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I get a background check all the time. It's a part of my occupation. However, for a website forum, it would be a wee bit stringent.

Bluffton is a town of 2,000 resident. That's pretty small so it's taken for granted that this guy should have known about the library or had some sense to ask first. Not seeing the second flyer in a town of 2,000 is also suspicious. I live in a town of 3,000. There are only so many places that a flyer is going to be found.

He's also making a disturbance out of proportion to what actually happen so he definitely needs a background check.

When I was fifteen, I joined a newly-founded gaming club, the first real boardgame-and-RPG club in Denmark. At the time that I joined, we were about 15-20 people (I think, in fact, that my membership no. was 15). The membership ranged from 12-60 in age, and nobody ever gave a second thought to any issues of paedophilia or suchlike. We were all just fans, having fun together.

Over the next few years, the club grew to over 200 members, and the average age of the membership fell somewhat -- but the club maintained its atmosphere of live and let live.

I used to stay out late at age 15-16, gaming till all hours with friends two or three times my age. My parents never worried, and neither did I. And there was never, has never been in the history of the club, any problem of any sort. The worst thing that ever happened was a fist-fight over a betrayal in a game of Diplomacy. What can I say? It's a cut-throat game.

People these days are so eager to see ghosts. They see terrorists, paedophiles, whatever evil fancies haunt their subconscious minds. They ignore any sort of common sense -- and they are poisoning our public life with their hysteria.

As for the civil rights issue, it has been argued that maintaining a "safe environment" for children is so important that it justifies infringing on the liberties of an adult. I won't disagree with the underlying reasoning of this, because similar reasoning lies at the heart of all criminal law. A criminal must be kept away from ordinary citizens, for the protection of the law-abiding citizens. But where is there a reason to presume that all adults are predators? Was this man a convicted sex offender? Had he previously caused any form of disturbance?

The fact remains that he was treated rudely (I don't know this for certain, but I am concluding this on the basis of the circumstances, and I doubt anyone will disagree that this is the likeliest hypothesis) in a situation where he had done nothing wrong. He has every right to seek redress for having his honour impugned and his free access to library services restricted. The latter could have been mitigated by a profuse apology, but it would appear that the library personnel did not offer such.

When private citizens make themselves judges of public conduct, as the library personnel did here, they must stand accountable for that decision. If they can justify their actions, fine. If not, they should be liable.

Arguments that a civil suit against the library is accomplishing nothing but taking away public funds from a public good (the library) I reject as completely specious. You can't make public servants immune to liability on that basis. Everyone must be accountable, public or private.

And, I might add.... the library personnel are adults, too, I presume? Would it have been too much to ask that a library staffer attended the club meeting, to ensure the children's safety? Would that not have solved the problem without need to turn anyone away?

Since this is of course the case, they have no reasonable cause to turn this man away.

Hmph. Apparently, "role model" no longer exists in the vocabulary of teen/adult interactions. Only negative terms, like "stalker", "paedophile", or "molester".

And that is a sorry state of affairs, really.

- abunai

They did have reasonable cause. It was advertised as a "teen only" event. More people should read the original article.

The expectation of the attendees and their families were for teen-teen interactions. The families of those attendees would have been complaining also if that didn't happen.

In a town of 2,000, that guy should have known better. I still say he needs a background check.

Edit: So you're saying that the library needs to call in more staff on an emergent basis to satisfy one person who really wasn't suppose to be at the event in the first place, abundai?

I wouldn't sue over this if I was him. I would talk to the library about not making it clear that it was teen only.

I would just start up an older anime fan club or something. I'd use my energy for that instead of suing and using hard earned money and priceless time. Plus there isn't any clubs like that is there?

I definitely agree that a lawsuit is a bit much, but as a cryptkeeper aged (read: early 20s) anime fan, I do think the whole sentiment that anime and manga is for teens and that anyone above 18 interested has malicious intentions is sad. I can understand the library intending the group for teens only and I don't know what was said to this guy, but I do understand there aren't as many places for adult anime fans to meet. This is why I'm interested to see what comes of that convention in Rhode Island that was mentioned earlier in this thread. Hopefully they'll be more events like it...

abunai wrote:

Hmph. Apparently, "role model" no longer exists in the vocabulary of teen/adult interactions. Only negative terms, like "stalker", "paedophile", or "molester".

That's what I was about to say as well. Elementary school teachers are adults. By hikaru004's logic, if a fresh college graduate from a big city came to a small town, looking for a position in the only elementary school (assuming he has all required diploma and certificates), the first thing town folks should do would be performing a complete background check because he might be a pedophile looking for prey. Rolling Eyes

May I ask what makes you such a paranoid, hikaru004?

hikaru004 wrote:

In a town of 2,000, that guy should have known better.

