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Deadwing



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 174
Location: North Augusta, SC
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:06 pm Reply with quote
superdry wrote:
Except they aren't, maybe the North American market in a way, but not the whole Western market. Aniplex USA has a mix of different releases at different price points, not everything is super expensive. More expensive than what Funi and Sentai release, sure, but it's not that crazy expensive. Besides Madoka, their other licensed properties are comparable to what NISA released in terms of price.

If Aniplex was really trying to force the western market to accept Japanese pricing, why is Kaze France releasing rather affordable boxsets for both KnK and Fate/Zero on blu-ray? Also, do realize that Taiwanese fans had to pay the same premium JP price for Fate/Zero Part 1 (Taiwan is also region A and it's a rather large market outside of Japan).

What do you suppose the odds are of an affordable BD set for KnK and Fate/Zero? While I wouldn't expect one day and date of the release of the DVD set (this fall for KnK, maybe sometime next year for F/Z), maybe something release one or two quarters later. You have to think that most everyone in Japan who really wanted these expensive special editions would have bought a copy within a year or two after release, after which point fears of reverse exportation of a less expensive N. American BD set (something closer in price to their releases of Baccano and Read or Die) would be unfounded. I really want these two titles to get an affordable BD release, as I'm fully invested in Blu-ray now (saw it properly at my parent's Christmas of 2010, was blown away by how nice it looked, bought my own player last month and have continued to be amazed). If BD is an option I won't even touch the DVD version. It costs a bit more than DVD, but damn if it isn't totally worth it.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:03 pm Reply with quote
The Japanese companies know that enough western fans will buy the expensive sets for popular series for it to be a profitable venture. Profitable and with no risk to losing domestic Japanese sales. For high caliber titles, I would expect to see this happen more and more often, and there's really not much we can do. We certainly can't stop those people from buying those sets and showing that it works, it's their money.

On the opposite end, to defend bargain bin prices, some fans don't consider anime an exotic luxury anymore. We have fansubs, legal streams, disc rentals, and cheap DVD sets. The importance of the value of the show itself on a per episode basis has fallen. I can see why premium Japanese prices work, but I'm still a bargain hunter with patience. Even if you disagree, it's hard to ignore when boxsets for live-action TV series suddenly drop to $19.99 for an entire season, or less. I know the markets function differently, but that ties back into anime no longer being this rare or special item. Anime is mundane and common.
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superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:23 am Reply with quote
Deadwing wrote:

What do you suppose the odds are of an affordable BD set for KnK and Fate/Zero? While I wouldn't expect one day and date of the release of the DVD set (this fall for KnK, maybe sometime next year for F/Z), maybe something release one or two quarters later.


I don't want to say never, but I want to say not anytime soon even though the KnK BD boxset in Japan is pretty much sold out (if Amazon doesn't carry it, there is a good chance it's sold out on the wholesale level). Not sure if a reprint is going to happen (if so, makes sense that NA is getting a DVD release in Fall). With Fate/Zero, boxset 2 is not even out yet and that's going to be an expensive import for NA buyers - so, again, not any time soon. Also, DVDs for Fate/Zero is only available for the rental market in Japan. The release strategy for that show is different and an exception to the rule in Japan.

walw6pK4Alo wrote:
The Japanese companies know that enough western fans will buy the expensive sets for popular series for it to be a profitable venture. Profitable and with no risk to losing domestic Japanese sales. For high caliber titles, I would expect to see this happen more and more often, and there's really not much we can do. We certainly can't stop those people from buying those sets and showing that it works, it's their money.


We have slowly been seeing more and more Japanese releases have English subtitles on them - even shows that aren't even licensed for disc release (Dog Days and the Nanoha movie come to mind). So, yea, the Japanese do know or should know that people will spend the money on their releases.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:08 am Reply with quote
Deadwing wrote:

What do you suppose the odds are of an affordable BD set for KnK and Fate/Zero? While I wouldn't expect one day and date of the release of the DVD set (this fall for KnK, maybe sometime next year for F/Z), maybe something release one or two quarters later. You have to think that most everyone in Japan who really wanted these expensive special editions would have bought a copy within a year or two after release, after which point fears of reverse exportation of a less expensive N. American BD set (something closer in price to their releases of Baccano and Read or Die) would be unfounded.


Fear of reverse import unfounded? On that part, I have to disagree with you. Some Japanese buyers are starting to buy Anime Blu ray from US. I'm not sure if they're are growing, but they do buy US anime BD's.

Yahoo Japan auction has bidders bidding on Funimation BD of Eden of the East movies and NISA's Anohana BD. On Amazon Japan, people bought various Funimation BD's and giving them 5 star rating for video quality and other aspects.
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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:24 am Reply with quote
I believe it's possible to get hard evidence that reverse importation of US-priced Blurays is occurring and GROWING in size.

