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OEL manga jumping the shark

mdo7 has a very good point. They are things that manga cover that American comics do not cover, or, at least, don't cover as frequently as in Japanese comics. I'm sure that they are plenty of yaoi/yuri (hopefully more yuri than yaoi) graphic novels out in the world, but let's face it, how often do you find one lying on the book shelves? Now compare that number to manga, and...what do you know? They're more.

Now, right now, I'm starting to feel that the argument is going nowhere. Let's face it, you guys, the anti-OEL camp, keep bringing up the same points over and over again, and we bring up different ones, but you just use the same evidence, recycled endlessly, just to counteract all of our different points. The point is that this argument is going nowhere faster and faster by the second.

Well now Mdo's completely ignoring everything and going on some spree about Olympic manga which I think is a great idea. He also thinks that places like Italy needs to do their own manga, I haven't seen any Original Italian language manga because other countries in Europe did it. Beside Italy had a lot of anime and manga before we did.

The brick wall brigade continues their never ending quest for irrelevant but splendid idea for a Olympic manga which might be cool if the IOC get involved, 'global manga domination', and the manga way. Yay for spreading one culture to another.

Meanwhile, let me help Mdo's marketing idea. I think it's fabulous.

Look at that. Same shit. Different language. Again, this is an English speaking forum, guys. You should learn to use the language.

Yes. Mdo is saying that tentacle rape and harem comics is what makes Japanese comics (aka manga) superior to American comics. Seriously, these are your good points? -stands, slow clap-

Meanwhile, I've seen some sports and gay comics in America. And.. um.. never seen American tentacle rape. Totally don't know of any American porn comics. Yeah.. Plus at least American porn and adult comics don't have crappy censorship laws still left over from post WWII / the 1950s. Screw pixels and black bars. Er.. Again.. Not that I know anything about that.

Anyway, you again simply fail to look well enough for these in America. Your arguments about American comics fail due to your lack of knowledge. You're speaking out of your butt. You have nothing to argue. You are flat out wrong on a number of points. I actually would say the same of your knowledge of Japanese comics (aka manga) too.

Really, if you're going to ignore every point we make for pages and just repeat your tired old mantra which we keep showing makes no sense, just leave the thread already, kid. You lose. Your mind is made up. Your mind is filled with the gutter trash marketing from a number of companies. You pay no attention to examples or acclaimed texts on the subject. You lose. Or maybe we lose. We've lost the battle to bring some reason to the senseless field that is your mind.

Oh and if I'm a wee bit belligerent, well, more than normal, I blame that on having some old firewater in me. That and the Team Fortress 2 while having firewater in me.

I'm still waiting on that definition after 30-something pages. You keep saying a bunch of stuff as if we've been denying them, but we haven't, you just keep ignoring the words we write because you have this weird persecution complex that immediately puts the anti-OEL camp into siding with the Devil.

What is this manga style?

mdo7 has a very good point. They are things that manga cover that American comics do not cover, or, at least, don't cover as frequently as in Japanese comics. I'm sure that they are plenty of yaoi/yuri (hopefully more yuri than yaoi) graphic novels out in the world, but let's face it, how often do you find one lying on the book shelves? Now compare that number to manga, and...what do you know? They're more.

There is weight in his argument. Keep that in mind.

About the sport genres, Japan has done a lot of sport like soccer (Whistle, Captain Tsubasa), Baseball (Big windup, Princess 9, Major), Volleyball (Crimson hero, Attacker series), Basketball (Slam Dunk) there's even a Football (Eyeshield 21) manga/anime.

