:
meiam wrote:

or was that just mistranslated? Cause as far as the first few episode I've watched goes, there was no logic in it, none at all. Character where just doing random stuff, you'd probably get that kind of story by putting random character name and event in an hat and picking them at random. I will say, it looked awfully pretty (although I thought the mech themselves were average to very ugly looking).


That is the thing about writing: people like to go on about the artistic "spark" but I've learned over the years that the spark is the last thing that makes success.Logic is ultimately needed in order to keep the spark organized and keep focused.

These have always been my main issues with Tomino as a writer. It honestly feels like his characters are doing random stuff half the time. It's too bad, since Tomino is a great universe builder. While I totally respect him for being critical of himself, I wonder if having an assistant writer or director would help out. For someone with a ton of ideas like Tomino, it might be good to have somebody to bounce ideas off of or to help him sift out stuff. So, for GITS: Stand Alone Complex the director/main writer got together with the other 4 or 5 writers on the show and they actually had a week-long retreat to hammer out all the characters and story points and together. Then again, Tomino seems like he's one of the few, remaining anime creators that still does everything, like writing, directing, storyboards, etc.
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