The question that is much more difficult to determine, however, is if these reverse imports are cannibalizing sales or whether these are NEW purchases that wouldn't have been made otherwise.

Heck I reverse imported a bunch of sets myself when I was at Anime Expo this year. Hell if I'm paying Japanese prices for blurays (despite living in Japan and speaking Japanese).
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BonusStage



Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:26 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
How to integrate real-world issues into normal comic content. To be sure, manga does deal with real-world issues, but that usually only happens in titles specifically made for that purpose. While it's far from pervasive in mainstream American comics, it isn't unusual to see difficult social issues brought up and dealt with head-on in super-hero titles. Racism, religious persecution, teen suicide, bullying, drug use, homophobia, confusion about sexual orientation, terrorism, genocide, slavery, sexual exploitation, child abuse - major mainstream American super-hero comic books have dealt with all of them at one time or another while still telling their regular stories (or, in some cases, have made them part of their regular stories). I can think of a couple of anime which address some of these issues (Shigofumi most immediately jumps to mind), but if there are manga titles which integrate these elements into their regular content then I apparently haven't seen them. To use a specific example, is there anything in manga that does anything close to what X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills does?


there's tons of manga which deal with this stuff. when it's relevant. Japan doesn't have a drug problem like America does, so drug portrayal will be limited though. it's not a flaw any more than there's not enough American comics about public bathhouses. I dunno what you mean by 'regular stories'. is X-men a regular story to you? I always found it weird how they try to do a racism angle, yet it takes palce in a universe where superheroes are loved. so I guess Spider-Man is cool but not Wolverine. Seems like it diminishes the message when you have contradictions like that, and of course, because there can't be any real development or ending to it since X-men will go on until the end of time. a series tailored to be about it seems better, or at least a non superhero comic.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1727
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:28 am Reply with quote
Bonus/Titan, I assume regular stories means the usual superhero stories. So, for example, it would be interesting to see Naruto still going about its storyline while adding some of those themes of genocide, terrorism, etc. More "meaty" than a bathhouse thing. I would think it would help expand storyline possibilities to categories like shounen and magical girl shows. I don't think you have to be an expert on the subjects of those listed, as we have plenty of media that doesn't have those things 100% accurate, but still manages to tell a nice story or help character development.

As for the typical "another universe so no real development," it can still have a good presentation with the subject matter. You don't have to stick it to one thing. If an anime decided to do a remake, they can always go through with this route and shouldn't harm how one views the older series.
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Deadwing



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 174
Location: North Augusta, SC
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:36 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
Fear of reverse import unfounded? On that part, I have to disagree with you. Some Japanese buyers are starting to buy Anime Blu ray from US. I'm not sure if they're are growing, but they do buy US anime BD's.

Yahoo Japan auction has bidders bidding on Funimation BD of Eden of the East movies and NISA's Anohana BD. On Amazon Japan, people bought various Funimation BD's and giving them 5 star rating for video quality and other aspects.

Did you miss the part where I said "after a year or two"? Most of the sales of a entertainment product typically happen within the first year of release, and many of those within the first couple of months. For example, Avatar has sold over 10 million DVDs, but at least half of those were sold in the first month after release; similarly, Modern Warfare 3 sold around half of its 26 million copies sold to date in the first week alone. Most anime DVD & BD releases (the latter more pertinent since we share the same BD region as Japan) we get come a number of months, perhaps even a year or two, after the initial Japanese release, plenty of time for a plurality if not majority of all short-term sales to occur. That we get a fair number of BD releases at all tells us that, for the most part, reverse exportation isn't considered a big deal after a while. There comes a point where Aniplex has got to do like every other distro and cave in and just let there be a normal BD set of KnK in N. America. It's been a year and a half since the initial LE BD box went on sale, and as far as I know it's OOP. Yeah, they might do a reprint, but most everyone who wanted one and could afford it has probably bought one. Likewise, since you use the show as an example of Japanese fans reverse importing, it's been over a year since AnoHana's first Blu-ray release in Japan, and about five months since the most recent re-release (some big fancy box set). We're just now getting a NA release of the show on BD (a similar set to the original Japanese BD release). Whatever reverse importation that goes on now will likely have minimal impact on long-term sales of that series. Any fears that reverse importation of American BDs will cannibalize sales of Japanese BDs are likely unfounded due to the large time gap in release. Sure, there are probably a number of Japanese anime fans who don't like having to pay the inflated price points common in Japan and thus might wait months or years for a cheaper import (because not all anime fans, Japanese or not, are willing to pay several hundred dollars/several tens of thousands of yen just to own a show they like on home video), but that's something that's going to happen in an increasingly globalized market and access to international online retail. I think that an affordable BD release of KnK coming out, say, 3 to 6 months after the upcoming DVD set is more than within reason, and whatever reverse importation of that goes on will have negligible impact on long-term sales of the title.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:42 pm Reply with quote
Reverse importation is a serious problem, whether its a year or two later or not. People knew that there were going to be dirt cheap BDs coming out, so they'd wait to buy the series when they are cheaper... and now companies want to nip that in the bud. I can't blame them.
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superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 1309
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:23 pm Reply with quote
Deadwing wrote:
Likewise, since you use the show as an example of Japanese fans reverse importing, it's been over a year since AnoHana's first Blu-ray release in Japan, and about five months since the most recent re-release (some big fancy box set).