But there hasn't been a sport that Japan could've done, I think other country that do manga can do this:

figure skating (USA can probably do a OEL manga)
Swimming (USA can do that also for a OEL manga)
Gymnastic (either Romania, USA, Russia can do a global manga for that)
Fencing (I would love to see Italy to do a manga for that)
Lacrosse
Field Hockey
Ice Hockey
Speed Skating
Diving

Now, right now, I'm starting to feel that the argument is going nowhere. Let's face it, you guys, the anti-OEL camp, keep bringing up the same points over and over again, and we bring up different ones, but you just use the same evidence, recycled endlessly, just to counteract all of our different points. The point is that this argument is going nowhere faster and faster by the second.

C'mon guys, this argument is almost as ridiculous as the whole "I say tomato, you say 'toe-mah-toe'" argument.

Oh by the ways Xenos, yes I'm mocking you just like I did to SharinganEyes on one of his.

YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING YOUR OWN MANTRA ALSO. YOU KEEP USING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE NAME OEL MANGA, THEN DON'T BITCH ABOUT IT. WHY DON'T YOU CALLED IT SOMETHING ELSE. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL IT OEL MANGA BECAUSE I THINK IT SOUND APPEALING TO ME. IT'S A DUMB MARKETING SCHEMES TO YOU HUH, WHAT ABOUT LETTING OTHER PEOPLE BESIDE JAPANESE DOING MANGA-STYLE ART AND TELL THEIR STORIES LIKE THAT. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT. THERE ARE GENRES AMERICAN NEVER DONE BEFORE BUT JAPAN DID.

You've been denying our stuff also. KyuuA4, Gamers Elite, and I been trying to show you why OEL manga marketing schemes is much like other schemes that happen in other media like video game. You keep saying that a game and manga are 2 different thing when you don't think parallel, why don't you forget that they are 2 different things and compare the marketing schemes between these 2. We've been telling you that emulation happens all the time and not all emulation sucks, OEL manga and Global manga is one of the few thing that doesn't suck.

We've try using food like Sushi, Pizza, and other food of foreign origin to compare to OEL manga. But you guys just say "no", when you're not thinking parallel. If you're saying manga made in America is not manga, so Sushi made in America is not sushi. What's wrong with using manga as a loanword? So we can't use manga as a loanword, so we should stop using other loanword like protege, coup de'tat, Kamikaze, and other loanword.

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What is this manga style?

I came up with a good definition. If you don't like it, fine!!! Manga style is a emulation of Japanese comic by art and style. Manga style carries a lot of distinction that all Japanese comic or manga has like face fault such as sweatdrop and chibi/SD (some OEL manga doesn't have that). The pages can go from right to left (Most of Tokyopop OEL lines are left to right, but Seven Sea managed to keep that true), all pages in Black and white. Also OEL manga have done something that no American comic book ever done like harem genres.

But don't bash Tokyopop just because they invented it. You want to blame OEL manga don't blame on them. Go blame it to other countries like France, Germany, England, Brazil. Why don't you blame Japan also, they let export manga to us and the whole world love it. They even promote Global manga. Stop debating it here like you want to show the world you are correct. Not all million of people agree with all you three.

Quote:

Look at that. Same shit. Different language. Again, this is an English speaking forum, guys. You should learn to use the language.

I think you use the word manga and other language also. I think I recalled ANN forum use other language when they referred something to anything Japanese.

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Yes. Mdo is saying that tentacle rape and harem comics is what makes Japanese comics (aka manga) superior to American comics. Seriously, these are your good points? -stands, slow clap-

OK, when was the last time DC/Marvel/Dark Horse had a tentacle Rape comic book. Let me see:
La BLue girl comic book adaption by Matt Lunsford and Jose Calderon. Intresting fact: A lot of people thought it was a manga even though it was made in USA.

I never see any other tentacle rape comic book after that.

YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING YOUR OWN MANTRA ALSO. YOU KEEP USING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE NAME OEL MANGA, THEN DON'T BITCH ABOUT IT. WHY DON'T YOU CALLED IT SOMETHING ELSE. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL IT OEL MANGA BECAUSE I THINK IT SOUND APPEALING TO ME. IT'S A DUMB MARKETING SCHEMES TO YOU HUH, WHAT ABOUT LETTING OTHER PEOPLE BESIDE JAPANESE DOING MANGA-STYLE ART AND TELL THEIR STORIES LIKE THAT. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT. THERE ARE GENRES AMERICAN NEVER DONE BEFORE BUT JAPAN DID. .

