Forum - View topicOEL manga jumping the shark
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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I'd rather deal with the dead body of an age old real person than your silly little imaginary friend with stereotypical giant eyes any day. Your definition of manga is fluff. You can't even form a coherent definition of the word. Don't declare the king to be dead if he's perfectly fine and you just want to usurp power in a manga coup d'etat. These is nothing wrong with this baby here, quit throwing him out with the bathwater. Funny. Americans used to have the bad stereotype that Japanese had small 'slant' eyes, among other bigoted views during the war and even after. Now you're helping to propagate one that the Japanese create comics with giant eyes and other such simple minded crap. Sorry, buddy, but I can't stand to see manga boiled down to BS marketable stereotypes.
If the words "manga" and "quality" have become associated, it's a biased view and it's simply wrong. If you keep this up, you're biased view is useless in this conversation, pal. Hell. You admit your bias. You have no business continuing this conversation if you continue such outright close mindedness. It has all the futility of inviting the KKK to an Obama rally. Sure you have the right to say you won't look at an American comic. I also have the right to say that if you do that, if that's what someone does, then that person is a close minded moron and borderline racist who is against his own country.
Jim Davis actually approved that Garfield free strip due to its simply bizzare new humor being brought to old strips. If you think that's an example of why Garfield sucks, you're wrong. Not that Garfield doesn't suck, you're just grasping at straws in your out right comics bashing. If you think Garfrield is all there is to the old format of the comic strip, you're wrong. Plus just because one comic is bad, all of them are? What BS is that? That's lumping in a whole country's output with one bad comic. That's tantamount to saying just because one black guy stole your car stereo, that all black people steal car stereos. Dear goodness, man, listen to yourself and the prejudiced filth coming from your mouth. Are you gonna say that a classic comic like Calvin and Hobbes sucks because it's not manga? Or something silly like Calvin and Hobbes is manga because it is good? Can you just admit already that good old American comics can be simply amazing, no Japanese required? Are you actually saying that manga is simply better than comics, period? Are you that stupid and simple minded? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you and this is not what you're saying. Again, leave your bias and bigotry against American comics at the door, or your conversation here is useless.
You're so full of crap in your black and white world where manga is good and comics are bad. Of course I'm not saying Tezuka sucks. I'm saying you can't lump all manga and all comics into two separate camps. They all belong to the same damn world. There's good and bad in both Japan and America. Your pro-Japanese bigotry is astonishing. You say, if you're not with us, you're against all manga? Really, do you morons work for the Bush administration? You show the same level of intelligence and similar thought simple minded processes. If we don't say manga is better than comics, then Tezuka sucks? Wow. Keep on piling it higher and deeper. Really. Your crass bashing of America and its comics is amazing. Please, do us all a favor and move to Japan. You clearly show no love for this country or its industry and creators. You're so brainwashed with the word manga, it's pathetic. Ding ding. Pavlov's bitches have been trained so well by their masters, you don't even realize there's no steak on the plate. |
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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What is the point of this? Bande dessinée (BD) is the word the French use for comics. Outside of Europe, BD is used to refer to European comics. So in this context, the mangaka is talking about comics in general. If she said manga in the Japanese text, she was talking about comics in general. Kyu, I bet you're such a Japanophile you prefer Sazae-san over Garfield. |
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SharinganEye
 Posts: 402 Location: Les Etats-Unis d'Amérique |
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Oh boy, guess I'm out of an early retirement!
Where the HELL do you get off on telling me what I like and don't like? Where the HELL do you get off on putting words in my mouth? Where the HELL do you get off on calling me a racist and a terrorist? Where the HELL do you get off on questioning where I lived? Where the HELL do you get off on spewing crap like that? Where the HELL do you get off on insulting my intelligence by refusing read what I write? Huh? Pay attention, you little snot. I'm getting tired of your finger-pointing and dictating what I like and don't like when you've got on freaking blinders.
That's not what your work to be known as.