Then how large a city has to be so its residents can visit anywhere "as advertised" on fliers, rather than double checking each and every time just in case the flier has misprint/mislabeled something?

hikaru004 wrote:

Edit: So you're saying that the library needs to call in more staff on an emergent basis to satisfy one person who really wasn't suppose to be at the event in the first place, abundai?

They could offer a formal apology and possibilities of manga club for adults. Like I said in my previous post, most people would shrug it off if librarians apologized properly. It's all about PR handling skills.

However, if Mr. Palmer was mistreated by any library employee (I assume in a way similar to the thread opener) then he has every right to sue the institution, particularly on the fact that the library being public. If they want to hold activities with restrictions, fine, but they have to advertise properly weeks in advance. The librarians failed to do so in one flier, and they have to take the blame. End of story. What you said was providing a back door to all civil servants to avoid their responsibilities and escape from possible accusations for failing to do their jobs properly.

hikaru004 wrote:

In a town of 2,000, that guy should have known better. I still say he needs a background check.

Town size means absolutely nothing. For all you know he could be a commuter who rarely participates in local events.

I feel for the guy. Really. Try getting a job in the public libraries around where I live. Nearly everything demands you work with kids, and a Y chromosome was a disadvantage even before the pedophile scares started. (Women are seen as more likely to be nurturing and instructive.) I'm a Library Science student, and the fact that I might wind up having to cross-dress to get a job annoys me to no end, especially after spending something like $10,000 on a degree. Plus, it wouldn't work. This facial hair of mine is impossible.

That said, the library is probably justified in being a little skeptical. If he wants to share his manga, he can donate it to them through the library. If he wants to hang out, he should probably find some people his own age. If nothing else, the library is justified in turning him away because an old fogey like him will scare the teens away- the point of these efforts is generally to get the kids into the library, so given that kids generally don't like to hang out with 43-year old geeks, his presence defeats the purpose right there.

I kid. Bitterly, yes, but I kid nonetheless. Certainly the guy has a right to be offended, and I'd probably be threatening a lawsuit too at this point. But in any case, just settle down. I'll wager good money what eventually happens is that the guy will calm down and not file anything, and the library will smooth things over with a compromise of some sort.

hikaru004 wrote:

They did have reasonable cause. It was advertised as a "teen only" event. More people should read the original article.

Perhaps you should pay better attention to what was actually said in the original article.

Quote:

A weekly library events calendar reads "Anime/manga enthusiasts welcome!" and lists a date, time and location, but no age limit. According to Zaryczny (edit - the library director) and Palmer, one of two flyers for the event also failed to list the age limit.

I am a patron of my city library system (in other words I fork over a sizable pledge check every year) so they send me monthly event calendars by mail and send periodic e-mail updates when new things are added. So if I had received an event calendar containing a meeting for "Anime/manga enthusiasts" I might very well have shown up just like Mr. Palmer did. And once the error had been realized, if someone was rude to me and/or implied that I was some variety of pedophile (as you have in your posts) then an age-discrimination lawsuit would be the very least of their problems.

Quote:

Unaware of the age limit, Palmer said he was upset when he was barred from the meeting and furious at how he was treated by library employees when he tried to file a complaint.

If a similar thing had happened to me and an employee of my local library copped an attitude with me when I attempted to file a complaint I would be looking into an avenue of legal recourse as well.

BellosTheMighty wrote:

I feel for the guy. Really. Try getting a job in the public libraries around where I live. Nearly everything demands you work with kids, and a Y chromosome was a disadvantage even before the pedophile scares started.

Once you get to your library management class, you'll learn about a little concept in library science called the 'glass elevator' - basically, most of the lower positions in public libraries are held by women, but the higher-ups and directors are predominantly men. Being a guy in public librarianship is frequently seen as a sign of REALLY wanting to work in the field, when you could have picked any other...

Furudanuki wrote:

If a similar thing had happened to me and an employee of my local library copped an attitude with me when I attempted to file a complaint I would be looking into an avenue of legal recourse as well.

If you've got the time and the money to screw around with lawsuits, more power to you.

...and, well, if just an apology isn't enough, and you feel like the *only* way to make up for the offense to your fragile ego is a lawsuit, I also think you really have bigger things to worry about first.

dormcat wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Providing teens with a safe and productive environment overrides any perceived civil rights grievance.

Please install/equip/hire

electrified barbed wire
armed guard towers
thermo imagers
motion detectors
canine handlers
mass spectrometer-based explosives/narcotics micro-particle detector (yes, I've operated some, in the lab and in the field)
fixed and portable metal detectors
retinal and fingerprint scanners with facial recognition software

in every library. I'm sure they'll be a lot more safer than they are today.