You've been denying our stuff also. KyuuA4, Gamers Elite, and I been trying to show you why OEL manga marketing schemes is much like other schemes that happen in other media like video game. You keep saying that a game and manga are 2 different thing when you don't think parallel, why don't you forget that they are 2 different things and compare the marketing schemes between these 2. We've been telling you that emulation happens all the time and not all emulation sucks, OEL manga and Global manga is one of the few thing that doesn't suck. Why don't you accept it, just because it's not Japanese. So I'm going to assume that the Japanese game, Yakuza which emulate GTA is not GTA Clone because GTA clones is a American game and Yakuza is a Japanese game. So therefore, any GTA-style video game made in Japan is not a GTA clone because it's not American.

We've try using food like Sushi, Pizza, and other food of foreign origin to compare to OEL manga. But you guys just say "no", when you're not thinking parallel. If you're saying manga made in America is not manga, so Sushi made in America is not sushi. What's wrong with using manga as a loanword? So we can't use manga as a loanword, so we should stop using other loanword like protege, coup de'tat, Kamikaze, and other loanword.

Quote:

What is this manga style?

I came up with a good definition. If you don't like it, fine!!! Manga style is a emulation of Japanese comic by art and style.

Manga style carries a lot of distinction that all Japanese comic or manga has like face fault such as sweatdrop and chibi/SD (some OEL manga doesn't have that).

The pages can go from right to left (Most of Tokyopop OEL lines are left to right, but Seven Sea managed to keep that true),

all pages in Black and white.

Also OEL manga have done something that no American comic book ever done like harem genres.

Thank you for your support Elite. That's right, I've never seen DC/Marvel/Dark Horse doing a Shonen-AI, Yaoi, Yuri, or Harem genres ever. Japan invented all that (even though I've seen American comic book facing issue with being a gay person).

I've never seen DC/Marvel doing something creative beside superheroes.

They could have at least create a American comic book clone version of Bleach, Deathnote, Naruto, or a mecha-style genre from DC/Marvel. They could at least create a Sailor Moon like parody. I've never seen any American Comic book that has a story to Gundam Wing.

About the sport genres, Japan has done a lot of sport like soccer (Whistle, Captain Tsubasa), Baseball (Big windup, Princess 9, Major), Volleyball (Crimson hero, Attacker series), Basketball (Slam Dunk) there's even a Football (Eyeshield 21) manga/anime. ... etc.

I find this argument stupid and pointless. Xenos, SharinganEyes, Moomintroll, Why don't you called OEL manga/global manga whatever you want. You don't have to call it OEL manga, you're free to call it whatever you want.

But don't bash Tokyopop just because they invented it. You want to blame OEL manga don't blame on them.

Go blame it to other countries like France, Germany, England, Brazil.

Why don't you blame Japan also, they let export manga to us and the whole world love it.

They even promote Global manga. Stop debating it here like you want to show the world you are correct. Not all million of people agree with all you three.

Seriously, stop with the ALL CAPS LOL. It's annoying. We keep repeating ourselves because you refuse to read them or answer them. We don't like the term "OEL manga," just like you keep claiming it's within your rights to keep using it, it's within our rights to contest the validity of the term, one which you've admitted the main driving force behind it was a marketing gimmick. We've never physically disabled people from taking from manga. We've never been against the concept of adaptation and expansion. We've been for those. We're just against the wrong terminology.

Oh wait, I've explained this before, many many many times...

Calling something an "OEL manga" restricts it because it not only restricts manga into a generic style, but relegates the "OEL manga" that utilizes that generic style into generic copies, derivatives.