There is a difference between just producing mechanical derivations and using those same mechanics to produce original works. They don't have to look different, or use different structure. They can visually look very much like "manga" and still be original, or at least a quality work. That's what "OEL manga" needs to become, not just copies.
STEREOTYPE = BAD. You can have an opinion, just know that you'll have to be able to back it up, and that some opinions are wrong. "The sky is a tiny calculator plotting a rebellion for Canada."
I do call it something else. Comics. And just like how you keep spouting you have the freedom of speech, we have the freedom of speech to say you're wrong and show you why. You're the one who admitted that "OEL manga" was a "dumb marketing." All we said about emulation, the very act itself, eventually hits a dead end. You've been making assumptions and putting words in our mouths about how we hate America and are working with terrorists and hate this and that because we call Japanese comics, Japanese comics. Again and again--I'm starting to wonder if you even understand English--Korean manhwa is more than emulations of manga. It's an entire country's comics output, and there's way more than emulations of manga. In fact, an example I keep mentioning, "Shin Angyo Onshi," is a great example of an "adaptation" brought to life. It looks and feels like a manga but isn't a mindless, superficial visual clone. Oh, and glad to see you stereotyping another country's entire visual medium as copies. They don't call their works "Original Korean Language Manga," they use their own words for comics, manhwa. We've been through this. This is an American site, so we discuss matters relevant to us. Not Germany or Britain. They don't call their works "Original German Language Manga," this convention is an American one. Your red herrings are annoying. We single out TokyoPop because they've been the ones who pushed this marketing, and the one who ditched it and failed their creators. And one last thing: READ WHAT WE ACTUALLY WRITE. P.S. - Stop using Google translator. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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How can you state this preposterous "fact" when you've barely read any Japanese or American comics? You simply don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Given that nobody anywhere has read every American comic or every Japanese comic, that's an equally stupid thing to say.
"Associated" in your mind, maybe. All this tells us is that you're working off the basis of unfounded and narrow-minded ideas. The fact that you have false perceptions and a blinkered outlook needn't apply to anybody with a bit more sense.
I don't have to think Tezuka "sucks" to think that Moore or Los Bros Hernandez or Eisner are also great. It's like saying that in order to believe that non-French cheese is as good as French cheese (and essentially the same thing), you must be prepared to say that emmental cheese is terrible. Again, it's a patently ludicrous argument - and further evidence that you aren't debating in good faith. --- Having got that out of my system, I agree with SharinganEye. None of us is gaining anything from going around and around in circles knocking down the same flawed arguments from our friendly neighbourhood troll (and his sidekick, America's Greatest Mind) over and over again, ad infinitum. Presuming that I can restrain myself from making the occasional sarcastic rejoinder, I'm out of here until such a time as KyuuA4 makes good on his promise to provide his criteria for what constitutes "manga". |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Chi's Sweet Home is actually kinda nice.  And who the heck is Sazae-san? However. An nice anime girl dressed in a Neko outfit. That's HOT.
Hmm. Me a Japanophile? You own more manga than I do.
Nevertheless, I have yet to develop a fetish for Japanese women. I prefer white chicks.   Nevertheless, I'm actually open to the Japanese. Not the Chinese though -- after seeing the Olympics -- especially their gymnastics team. Ugh. WTF did they do to their faces?!
Though, I wouldn't mind going to Japan to do Mission work.
Simple. I'm not affected by the anal-retentiveness of BOTH groups. Hence, I sit here smack dab in the middle between the two.
And so - I don't see the point of differentiation. We'd save a lot of headache if (when) the two types can be merged. Unfortunately, y'have the "hard core" fans on both ends.
Yea. I try to get away... and make due on what I need to do. But I keep getting reeled back in.
Patience! At this point, I have nothing more than a set of questions -- sketch outline -- and -- a small assortment of random images categorized as "comic" and "manga". For kicks, I'm going to make Moonmintroll wait.
Another big reason why "Manga as Japan-only" is wrong. It's an American convention. The main difference -- it is an American accepted convention -- whereas -- OEL is rejected. NOTE: I reject OEL on the basis that it is single language.
