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egoist wrote:

I heavily depend on fansubs, but I'm really curious about what it'd be like without them around.

I'm definitely not going to start blind buying every series I'm interested in watching, and that's where the fansubs comes in.

You'd have to do "informed" blnd buying if you want to know what it's like to live without a fansub.

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Basically, even if they are successful, I still believe it's really risky for the anime industry to completely get rid of fansubbing groups.
Just as some say, if people enjoy anime and have the money, they will buy it. If not, they'll simply quit anime.

I'd much rather see those "others" leave as they aren't helping me.

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Anti-piracy might've failed against music or movies, but technology keeps improving, and at some point it'll reach a point where we won't have as much freedom online as we used to. And that's something bound to happen sooner or later.

I think your confusing choice with freedom, having thousands of anime series to choose from is not freedom in that freedom requires the one trait that the online anime fandom is severely lacking in: Responsibility.

Bind yourself in the chains of freedom and you'll notice that fansubs are taking parts of your rights away.

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Either way, it'd be great to see the anime industry start growing again, and making things cheaply available for us, foreigners.

Either way we can agree here.

LordRedhand wrote:

You'd have to do "informed" blnd buying if you want to know what it's like to live without a fansub.

That's what I did until about a year and a half ago, and it's going to be mostly what I do when I get back to the states in a few days. It worked fairly well for me.

I'm not going to say fansubs are the devil. I prefer to avoid them if I can though. There's generally plenty to buy without delving into the fansub realm. During my transition from military to civilian I was at home for a couple of months. I knew I was coming back out here for an extended period of time, so I had a continuous download set for about a month. I downloaded so much that the internet company got pissed off and shut down my internet connection. I have three folders on my computer that are for fansubs. The base folder is just called 'Anime'. That's for things I haven't watched yet. The second folder is called 'Buy'. That's pretty self-explanatory. The third and final folder isn't so much a folder as it is a service provided to all Windows users. It's called the 'Recycle Bin'. That's where the crap for crap goes. Razz

I'm with the faction that says this "Global Anti-Piracy Effort" isn't going to do much though. If people want it they're going to get it. It would probably be cheaper to hire a few hackers and have them continually do denial-of-service attacks on the sites that offer links and downloads to their stuff.

Onizuka666 wrote:

I find this as not much to worry about overall, as this list does not represent the huge portion of the anime industry that serves us. And as far as classic anime like Space Runaway Ideon, LotGH etc go, fansubs are the only way to get them. So long as they are available, as a fan I need to see as much as I can. I'd love to buy m, though, but there's no chance in hell of that.

I've actually noticed that the torrents on series mentioned in Buried Garbage are usually dead until the article it posted, at which point they go through the roof. Older unlicensed are one of the few legitimate arguments for fansubs, not just because they're unlikely to be licensed, but because they can raise awareness of series that otherwise fans might never hear about. Naruto, Clannad, One Piece - these don't need press, people hear about them.

If I had to envision a beautiful future for the anime fandom, the majority of popular series would be available to stream worldwide online for at least limited period either with ads or withs ome form of payment; video services like Netflix would carry most anime to let us rent it; libraries would expand their manga and anime collections; box sets would be the main release format; and fansubs would only cover the obscure stuff. Fansubbers would become more responsible about what they released, and rips of DVDs and videocam copies of movies would be removed everywhere online.

In the meanwhile, watch it streamed if you can, if you feel you must resort to fansubs, do not distribute them and do not keep them if they are licensed or if you do not intend to buy them.

Ralifar wrote:

I have three folders on my computer that are for fansubs. The base folder is just called 'Anime'. That's for things I haven't watched yet. The second folder is called 'Buy'. That's pretty self-explanatory. The third and final folder isn't so much a folder as it is a service provided to all Windows users. It's called the 'Recycle Bin'. That's where the crap for crap goes. Razz

I like your philosophy!

pparker wrote:

Sceleris wrote:

get more collectors from around the world to buy awesomely expensive collector's editions

I agree with everything you said, but here's where the economics breaks down, I think. The Japanese otaku market is centered on this concept and still works. That same model hasn't worked apparently in the U.S., though I can't speak for other markets. It's simply that there aren't enough of us. It might work if the Japanese distributed multi-language versions directly, but then you have the problem of dubs and localization for the varying cultures of even English-speaking countries.

