Forum - View topic

Maria the Virgin Witch (TV).

How can that be backtracking when I wrote that in my initial refutation of your argument?

Look there IS a difference between virginity and celibacy. Celibacy =/= purity. Virginity = purity. The Church does not demand celibacy of its priests because they believe it holds power for men, or because male virginity has any intrinsic value at all, but because it demonstrates devotion to and focus on God. And priests aren't supposed to be looking for power or status, they're supposed to be humble and depend on God's power. So the idea that they think virginity in men bestows power and that's something to strive for makes no sense, and isn't supported by anything I've seen the Church do or say, ever.

I was also looking at how both the Church and the society of this setting view women and power, because the series is examining both (and this is why I disagree with your take on the purpose of Michael's ultimatum in regards to the narrative). This isn't just about the Church. Now if you come back saying that the 15th century French valued male virginity in the same way they did female virginity, then there really is nothing more I can say.

This is an anime thread. We aren't talking about the manga. If anything, you are just arguing that the manga handles the issue better than the show by not introducing the over-the-top villain of Galfa. The fact remains that the anime really only uses the Michael's restriction to set up the rape and the primary conflict between Joseph and Galfa over Maria's sexual purity.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

How can that be backtracking when I wrote that in my initial refutation of your argument?

You are backtracking because you equated celibacy with purity, and now you are trying to retract that. You equated them in the first place because it makes sense.

This is simple. I was right. Priests are required to be celibate for a reason. The Church believes that there is some kind of "purity" power in that. You can call it whatever kind of power you want to. They value it. They demand it. They proclaim that priests are "married to the Church," or God, or something. It is and has been doctrine throughout the Church for hundreds of years. To claim that the Church only values this abstention from sex for females is to make a totally false claim, plain and simple.

That's why I've only brought up the manga as indirect evidence, not as my main argument. Which, unfortunately, seems to have been either ignored or downplayed in your response to my post.

Frankly, it would also be quite questionable to preemptively assume the manga is necessarily handling things better or worse. Even I wasn't arguing this. My point was that the rest of the story, which both versions absolutely do continue to have in common, cannot simply be reduced to meaningless build up to the failed sexual assault at all.

Therefore, I will completely disagree with the claim that the primary conflict of this story is "Joseph versus Galfa over Maria's sexual purity..." The attempted rape is merely a single expression, as ugly as it is, of the second part of this conflict. Not remotely the main focus of the story seen in the anime so far.

Just as you have repeatedly said that fans of the show may fail to see its flaws, I think the exact opposite can also be said about some of those who are overly critical, perhaps to the point of missing the forest for the trees. Based on the larger context of the story, I think the scenes you consider to be superficial are in fact relevant to setting up this world and those who live in it.

I have no real interest in Akame ga Kill but I don't mind recognizing that maybe you're right in the sense those villains have a more explicit conflict. I can accept that as a positive, if it works for the purposes of that story. However, I don't think all villains need to have that though.

I can't "backtrack" in my initial argument, that's just not possible. Confused But please do quote where I equated them. You can't, because I never did. I think I mentioned chastity once, which I was thinking of as virginity, though I guess that word isn't limited to virgins. But every time I used the word purity or pure, it was a synonym for virginity, and I couldn't have been clearer about it. In the quote you highlighted, I was saying no one expected him to be a virgin. It may be the Church's ideal, but as I said before, the Church turned a blind eye to that sort of behavior in men as a practical matter (just look at the difference in how Galfa was treated vs the woman he slept with. She was "ruined," he was not, though they both committed the sin of fornication). The same is not true for women of that era.

Galfa too enjoys sex, but since he is male, he's not expected to be pure

The one criticism on this series - which Blood- has alluded to - that I will give fair due is that Maria really hasn't grown significantly as a character. She's still righteous to the point of arrogance, and shows little sign that this will change in the final episode, and this has bugged me a little. Frankly, it's a little surprising that the other witches have tolerated her as well as they do.

The Church doesn't use a term called "Purity". Chastity is a virtue for Church. Being chaste means either being a virgin or having unprotected sex in a marriage with your spouse of the other gender. Being unchaste is a sin. I haven't seen an official distinction between chastity and virginity in the Catechism and I don't expect to, because before marriage it's supposed to be one and the same anyway.

Worship of Virgin Mary was very strong in Middle Ages, so we can infer that virgins could be likened to Mary and thus were seen closer and dearer to God, while a married woman is also devoted to her husband and an unmarried non-virgin has committed the sin of fornication. The power might come from the virgin's closeness to God, but obviously that's not true about Maria, since she's already doing magic and is thus a grave sinner. I haven't read nearly enough on the subject though.