I'm asking you repeated to describe this art and style. We already know that the OEL camp uses manga as a style. Add more than that. What does it look like? What exactly does this style encompass? What are its limits? What is its artistic range? Technicalities, specifications, that what we want to know.

If that's all "OEL manga" is, those generalities, then all it is is a poor stereotype, less even. In fact, you just said not all "OEL manga" have sweatdrops and chibi/SD. So are they still "OEL manga?" Why? What criteria do they fit?

TokyoPop failed its creators, and many of their hard work has been canceled just like that. TokyoPop has long since stopped using the term "OEL manga." Those other countries don't call their works "Original Whatever Language Manga." Not to mention this is an American anime site. If you're calling us out on our reasons for engaging in this debate, maybe you should look in the mirror.

I feel like I'm reading 100 Years of Solitude, my goodness.

@mdo7:

Media: television, comics, newspapers, movies, games etc.
Genres: romance, drama, action, comedy, horror etc.

See the difference?

Comics is a medium and manga is part of that medium. It is not a genre, but more like a very large subset.

Yes, manga does have more variety in genres, but the number of genres does not define manga. It doesn't make Japanese comics better or worse than American/European comics either. It's great that the Japanese create comics such as Yakitate!! Japan, but why would you be proud of genres that are inheritly sexist (harem) or even border on being illegal (it starts with loli and ends with con...)?

BAM. Exactly the point these guys just aren't getting. They merely bring stereotypes and marketable cliches. They think this makes a proper definition? It's like hading in your freshman English paper on irony in Hamlet and using an Alanis Morrisette song as your source. YOU FAIL. You lack understanding of the term and your sources are pop culture garbage.

Like I said, quoting Zero Punctuation's Prince of Persia review:

These manga are not what people would call American comics, but rather, manga drawn outside of Japan. As in the case of manhwa, the Chinese and Korean equivalent of manga, people of English-speaking countries have begun to coin another term for their work, often now referred to as “original English language manga” (OEL manga), or for all encompassing purposes “world manga.”

In a recent interview with TIME Magazine, Natsuki Takaya, the author of “Fruits Basket,” expressed that OEL manga was a part of an expanding art form.

I think that nationality has no relation to that which gives rise to manga. Even among the Japanese, manga creators are making their creations everyday reflecting their own individuality, with none being the same. What is important isn’t the differences between the creators but their love for manga.

I’ve always strived to make our manga seem as Japanese as possible, which is why our manga read from right to left, even though they’re written in English originally,” DeAngelis said. “Some people think it’s crazy, but for me, that’s how manga is supposed to be; it’s natural and readers are already used to it. Beyond the format, I feel that manga is like a language unto itself, and we understand that language, or we try our best to, at least.

Rivkah, the artist of OEL manga “Steady Beat,” shows just the variety not seen in Japanese manga.

“Steady Beat is uniquely Texan. It has Texas culture, Texas architecture, a Texas school system, Texas people, and also Texan biases,” Rivkah said. “If the plot of my story, a girl who realizes her sister’s gay, were to occur in Japan, it’d be a completely different story.”

I’m seeing stories done in the OEL market I’ve never before seen done in Japanese manga

I can’t find it right now, but I read the explanation by the guy who came up with the term OEL. He wasn’t a marketer, just a guy who likes manga and american comics who needed a word for “comics done by english speakers in a manga style.” OEL was shorter. He also said that it isn’t a very good label, because the “english language” part doesn’t work for all those people telling stories in French, Spanish, or German who use a manga style.

OEL is a pretty useful label for people living in the US. “Comics” in the united states usually means superhero stories sold as floppies. “Graphic Novels” usually means very serious artsy trade paperbacks, usually ironic, depressing, or satirical ones.