Yes, that "there aren't enough of [you]" is what I was talking about. For making it worth the effort they'd have to think globally. I was thinking that maybe the Japanese could try including a few subtitles in foreign languages on their releases in order to extend their market. If a Japanese anime DVD targeted to otaku who are willing to pay 70 USD per volume (of 1-2 episodes per volume) only sells in the order of a few thousand copies, surely expanding the market to foreign collectors could make a considerable addition to their sales (like going from 5000 to 8000 sold, at least).

I would posit that dubbing and localization (such as advertising and translated box art) is a non-issue for "hard core" collectors. Dubbing, because (and I mean no disrespect to dub fans) someone who imports really expensive DVD sets is probably the kind who would want to watch the original language version. And localization, because we do not need to be persuaded -- we already know what we want. Chances are, even if the DVD subtitles are only in English, it would be sufficient -- checking Alexa, only half of the traffic to Crunchyroll, which is exclusively in English, comes from countries with English as their first language. I would think that "hard core" collectors are even more likely to understand written English. (After all, we non-English speakers are used to having the really sweet collector's stuff, like the Criterion Collection, only being available in Foreignese.)

Dubbed, localized versions can still be made after that, of course, if the demand is high enough.

When I e-mailed Justin a few months back with this:

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With niche popularities of fansubbed shows like East of Eden, Regios, etc., if a company were to license it (Kadokawa Pictures USA like Enoki Films has a number of anime titles that are either up from grabs because they are license holders or because they released the titles to foreign English speaking markets), wouldn't these potentially do decent for sales? I think they would. Hell, if we got Xam'd licensed, that would be good because other Studio Bones titles (Bebop, Alchemist, Eureka 7, Wolf's Rain, and Ouran) have done either well or very well in sales and dubs/subs reception.

His response:

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As much as I would like DVDs of stuff like Eden of the East and X'amd, nothing sells well anymore; anime DVD has no future.

He has a point. In addition to this bad economy and the advent of simulcast, anime DVDs here really have no future. Even highly anticipated titles like Evangelion 1.0 and Shippuden being released either now or the next 2 months, there really is no chance of a rise in DVD sales unless we find that title that would put us back on our feet.

Its not like the governments of the world want to deal with this so I think this is a stab in the right direction. I wonder if this network can send out cease and desist orders.

Asia is a good place to start since they probably dont even have licensors in those countries. In the west they will have to send the technology overseas most likely to the distributors and only renew linceses with distributors that are willing to employ the use of this technology.

I'm basically making all this up though. I do not really know how it will work.

This effort would, if successful to the utmost degree at removing illegal content, prevent those unwilling or unable to pay for anime from continuing to take an active interest in it. This is, unless legal streaming becomes an option for them.
Focussing our attention instead on the set of those who already obtain anime through paid-for legal means, we can imagine this set increasing in size through the new inclusion of those who turn to retail products in absence of fansubs.
A decrease in the size of this set can also be conceived of, owing to those who are averse to blind-buying no longer being able to preview potential acquisitions in the manner they prefer. This is, again, unless legal streaming becomes an option for them.

Though none of this is very profound, one questions whether the number of those continuing to pay for anime, or for that matter the number of purchases being made per unit time, will increase on the whole through measures being proposed.

I'm going to be blunt, I like the fansubs and I think that they are a far better marketing system for anime DVDs than standard preveiws and ad campaigns. When I look at my collection, I realize that I would not have bought any of them if I hadn't seen them first. If they manage to wipeout fansubs and unlicensed downloads (not that they will) I will not chance my hard earned money on a product I don't know.