The only thing I ask here is to compare the "best" with the "best". If anything, "reputable" vs "reputable". |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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... Just... look it up or something. If you don't know Sazae-san, you still have a lot of research to do.
I own a lot of manga because I like comics and a lot of comics I like happen to be from Japan. |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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**excuse** (cough) Yet, likewise, I share that sentiment. So, quit dropping down to Xeno's level by calling names. Even me, for the past 10 years, I've looked at far far more manga than comics. The most unfortunate aspect of the English language is the tendency for differentiation whenever convenient -- with complete disregard for inclusion. It's sad. Pathetic. And that's why this argument exists. Now. In another forum, I managed to read this:
I - in fact - cannot say any better than that. The saddest truth is the part I put in bold. What we have here is "OEL" competing simultaneously with the Japanese and Western forms of comic. Nevertheless, when an OEL is looked at, it is not compared to X-Men. Nay, it is being compared to a Japanese comic. In that sense, "OEL" is comparable to manga. Yet, when I say, manga is manga from whatever part of the world it comes from. I follow the same sentiment as the very last paragraph. Someday. Perhaps, this "OEL" medium may be the saving grace between Japanese and American comics -- where the differentiation between the two may no longer exist. As long as that differentiation does exist, then this argument will continue. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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New medium? The medium is comics and is has been around for over a century.
The people who create what you call "OEL manga" are just people who have been influenced more by foreign comics than the generation of comic artists that came before them. The group isn't even big enough to count as a whole generation. Most of them are newbies in the industry, most of them will not make it as comic artists. Most of them are still in the emulation phase, they're not making anything revolutionary. That post gives these young creators way too much credit. Don't put them on a pedestal before they actually accomplisch something. OEL is competing with the Japanese and the American comic industry? They themselves (or rather, their publishers) put them in there. They were too eager to label them in order to be able to ride the manga-wave. These comics are not the way to break down the wall readers seem to feel. If we want to get rid of that wall, we need to stop attachting all sorts of sentiments to the words "manga" and "comic". You're part of the problem if you think Japanese comics are superiour to other comics. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Alrighty. I don't think I need to tell you guys that this thread is generating a lot of reports. We've seen insults and aggressive comments quite a bit so far, and at this point it just seems to be people arguing that others opinions are wrong and dancing around a magical circle that is never ever ever ever going to end. So I'm going to be honest and just say we're on thin ice here, and we're prepared to end the thread by locking it if it gets any further out of hand.
There is some civil discussion here, which is the only reason the thread is still alive. Insults and disrespect towards others opinions really needs to stop. Not to mention that if people just want to argue over the rights and wrongs of peoples opinions that are based on definitions that are 100% subjective, then this is never going to stop and we're just going to have a lot of angry, frustrated users. There comes a point that you just need to agree to disagree, especially when it comes down to definitions and subject matter like this, that are pretty much completely up to each individuals interpretation. |
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mdo7
 Posts: 6284 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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You're right, there are some agreements and disagreements. But it got out of control because some people don't accept the true fact. There's no such thing as wrong opinion (Yes SharinganEyes, does that mean if somebody said republican is better, does that mean you can beat him up because he's making a opinion that you think is wrong and democrats are right). Keoyn, I recommend we close this topic, it's not getting us anywhere. Keoyn, I also want to request that all flame war be eliminated in this anime/manga community. I find all flame war stupid and pointless. Xenos,so what if you don't like the term "OEL manga", don't take it out to the world and prove that you're right. Not all people agree with one another unless it's a real fact not a debatable topic. Xenos, you're a comic book fan at heart right. I grew up with DC and Marvel just like you. I love superheroes as much as you do, and I love manga and manga-style art. But this is my last weapon on you. Do you know when Marvel Comic was formed? 