Forum - View topicNEWS: Toriyama: Became Disinterested in Fighting Manga During Dragon Ball
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rokudaimia
Posts: 1 |
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Your still attacking a woman who did nothing to you. You can prefer Schemmel's Goku if you want, but calling Nozawa a "Hag" is going too far |
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KabaKabaFruit
 Posts: 1878 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba |
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There is constructive criticism and then there is fanboy criticism. I don't mind constructive criticism provided that the critic can scrutinize the work while being open to all issues that went into the work. Fanboy criticism is more one-sided with the fanboy slamming a work without being open to all issues and reasons surrounding the work just so said fanboy can be Mr. Right. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2568 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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I'd be careful with saying that Dragon Ball "came up with" (i.e. "invented") many of the influential concepts (of shonen manga, I'm guessing) if I were you. That's not to say that DB didn't introduce any concepts, but a lot of people like to throw DB a little too much credit in terms of introducing a lot of shonen action's concepts, ideas, &, well, "tropes". If you want to be really technical, a lot of these concepts were brought about by Osamu Tezuka, but even from a "modern" perspective Dragon Ball simply relied on a lot of concepts that were already introduced by Shonen Jump titles that debuted before it. The simple-minded hero who loves to eat? Kinnikuman had that ever since 1979. Martial arts action? Technically, Dragon Ball was originally the Jackie Chan to the earlier Fist of the North Star's Bruce Lee. Hero & "villain" teaming up against a greater opposing force? Ring ni Kakero had that back in the late-70s/early-80s. Defeated rivals becoming friends? Hell, Astro Kyudan did that in the early-to-mid 70s! Going through hellish "special training" in a special location to become more powerful? Ring ni Kakero did that, too. Now, obviously, I'm sure other people can point out even earlier examples than what I listed, and Dragon Ball certainly introduced new stuff as well, but DB simply took what had been done before & refined them into its own form. |
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KabaKabaFruit
Posts: 1878 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba |
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I guess you can also argue that the Dragon Balls were influenced by the Golden Mask arc of Kinnikuman in a way. Some sci-fi nuts even want to compare the quest for finding the Dragon Balls to the classic Dr. Who serial, "The Keys of Marinus"
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Keiichi-chan
 Posts: 143 |
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an opinion as incorrect as it is disrespectful. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18238 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Just because you disagree with the opinion, Keiichi-chan, doesn't mean that it is incorrect. (And for the record, I happen to agree that either of the male performances I've heard for adult Goku is an improvement over the original female-voiced performance.)
Disrespectful? That I'll give you. |
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Anton Chigurh
 Posts: 257 Location: Guam |
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I’d last watched DBZ around 2001, and remembered liking the Buu saga the most. He was the more creative, interesting villain up to that point. Frieza destroyed planets and Cell… regenerated and had everyone’s cells? Buu combined the best bits from those with an ever joyful, creepy attitude toward killing. Add to that the fact that he turned people into candy that remained sentient as he ate it and he was THE man.
Then in 2011, I watched the whole series again. Well, not “whole.” I had to skip the parts with the Gotenks ghosts; that “comedy” made those episodes unwatchable. My conclusion: I was off. Buu itself was still a major creep with good hooks: unlike Frieza or Cell, he did not undergo transformations simply to gain power, but radical circumstances (sometimes comically so) forced these upon him. He also represented a return to a time when the Z Warriors would actually befriend downed major foes - IMO Number 18 doesn’t count. She screams at Krillin to shove his kindness up his ass and, cue next scene, they’re already parents. Unfortunately, an action-oriented story unable to cast the end of humanity and the destruction of planet Earth as a seismic storytelling shift also cannot do well by any one character, no matter what strengths the writer has given him. Much digital ink has gone into the saga’s haphazard plotting, the nonsensical bits, the lack of stakes – damn near everything bad that happened was wished away –but it stung the most that this was Toriyama’s plotting baby, through and through. His trademark penchant for silliness and comedy, when paired with scenes whose carnage and savagery dwarfed in scope whatever Frieza or Cell had done to entire planets, could craft unforgettable imagery (the bit with the candy above, for example), but it could also produce the worst kind of show-stopping gimmicks (the ghosts, in all their incantations). When taken as a whole, the saga clearly, schizophrenically cannot make the most of its approach to comedy or death. Toriyama seized full control of the beast he created and rode it until neither one wanted to keep going. DRAGON BALL Z did not end suddenly, it just cried uncle. Looking back, even if the legend is only that, Toriyama’s supposed plan to end DBZ with the Cell saga makes perfect sense. Son Gohan’s victory over Cell mirrors his introduction writ large: years after being abducted by his uncle and killing him – and saving everyone on Earth by proxy - with his innate power, and after undergoing hard training, he saves the day once again by vaporizing an abomination that combined, physically and mentally, the worst traits of both heroes and villains up to that point. Only this time, he wielded full control of this power and was anointed in no uncertain terms as Son Goku’s successor as defender of the Earth. His path as a warrior had a clear beginning and triumphant end, and it was not a stretch to say the narrative greatly improved by focusing on that. DBZ had attained hard-earned dramatic resonance. So of course, in the Buu saga, Gohan gets knee-capped every time he has an opportunity to shine. Every. Single. Time. |