CrossoverManiac wrote:

The anime studios would be better off hiring fansubbers and offer live streaming into the US. The strong arm approach backfired on them. Media Factory laid down the law on the fansub sites like [this is a bittorrent site] but when they did, most of their anime weren't picked up by the distributors in the US. Looks like history will repeat itself.

Hiring fansubbers? You got to be kidding me on that one. Not going to happen.

agila61 wrote:

Consider, the latest half year sales figures for all anime media (DVD, BRD, videotape, etc.) were around $1.4b for the half year, so suppose its $2.8b for the year. Sales in the US at their peak early in this decade where $500m. Now they are $350m.

These figures must include movies whose economics and distribution are vastly different from televised series and OVAs. Given recent events among US licensors, I find it hard to believe that the the market for anime DVDs, excluding theatrical films, comes close to $350 million in the US. Just removing Ghibli films from the list would make a huge dent in this figure.

pparker wrote:

The merchandise market is 10 times the size of the DVD market in the U.S., and I assume at least the same for Japan. That's where the money is.

While I often agree with pparker, I also find this statistic hard to fathom. I realize that merchandise sales play an enormous role in determining anime revenues in Japan, but I would have thought they pale beside DVD sales in places like R1. Moreover, who benefits from the sales of licensed merchandise overseas? Do the R1 licensors get a share, or does it all accrue to the Japanese production committees? I've never heard anything about companies like Funi or ADV profiting from merchandise sales from the shows they license; they always seem entirely focused on sales of the DVDs themselves.

TheGoddesswatcher wrote:

Hiring fansubbers? You got to be kidding me on that one. Not going to happen.

Some of Crunchyroll's best translators started as fansubbers.

animekitty wrote:

I'm going to be blunt, I like the fansubs and I think that they are a far better marketing system for anime DVDs than standard preveiws and ad campaigns. When I look at my collection, I realize that I would not have bought any of them if I hadn't seen them first. If they manage to wipeout fansubs and unlicensed downloads (not that they will) I will not chance my hard earned money on a product I don't know.

I think the focus now is not about seeing 1 or 2 episodes and saying "I will buy this", but more about see the whole show and then buying the DVD if you can say "I will re-watch this"

504NOSON2 wrote:

luffypirate85 wrote:

On the whole "majority of Haruhi Youtube viewers being from Japan" thing, maybe they aren't? I've noticed its a trendy thing for non Japan residing teen (or preteen) anime netwatchers to label their profiles as being from Japan. Sometimes they even add in some really poor sterotypical Japanese writing or asian-esque emoticons to up the authenticity.

That's actually SO true. HAHA! I was discussing this with someone late last year. We both noticed it. Although, I'm not sure the statistics are based on what people choose as their country, but, rather on ISP locations. Still, an excellent point.

I'm with the second one on that. Even though all those punks set their country to Japan, Youtube is most likely tracking the ISPs. How else could they get statistics for people who don't have accounts?

As someone mentioned Content-ID, it seems wise to say that Japanese companies don't seem to like profit-sharing deals with American companies, which is exactly what Content-ID is. All the same, the Japanese companies are wont to have the content blocked rather than flagged with ads.

The big point of this is that the Japanese are using American (and other, possibly) fansub groups as sources for pirated anime. If you think that all Japanese otaku are upstanding industry-supporting nonpirates, you've never seen the tapemaker in Otaku no Video. They are spending money on figurines and junk, yeah, but many appear to be pirating actual anime. And their sources are outside of Japan. Combating piracy abroad (especially in China with its billion people and America with its wads of cash) is as much part of stopping piracy in Japan as anything else.

In the end, there is no real justification for piracy. It's wrong; it's stealing. And I'm not saying that from a holier-than-thou perspective: I'm as much a pirate as anyone else (maybe a little less, whatever Rolling Eyes

). If it can be gotten rid of, the actual economics of making anime and sending it abroad will work a lot better.

KanjiiZ wrote:

@KendoGirl
The thing about Australia is you guys get anime. Few anime, but you get some of the best anime out there. You guys hardly get any crap. If you ever feel bad about the few anime you have in your country, always remember that Australia has Mind Game. Mind Game that we don't have.