I’ve seen “OEL” used alot, and I think it is pretty useful. I think it describes what a lot of people want to do: tell stories that use the essential techniques of manga. Just like with fanfiction, a lot of people start out just with imitation, but most are trying to really understand what makes it work, and are trying to tell interesting stories using those tools.

I don’t see how this is going to destroy anyone’s art. I don’t understand what you are getting at. Or do you mean that because people are trying to sell OEL as being manga-like, the artists are going to get squeezed and won’t be able to try anything new? I sure wouldn’t want to work on contract with Tokyopop, based on the stories I’ve heard! From that interview: “We co-own it together” = “you are hosed.”

Not that there’s anything wrong with that - but there’s many more stories to tell. Thanks to OEL and webcomics, there’s space to tell them in. People are excited about manga because they can find so many different kinds of stories that mean something to them. Right now its a bit of a mess - we don’t even have genre labels for some of the stuff that’s being produced, so we’ve had to import those too.

But like its already been mentioned...Yes, in Japan they have baseball. It has its own flavor, but its still BASEBALL. Just like manga. American manga may differ greatly from Japanese manga, but its still, in essence, MANGA. It follows a certain style, the illustration style and whatnot are similar. I'll quote Lida Zeff from Dramacon: "So, if a non-Japanese person draws it, its not manga? Applying this logic to something else we all know and love...a pizza is not a pizza unless it's baked by an Italian in Italy. Yes?" And, in my opinion, people who get THAT pissed off about American manga (especially when they ARE American) are overly obsessed...and losers at life. Like its already been said, art (and manga) is supposed to be free and unrestricted.

I believe manga is a style! That means anyone (with talent) in the universe who sticks to the basic variations of manga are participating in the movement. Japanese manga, is of course manga from Japan. So what would American manga be? Just comics? Of course not! The majority of American comics I have seen have all fallen out of the basic manga variations. We can call it "Japanese manga" because it originated in Japan, however, manga these days does not only originate in Japan but is a popular art style all around the globe!

If it's in the manga aisle at a bookstore, then it's manga. If it looks like manga (big eyes, no nose) it's manga. But, that's MY definition. Everyone's got a different view on things! If you don't wanna call something that's drawn by someone who's not japanese manga, then don't: just don't make a huge fuss about what someone else thiks! Everyone is entitled to their OWN OPINION.

forget the media and genres. Look at the marketing schemes on OEL manga/global manga and look at the marketing schemes of other media that emulate others like Grand Theft Auto. You have to think parallel. I keep telling you guys this and you ignore that fact.

Geez, you guys really hate OEL manga, you know what, do you guys read 1 OEL manga and thought "oh, it sucks and maybe other OEL manga sucks" just because 1 OEL manga was not good meaning that other OEL manga sucks. No, you just have to gice OEL manga a chance. OEL manga does go a little beyond what Japanese manga have done.

Here's what Natsuki Takaya, author of the award-winning shojo manga, Fruit Baskets said:

Natsuki Takaya wrote:

I think that nationality has no relation to that which gives rise to manga. Even among the Japanese, manga creators are making their creations everyday reflecting their own individuality, with none being the same. What is important isn’t the differences between the creators but their love for manga.

oh, you might as well throw away Fruit Baskets manga and boycott every manga that Takaya made because she promote non-Japanese manga. I agree with her and she seems to like my view on manga doesn't need to be made in Japan.

I think that nationality has no relation to that which gives rise to comics. Even among the Japanese, comics creators are making their creations everyday reflecting their own individuality, with none being the same. What is important isn’t the differences between the creators but their love for comics.

Your mind simply fails to comprehend all of this behind some cheap marketing. There's no talking to you if you're unwilling to look beyond this smoke screen.

Looks beyond the shell of marketing and get to the actual meat of the matter. Your mind simply fails to comprehend all of this behind some cheap marketing.

There. Now it's fully in English. Unless you want to make toss in more Japanese words. Maybe instead of creators call them manga-ka. Maybe the Japanese for individuality.