1939 (it was then called Timely comic), DC was made in 1934 (as National Allied Publications) . Why did Marvel formed after DC was made? It was because of Superman and Batman that made superhero popular and Marvel decided to cash in on the sucess, Marvel created some superheroes that was somewhat original but emulating the superheroes that DC did. Applying your logics about OEL manga is dirty cheap marketing on manga, are you saying that Marvel sucks because they are using the same marketing schemes for superheroes comic and DC should do the superheroes not Marvel? Saying OEL manga is a cheap marketing on Japanese manga is just like saying that Marvel is doing cheap marketing by creating superheroes that emulate DC Comic superheroes. DC Comic also emulate some Marvel superheroes For example: -Static Shock, didn't some of the villains and heroes seem to be a lot like Marvel's X-men, and Fantastic Four and other villains. Doesn't the teen getting superpower remind you of X-men. (example: like Hot Streak reminds me a lot like X-men's Pyro and Fantastic Four's Johnny Storm. A villain in Static Shock named Hyde is too similar to Rhino. I believe Ragtag, another villain in Static Shock copied off X-men'sRogue. I also believe that a villain turned hero named Rubber-band man emulate Mr. Fantastic) -Marvel's Hawkeye reminds me too much of DC's Green Arrow. -Marvel's Deadpool share too much similarity with DC's Deadstroke (aka Slade in Teen Titans series, A little note, Deadstroke was created before Deadpool) -Marvel's Kingpin looks like a blatant copy off of DC's Lex Luthor. -Arcade from Marvel reminds me too much of DC's Toyman but Arcade use arcade game where Toyman use toys. -Marvel's Dr. Strange is probably Marvel's clone to DC's Dr. Fate (Dr fate came out first then Dr Strange) Even if Marvel did emulate and probably copied-off superheroes. Marvel still had a sucessful marketing, why because of the marketing schemes. Compare that to the OEL manga marketing, as I said if you say OEL manga is just cheap marketing schemes to cash in on Japanese manga. You're saying that Marvel Comic, Dark Horse and other comic book company emulate superheroes and it's cheap marketing schemes. If you're bashing Tokyopop, then you're bashing Marvel because they're emulating things and use cheap marketing to cash in on that fad. Marvel did a lot of good job from not only doing superheroes, but doing other genres like romance (Marvel comic had a lot of influences in Japan), Fantasy, Horror, Western, and other. Sometime I think Marvel should have come up with the Harem, Ecchi, Sports, Shonen-Ai/Yaoi, Shojo-Ai/Yuri genre, it could have makes American Comic book more intresting, they could have come up with Fruit Baskets and Cowboy Bebop if Comic code authority hadn't violate the 1st amendment . Anyway, Xenos (that includes you SharinganEyes and Moomintroll), don't try that "you're confusing genre with medium" crap on me. I want you to forget Medium and genre. I want you to look at what Marvel did, and compare to what OEL manga is doing. If Marvel can manage to be sucessful by emulation and this so-called "Cheap marketing". What do you think OEL manga is doing?? Speaking of Marvel, have you been reading about this: animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-24/madhouse-to-create-4-anime-with-marvel-comic-heroes animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-25/iron-man-wolverine-in-marvel-madhouse-1st-tv-anime First it was the upcoming Marvel OEL manga. Then DC team up with anime studio to do Batman: Gotham Knights. Now look what's happening to Marvel superheroes, they're becoming anime. What do you call that Cheap marketing because anime is becoming a fad now. What's next: -Superman anime with character design by Akira Toriyama. -Frank Miller and Shinichiro Wantanabe team up and do a Sin City anime (I've encountered a lot of people who would love to see a Sin City anime/manga) -Yoshiyuki Tomino doing The Punisher anime with dark and gritty images.
Yes all Stereotype=Bad. So the only stereotype you accept is the manga should be made in Japan and nowhere else.
A little off topic, but Bush was not a great president (he turn down a medical insurance act that could help children). About torturing stuff, I would use anime to toture anime hater and racist people if I wanted information out of them. I oughta recommend this mind torture to FBI if they want to torture KKK members by using anime as a tool.