Would point out, CK, that people who write for this site who are normally very sensitive about the portrayal of attempted or actual rape in anime didn't have a problem with how it was handled here. In fact, Hope even directly opposed your stance on that in the episode review thread.

That should tell you something. Sure, it's your prerogative to see it however you want, but just maybe you're making a huge deal out of something that doesn't warrant it?

There has been a running theme in the series that female purity (virginity) = power, at least in the eyes of the Church and its contemporary social environment. The most powerful female figure in the Church is the Virgin Mary. The virgin warrior Joan of Arc is mentioned. Maria is a powerful witch, who is forced to choose between losing her purity and her magical power, i.e., loss of virginity = loss of power. The knight's fiancee lost what little power she had along with her virginity and was exiled, never to be heard from again.

On the other side of the coin, we have the other witches and Artemis (named for a virgin goddess) who all apparently enjoy their sexuality (and Priapos, who wants to), and of course all of them are anathema to the Church. Galfa too enjoys sex, but since he is male, he's not expected to be pure, [in context, as previously clarified twice, I'm using that word to mean virginal] and the Church isn't looking to excommunicate him for it. Joseph is pure [we know he's a virgin], but weak, and Priapos is literally emasculated [therefore a virgin], which suggests virginity is power only for women. Yes, rape is one way to take that power (and rape is more about power than sex), but as the series showed us, not the only way.

The Church has always had an uneasy relationship with sex, requiring even its male priests to remain celibate (although they can still come to the priesthood without their virginity)[note that I'm making a distinction between celibacy and virginity, since you can choose to become celibate, but you can't choose be be a virgin again], because sex is sinful and takes your mind off God. Yet the Church needs new little Catholics, so sex within marriage is grudgingly sanctioned...as long as you don't have sex for fun. It has to be for making babies.

Given that Mary's virginal status has almost no meaning outside of that, it is ridiculous in my mind for people to just speculate that that quality of her creates a worldwide doctrine of female virginal power among Christians, without any real evidence other than people in this forum speculating about it.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion, as long as you refrain from misrepresenting what I've said by taking it out of context or ignoring the parts that don't fit your agenda.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church comments: "From the very beginning of the Church there were men and women who set out to follow Christ with greater liberty, and to imitate him more closely, by practising the evangelical counsels. They led lives dedicated to God, each in his own way. Many of them, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, became hermits or founded religious families. These the Church, by virtue of her authority, gladly accepted and approved."

Consecrated life may be lived either in institutes or individually. While those living it are either clergy (if ordained) or lay people, the state of consecrated life is neither clerical nor lay by nature.

[I apparently confused the term immaculate conception with the virgin birth of Jesus. Though immaculate conception is related to Jesus' birth, it is not a direct reference to it. See, I can admit when I'm wrong. It'd be nice if other people could too ]

If you want to say that you didn't present your original argument with careful context the first time, you can say that. I based my arguments on what you actually said, not on what you now claim you wanted to mean.

Anyway, the point has already been made numerous times that even female virginity is not some vital concept in the Church teachings. Female virginity has no real difference from male virginity when it comes to the Church, and they don't even talk about those things in any meaningful way. They talk about chastity or celibacy of unmarried men and women and priests/nuns. Like I said, you are simply wrong on that point, so you can claim you were taken out of context until the cows come home. You'll still be wrong.

There are mounds of scholarly work out there to prove that point. I have literally read whole books on this subject in my study of the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and Reformation periods. I can refer a title or two to you if you actually need proof on this.

And I'm about ready to cut off this line, too, but I'll give it one more chance to remain civil.

No. Just stop it, CK. Everybody but you can see that you're doing exactly what Gina claimed.

And since this point has become intractable, this line of discussion is now suspended.

Quote:

Anyway, the point has already been made numerous times that even female virginity is not some vital concept in the Church teachings. Female virginity has no real difference from male virginity when it comes to the Church, and they don't even talk about those things in any meaningful way. They talk about chastity or celibacy of unmarried men and women and priests/nuns. Like I said, you are simply wrong on that point, so you can claim you were taken out of context until the cows come home. You'll still be wrong.

When it comes to perception (which is what we've been talking about from the beginning), you are absolutely wrong, and there are mounds of scholarly work out there to prove that point. I have literally read whole books on this subject in my study of the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and Reformation periods. I can refer a title or two to you if you actually need proof on this.

And I'm about ready to cut off this line, too, but I'll give it one more chance to remain civil.