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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I honestly felt DBZ was still Goku's story, and with that said, Cell Saga being my least favourite Saga is both attributed to the fact that Gohan takes precedence over Goku and that the saga was really stale in general. I honestly think there is a bit of thematic depth that can be extrapolated from the Buu Saga; yes it is the last hurrah for the series, and maybe Toriyama was tired it at this point, but it still felt very complete in execution. Goku acknowledged he couldn't defeat Buu without help (he's also getting kind of old, and it ties in with Uub) so rather than relying on his own strength, he asked for everyone else to give him a hand this time around as his last duty as the Earth (or universe's) guardian. Gohan is clearly not intended as his successor, I'm okay with him getting an education and becoming less of a hero, because Goku was already a bit social distant in a sense, and Chi-Chi didn't want their son to follow suit and to have him live like a normal kid. Now, Buu is kind of a mirror to Goku's growth stages (this part gets a bit wishy washy due to the transition from Super Buu to Kid Buu). He starts out as the naive and destructive child (Kid Goku & Fat Buu), grows into a somewhat more intelligent and rational being (Teen/Adult Goku & Super Buu) but after this is where the paths diverge; Goku continues to advance as an adult with his earnestness, sincerity and parenting abilities, meanwhile Buu regresses into a more primal, jaded "kid-like" creature more fearsome than Fat Buu--although ripping out Majin Buu to make Kid Buu threw me off-- which may be an allegory for a mid-life crisis(?) and getting uncomfortable with your life. Then Goku must take it upon himself to stop this ultimate evil he can see a bit of himself in, which could be further hinted in his line "you were probably my favourite opponent, I really hope I get to fight you again some time" yadda yadda. Then Uub comes along from poor social conditions but has no true material or selfish desires and only wants to protect his people, which matches Goku's selfless personality, and seeing how Buu is a bit of Goku's mirror and foil, and Uub is the true good reincarnation of Buu, Goku saw himself the most in Uub and decided to pass the torch to him because he was the most promising successor. That was probably my most poorly orchestrated argument for the Buu Saga, I've done much better but please take these two cents for what you will.
Now, if you want to see a REALLY obvious spike in quality and having authors throw in the towel for a series, the post-Raoh arcs of Fist of the North Star blatantly show Buronson & Hara being reluctant to continue the series. The Celestial Emperor arc is a crappy rehash of Thouzer's arc, the Kaioh arc is this really hackneyed crap that keeps adding pointless stuff to the lore, the Ryu arc I haven't read, but Bulge is just absolute pain and is through and through the authors saying "we are absolutely finished with this series, stop making us continue it" while giving the middle finger...it's bad. So yeah, sorry about my tangent lol. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Then you obviously don't grasp the concept of the character. For some reason, Son Goku, one of the simplest characters in fiction, is one of the most misunderstood characters in anime, at least to a North American audience. Funimation's version of the show is that ingrained. |
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Dunks
Posts: 11 |
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@Anton Chigurh
Gotenks was Toriyama's favourite part of the Arc...I remember him saying this was the first fight in a long time where he could do whatever he wanted. Clearly shows where his priorities were. Tbh I found Gohan just kinda lacking as a protagonist tough. Just a little too bland and expressionless. It worked as a one-time thing for Cell, but that's it. Last edited by Dunks on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Anton Chigurh
Posts: 257 Location: Guam |
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Therein lies the rub, eh? Toriyama was, after years, finally given the keys to the kingdom and the resulting story had Buu’s flatus triggering a critical plot point and the Earth being destroyed and nobody caring for it. It is kind of sad. All that stuff about Gohan and Cell is my interpretation. Toriyama was notorious for his lack of planning, so the fact that said fight manages to resonate for some when taken as part of a whole actually speaks well of his talent. |
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Nack 20
Posts: 3 |
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There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this forum.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/ There is no proof that he ever planned to end the series at any earlier point. Nor was he ever "forced" by his editors into anything he didn't want to do. That's just false rumors made by Americans (the rumors don't exist in Japan) based on their own personal biases and misinformation. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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And you clearly haven't grasped the concept of puberty. Goku should not sound the same at fifty as he does at fifteen and as he does at five. Just because he is mentally a manchild does not in any way mean he will physically sound like a child when he is a man. The fact that you cannot understand this simple point makes me wonder about your capacity for reasoning. Even a child could get such a simple concept. |
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Shadowrun20XX
 Posts: 1935 Location: Vegas |
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The US was one of the last places to get Dragonball Z. Dub fans seem to have a major superiority problem.
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