I'll still buy a OEL manga even if the creator don't call it manga. I'll even buy that upcoming X-men, WOlverine OEL manga to support OEL manga market and my love of Marvel comic.
Oh really, so why does ANN have a Australian section? On the news section of ANN, I guess you never seen ANN talking about anime-related stuff in another country like for example: [url]animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2006-06-04/australia-and-new-zealand-join-tokyopop's-global-manga-revolution[/url] So that's talking about USA only. animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-03/brazilian-team-wins-2008-world-cosplay-summit So that's talking about America, it looks like it talking about Brazil. OMG, this is American web site that should be talking about American stuff and things related to anime/manga is becoming international. So now ANN is becoming like CNN for anime/manga. Keoyn, Close this topic if no one is convinced of me, KyuuA4, or Da Gamers Elite. We can't come to a agreement. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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I understand a lock is inevitable, but could you want until Kyuu has posted his analysis of manga? @ mdo7, superhero comics are a genre. It idea behind it is pretty clear, it's a story about super heroes who fight against super villains. Some stories are more realistic than others, some go beyond the good vs evil thing, some don't, but as a genre they are easily defined. (And I'll say this again, American comics are more than just superhero comics, especially when you go back to the time before the CCA castrated the industry.) Manga was, until Tokyopop and some other people hijacked the word, essentially the entire Japanese comic industry. You can't really emulate something that can be divided in so many genres and artstyles. The people who draw what you call OEL manga were often influenced a handful of comic creators, not the whole Japanese comic industry. Emulation is not a bad thing, in the beginning atleast, but these new creators still need to grow as artists. I think you'll restrict them if you stick the manga label on them. Something I've noticed is that many people now start out with reading almost nothing but manga, but that they are exposed to the comic industry as a whole when they start creating comics of their own. They'll be influenced and inspired by European and American artists who don't draw in a stereotyped mangastyle. But if we've already put them in the manga-box, they'll have a hard time to get out of it, because people expect them to draw in "manga style". |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Even MDO had to convince me to tone that down.
Do me a favor and count the number of anime/manga conventions globally compared to comic conventions. That's due to the power of language. If manga happens to be inferior to comics elsewhere, I doubt we'd even allow a separate word to describe it. Heck, manga itself probably would not have expanded beyond Japan. Nobody likes a loser after all. This "manga wave" (mentioned in the next part) would not have been possible if manga happened to be mediocre. No need to remind me. Plenty of manga happen to be outright crappy; it's just that we're shielded from it because few would bring that material over. In terms of numbers of great manga vs great comics -- great manga outnumbers great comics. Yes, in this equation, "quality" is equal. Therefore, quantity factors next. We can probably compare the likes of Superman to any Shounen manga; and these aren't even that great.
I'll say it before; and I'll say it again. It's the trend of marketing to do these things. If you haven't tried a sales job - you should do so. Marketers will do anything - even sell their own parents (maybe) - to sell a product. So, whatever sentiment regarding manga and comics mean so little to them. It just happens that manga IS a huge wave. Like a surfer, it is a good idea to ride it. Miss a wave, who knows where's the next one - or - will it be bigger? I dunno. Then, finally. The other part about "OEL manga" being "manga" as opposed to "comic". We - you and me - tend to compare "OEL manga" with "manga". As far as the OEL is concerned, manga is used as a litmus test as far as quality is concerned. When someone says, "OEL manga sucks" or "OEL manga lacks quality"... what's it being compared to? X-Men, or Fruits Basket? In short, "OEL manga" (even if you call it something else) is comparable to Japanese manga -- more so than American comics. Therefore, it is manga. Yet, the "OEL" part had to come in because few would accept the idea of manga produced outside Japan.
This points out the trend made in various editorials years ago: Manga's "influence" is that predominant. "Influence" behaves like a pendulum, and it's swinging our way now. If it is enough to alter the American comic industry, then it is enough to claim that manga is "superior". I doubt any company would change their ways -- for fun. It's a market effect.