The OTHER part of rational basis review (other than there being a rational basis for the rule in the first place, and to repeat, courts have already stated quite firmly that protecting children is a legitimate concern of the state) is that the rule be rationally related to the basis. Asking adults to leave is rational. Anti-pervert barbed wire in libraries is not. Further, with rational basis review, the state does not need to choose the least intrusive method, as long as the method chosen is in fact rationally related to the outcome. The good old slippery slope argument doesn't really work here, since the law has been laid out pretty clearly.

dormcat wrote:

abunai wrote:

Hmph. Apparently, "role model" no longer exists in the vocabulary of teen/adult interactions. Only negative terms, like "stalker", "paedophile", or "molester".

That's what I was about to say as well. Elementary school teachers are adults. By hikaru004's logic, if a fresh college graduate from a big city came to a small town, looking for a position in the only elementary school (assuming he has all required diploma and certificates), the first thing town folks should do would be performing a complete background check because he might be a pedophile looking for prey. Rolling Eyes

Actually, yes, that is already exactly what happens when you get a job as a teacher. Are you honestly suggesting that teachers (of any age level) should not have background checks?

By the way, I'm not defending the bad advertising or the library having the age limit in the first place--I'm explaining from a legal point of view why a lawsuit would be a waste of time that this fellow could spend forming his own club, or coming here to the ANN forums to chat with other fans. In addition, if this guy had responded with, "Oh, that's too bad, let's start a club for adults/everyone!" and worked WITH the library, everyone would be a lot better off. He would have his club, the library could have a safe space for children, everyone wins. But what if now, the library totally disbands the manga club? Then NO ONE has a club. How is that better?

Last edited by Furudanuki on Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:00 pm; edited 3 times in total

CorneredAngel wrote:

Furudanuki wrote:

If a similar thing had happened to me and an employee of my local library copped an attitude with me when I attempted to file a complaint I would be looking into an avenue of legal recourse as well.

If you've got the time and the money to screw around with lawsuits, more power to you.

...and, well, if just an apology isn't enough, and you feel like the *only* way to make up for the offense to your fragile ego is a lawsuit, I also think you really have bigger things to worry about first.

I do have the time and the money to screw around with lawsuits if I feel so motivated, thank you. Motivation that would not exist if I had been in this same situation and received a proper apology from the person(s) involved. But since it seems that Mr. Palmer did not receive an apology until after it became known that he was considering a lawsuit your snide little remarks are hardly relevant.

Oh, and by the way, "legal recourse" does not have to mean a lawsuit. In my case, it would involve informing the library that they would no longer be getting that annual pledge check (and matching corporate donation) from me.

BellosTheMighty wrote:

I feel for the guy. Really. Try getting a job in the public libraries around where I live. Nearly everything demands you work with kids, and a Y chromosome was a disadvantage even before the pedophile scares started. (Women are seen as more likely to be nurturing and instructive.) I'm a Library Science student, and the fact that I might wind up having to cross-dress to get a job annoys me to no end, especially after spending something like $10,000 on a degree. Plus, it wouldn't work. This facial hair of mine is impossible.

That said, the library is probably justified in being a little skeptical. If he wants to share his manga, he can donate it to them through the library. If he wants to hang out, he should probably find some people his own age. If nothing else, the library is justified in turning him away because an old fogey like him will scare the teens away- the point of these efforts is generally to get the kids into the library, so given that kids generally don't like to hang out with 43-year old geeks, his presence defeats the purpose right there.

I kid. Bitterly, yes, but I kid nonetheless. Certainly the guy has a right to be offended, and I'd probably be threatening a lawsuit too at this point. But in any case, just settle down. I'll wager good money what eventually happens is that the guy will calm down and not file anything, and the library will smooth things over with a compromise of some sort.

Maybe you should move to where I live. The library I work at hires guys all the time and our director is a male and the leader of the consortium of libraries we belong to on top of that, heh.

But I think the reason why I view this from the perspective I do (that the guy has no business suing this library) is because I work at one. I see creepy people everyday and it's not paranoia on my part, and I don't necessarily think this guy is being a creep, and that he genuinely wanted to show the kids his collection. However, I don't really support him suing the library just because they wouldn't let him into a Teen-only event. Libraries for the most part have a hard enough time getting funding as it is for the limited about activites they can offer the public. If this guy sucessfully sued them (which I doubt will occur), he would be making every other patron at that library suffer when they had to start scaling down activities and charging higher fines.

Like someone else on here said (I think Viga), this guy should be using his energy to create a club for adults instead of draining the library of their resources just because he got the wrong flyer. And honestly, before hauling over his whole collection, he should have just called the library and asked for the details of the event, including what the age limit was. It would have saved him a lot of time and trouble.

The library didn't hurt him and didn't discriminate against him. It was just an error of communication and it's not like he checked up on it beforehand. He should think about what the consequences of his lawsuit might be before he files it. The library is a wonderful community resource and without funds to run it there won't be programs or new materials for anyone.

SIT DOWN C.J. Palmer!

hikaru004 wrote:

I still say he needs a background check.

LOL, your kidding right? I know your not but.................. I really don't know what to say to that. Shocked

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