There is absolutely no comparison - I believe Australia get's even more anime than we do in the UK but you still can't say "we get multiple times the anime you do and streamed anime you are blocked from - but that's OK because you have a couple of things we don't and I don't like everything that is released here anyway".

Onizuka666 wrote:

I'm from England and can't access Crunchyroll, Hulu etc, so using fansubs and purchasing dvds, either official or imports, are more only avenues.

Have you tries accessing Crunchyroll? I'm from Wales and I've just finished marathoning Asura Cryin'. Not everything is available to us here unfortunately, but to say you "can't access" it is a fallacy.

kdmccaskill wrote:

they should do what the film industry did, realize you can't stop illegal downloads and put videos on 1080p blueray so your not buying the anime but the quality of the anime
it would take forever to download an 8 gig mkv file

Bluray is no barrier, they can are are ripped anyway. With the availability of high speed broadband all you need it time - I doubt 8GB would take me more than a night and that would be assuming that the whole disc was used in the first place and that the download wasn't stripped of extras and audio tracks and compressed down further.

panzer.time wrote:

As someone mentioned Content-ID, it seems wise to say that Japanese companies don't seem to like profit-sharing deals with American companies, which is exactly what Content-ID is. All the same, the Japanese companies are wont to have the content blocked rather than flagged with ads.

It is only one company, but might I direct your attention to the following:
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-05-28/kadokawa-youtube-to-share-ads-on-user-generated-videos
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-05/kadokawa-outlines-youtube-plans-to-businessweek
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-01-03/kadokawa-gets-over-10-million-yen-monthly-from-youtube

I'm not a big AMV person, but I have seen a fanmade and uploaded AMV on Youtube with Kadokawa's name on it.

The MPAA and the RIAA have been fighting this fight on the internet for a long time, and for the most part, have not really been able to dent the illegal distribution of their works on the web. Lawsuits, CnD requests, attempts to get government and ISP to be their IP police, and I can still find the latest movies and music from pretty much anywhere on the planet through Google.

I wish them the best, really I do... But I doubt those studios can even come close to the financial muscle that the RIAA or the MPAA has, and they can't do anything other than batter useful devices (Realplayer DVD storage) and fight technology (DVR, VHS, slingbox, any recording ability has met with a legal fight from them). The Pirate Bay was shut down, but it's a hydra. There are thousands of other places to find the same content that Pirate Bay hosted.

In short, this will probably be a waste of money with no real financial gain for the studios and very little, if any, impact on the general populace. They are following the examples of the MPAA, and resisting change at any cost. Learning from the mistakes of others beats repeating the mistake.

... Someone has probably already covered this, but still, a nice reminder to all the "on noes, my anime for free will be gone?!"

Shiroi Hane wrote:

panzer.time wrote:

As someone mentioned Content-ID, it seems wise to say that Japanese companies don't seem to like profit-sharing deals with American companies, which is exactly what Content-ID is. All the same, the Japanese companies are wont to have the content blocked rather than flagged with ads.

It is only one company, but might I direct your attention to the following:
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-05-28/kadokawa-youtube-to-share-ads-on-user-generated-videos
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-05/kadokawa-outlines-youtube-plans-to-businessweek
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-01-03/kadokawa-gets-over-10-million-yen-monthly-from-youtube

I'm not a big AMV person, but I have seen a fanmade and uploaded AMV on Youtube with Kadokawa's name on it.

Looks to me like only approved AMVs would be allowed by Kadokawa. I doubt that they would just let fansubs of unreleased series (Haruhi season 2, anyone?) sit around. However, the fansubs I watched (shoot me) are still up, to my knowledge. Not to say there isn't legit anime on YouTube. If I remember right, YouTube (plus Cartoon Network) is how I watched Code Geass legally. It's just that American fansubs are being used by Japanese consumers when they really oughta be buying the stuff that is readily available in their country.

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