The manga house plans to release about a dozen of these graphic novels into the market starting in February of 2009 with the program growing gradually over the years.

We really do believe in the globalization of manga. It’s not just marketing hype. Something about it speaks to everybody

We’ve always viewed ourselves as global cool hunters. We believe that manga exists in a number of different flavors and variant styles all over the world.

2. Manga is the Japanese word for comics, so it's not strange a Japanese comic artists used it. The translator could have translated it to comics, which would have changed the tone of the article.

3. What is your obsession with comics having to be like other comics? There is no need for two Here is Greenwoods or five Ranma 1/2 or whatever, one is enough.

I never met a troll and a dumba** who read OEL manga and doesn't like the marketing. You know Xenos, I oughta torture you, but using bunch of OEL manga as the tool until you learn to accept it. As a matter of fact, I'll show you the history of marketing schemes similar to how OEL manga did.

Xenos wrote:

Your mind simply fails to comprehend all of this behind some cheap marketing. There's no talking to you if you're unwilling to look beyond this smoke screen.

OK, so everything is cheap marketing. Video game that imitate one another. So what about internet, they copied off one another. So I guess they all sucks. Is that what you're saying? Let me ask you this, why are you ok with the marketing schemes with everything that TV, video game, and other media copies off, but when it's come to OEL manga, you make a big deal with it

Why did you say that "OEL manga is a danger to manga industry", even though it hasn't collapsed yet. Last post I put, it said OEL manga is still popular. I believe Aoi House was #2 at IGN best manga. You say that "as long as if it was made in Japan, it's manga", that doesn't sound like somebody read OEL manga. That's bias.

So tell me what's wrong with the marketing. they do use manga as a buzzword of course. So do other country that put the label manga on their work. They don't have to label it manga, they can just leave it in the manga section in the bookstore, and people buy it.

They will still buy it even if it labeled as manga or not.

I wouldn't mind if the manga, Deathnote is next to a issue of Sin City in the same section.

So, what is your point with the bad marketing, and your explanation of the bad marketing schemes is vague explain that to me? I don't see the point to what you're saying.

Explain what's wrong with the marketing, enlighten me. I don't see the problem yet. I can't even see it in front of me.

Xenos wrote:

There. Now it's fully in English. Unless you want to make toss in more Japanese words. Maybe instead of creators call them manga-ka. Maybe the Japanese for individuality.

All right, let's make this forum a little bit more language accessible.
... etc

All right, officially I decided to make Takaya's talk into other language so to prove that OEL manga/Global manga has no language barrier. Speaking of Global, how many of you heard of globalization?

You think this is all but a dirty marketing schemes. No, it's a example of globalization. This happens all the time, a nation introduced something then other nation emulate it. That's what OEL manga/global manga is about, the effect of globalization. This is not a marketing schemes.

Oh on the related story about Global manga and globalization. I founded a article and Tokyopop is going to bring back OEL manga next year.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6552166.html
...
I believe you said OEL manga is failing, how come it says growing gradually, but not failing horribly. Oh because, OEL manga/Global manga are read by many people in America and other part of the world.

I believe Mike Kiley has something to say about the global manga and your view on this marketing schemes you saying is cheap.

Mike Kiley wrote:

We really do believe in the globalization of manga. It’s not just marketing hype. Something about it speaks to everybody

He also quote:

Quote:

We’ve always viewed ourselves as global cool hunters. We believe that manga exists in a number of different flavors and variant styles all over the world.

From what I read, it doesn't sound like they just want to cash in. But they want to a lot of non-Japanese artists to do their stories. But I like how they tell it not in a way it been used for over a 90 years. That;s why OEL manga/global manga is made, to try something new.

Quit saying what, KyuuA4? The truth? Manga is the Japanese word for comics. What part of this simple statement do you kids not get?

You're rendering your argument useless because you're showing how bigoted you are against American books.