It's a reasonable expectation because it is what readers demand. Yet, instead of trying to mimic Japanese story telling, I'd like some good wholesome American (or European) stories ported into the manga visual format. That would be a nice change of pace from the multitude of Japanese based stories in manga format.
Yea, cheap shot for me to put some last words prior. But hey, the rest of y'all, go ahead.  In the meantime, I have a little "project" by which I'll be wasting my time on.
On that note - I motion that we have this thread locked Right Now. Anyone second? Last edited by KyuuA4 on Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Murasakisuishou
 Posts: 1469 Location: NE Ohio |
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Hold on, there, I'd really like to see that definition of manga you promised us all first. At any rate, I think the rest of us are done until you step up and tell us all what manga is, so just spit it out already. We have very neatly layed out our terms, and you could at least show us the same courtesy. |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Besides, we could use a new thread. Someday. 
Well, if there's one thing certain -- I haven't backed down from my stance for a year or two now. So, I'm not chickening out. If that's what you think. Yet, times like this makes me wish I can write a book.
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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As in popularity equals superiority? That's very superficial. Besides, I think the comic conventions will win. Both America and Europe have very few manga conventions, most conventions are anime conventions with some manga and games for added flavour. The comic conventions I've seen cover comics from all over the world, but always put an emphasis on comics made in the country the convention is held in. Aside from one manga convention in the US (and perhaps yaoi con...) I can't think of any manga conventions outside of Japan. In Japan there are many events, but that is mostly because their comic industry is gigantic. I've never been to a Japanese comic convention, so I don't know how and if European and American comics are presented there. Have you been to Japanese comic conventions? If so, please share your experiences.
Manga is not inferior or superiour, it's just different. The Japanese comic industry gave life to some comics European and American creators never thought of, but the same can be said about the European and American comic industries. Publisher simply imported some new flavours, but which is better, chocolate or strawberry, is up to individual preferences. And how do you know great manga outnumber great comics? Did you actually count them? How did you grade them?
Tokyopop picked up a lot of creators that weren't ripe for picking yet. They used an agressive marketing campaign to market their often subpar material, failed and dropped most artists like bricks. Yeah, really amazing marketing there.
Riding a huge wave when you're a bad surfer is a bad idea. In case you haven't noticed, I'll point it out again. Tokyopop is doing really bad right now. Not only have they dropped pratically all "OEL manga creators" (well, exept for DJ Milky, because it can be awfully difficult to get rid of your own boss) together with the buzzword, they're even canceling Japanese series left and right.
You don't get it. When we compare manga-influenced-comics to manga, it's because th creators were heavily influenced by Japanese comic artists. We compare things because they look similar, but the mistake many people make is assuming Japanese comics have an overlapping style. They don't recognise mangaka as individual creators, they have a stereotypical view of the Japanese comic industry. If you think American comics are limited to superhero stories, you also basing your view on stereotypes.
They're being compared to good comics. Certain "OEL manga" aren't bad because they aren't as good as Fruits Basket, they're bad, because they're bad. Good comics often have an universal appeal, even when they appear grounded in one culture. Town of Evening Calm, Country of Cherry Blossoms wasn nomited in for two categories for the Eisners this year. The first one was Best Short Story the second one Best US edition of International Material. It was competing with comics from the rest of the world! The same goes for Monster, which was running for a Best Continuing Series award.
I doubt art abides to natural selection. Sometimes people want something exotic, especially when they have become bored with the local dishes.
If you truely like comics, you should give them some room to develop themselves. If creators only draw what their audience wants them to draw, we'll end up with countless Shounen Jump-type series. Authors will be encouraged to create series that can run for a long time, most series will be cancelled before completion and most of the series that are allowed to stay will overstay their welcome.
But what is the manga format? We're still waiting for the definition. I certainly hope you aren't talking about giving Tintin big eyes, an even bigger weapon and enough speedlines to cover half a page.
Nope, you're just looking for an exit, because we still want that definition you promised us. |
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