Actually, the series was originally released as singles and a boxset generally doesn't come out so fast. The "re-release" you're linking to is actually not a BD boxset, but a fancy limited edition for a live event. A BD boxset for a 1-cour series will never have an MSRP that low.

Quote:

Whatever reverse importation that goes on now will likely have minimal impact on long-term sales of that series. Any fears that reverse importation of American BDs will cannibalize sales of Japanese BDs are likely unfounded due to the large time gap in release.


That is also unfounded. We, as consumers, just don't know how much an effect reverse importation truly has on the Japanese market. According to Justin Sevakis's article on the anime industry, a lot of shows will make their money back over time (this includes this one, two year period you talk about). Does a company want to lose on these potential sales to cheaper imports? I want to say no. But....

I've asked this question before, but it seems to have no answer unless one can really get numbers and crunch them: Does the money made from licensing/royalties to R1 companies outweigh the money lost to reverse importation?
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:05 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
Reverse importation is a serious problem, whether its a year or two later or not. People knew that there were going to be dirt cheap BDs coming out, so they'd wait to buy the series when they are cheaper... and now companies want to nip that in the bud. I can't blame them.


And with companies rushing to license shows for home video as soon as the season begins, those Japanese fans now don't have to worry on whether it'll be picked up or not, leaving them to only have their domestic video as an option. Scenarios like FUNi grabbing Michiko to Hatchin and releasing that on BD several years later won't contribute much to the issue, but say for something newer like Jormungand, they could probably muster their patience and wait for the bargain bin R1 MSRP. The question is to the limit of how long one is going to wait, and if the release is up to their standards. Do they need it now for $299.99, or can they wait 1-2 years for $49.99? You've already seen the show, are you going to withhold your purchase for what's guaranteed to come out magnitudes cheaper?

One thing is certain, BluRay will never have simultaneous releases unless their prices match the Japanese, or they're crippled in a way that the Japanese won't want them.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm Reply with quote
I'm lucky enough to have a certain amount of disposable income that enables me to afford to buy a lot of anime. Even so, there is a point where I am not willing to spend over a certain amount on a show that I have not already seen, or that isn't an established favorite.

Sure I could probably afford Fate/Zero, and I do like the show. But what they are asking for it is way beyond what I am willing to spend on the show in relation to how much I enjoyed it. I pretty much agree with deadwing on this. I enjoyed Fate/Zero about $120 - $150 worth. That is the upper tier of what I would be willing to pay. That for all 26 episodes.

I can only think of about 3 unlicensed shows that I would spend $400 for. So yes, if those prices for anime became the norm, it would seriously limit my purchases, probably to one or maybe two shows a year. I can only think of 1 to maybe 3 shows in a year's time that represent enough sentimental and re-watch value from me to make it worth that kind of expense.

re; the "True Fan" nonsense:

If someone is trying to persuade me over to their POV, accusing me of not being a "true fan" will instantly make me dismissive of just about everything they have to say. I can say this because I have been in a few discussions on this forum where the person who I was debating was able to persuade me to change my opinion. Notice I said "persuade". They were able to do this by presenting their opinion in a logical way, never accusatory or insulting, and presenting and insightful and sympathetic argument. One person in particular (thank you, Lord Geo, even though you probably won't see this...) was able to convince me to re-evaluate my attitude about how I was supporting the industry. Discussions like that are what make the fandom worthwhile and rewarding for me.
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YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 1061
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:50 pm Reply with quote
SereneChaos, this is a small start

Image Comics previews

Also, if you have time for it, Newsarama and ComicBookResources regularly have previews of all sorts of comics.

I know that for someone who has an open mind to American comics, but doesn't know where to start, you feel overwhelmed. I blame the comics companies for some of that.


Last edited by YotaruVegeta on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TarouSatomi



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:50 pm Reply with quote
Deadwing wrote:

But asking for anything less than $5/ep is rather absurd.

People said the same thing about iTunes $0.99/song model, and for that matter, most of Steam's sales. The much lower costs put the products into impulse buy range and that changes the market dramatically. (Sources indicate Valve et al found that cutting prices in half didn't lead to x2 sales, but more like x10 or higher sales.)


Deadwing wrote:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' inflation calculator, $30 ten years ago (when anime on DVD was reaching its absolute peak in terms of sales) was equal to about $38 in 2012 dollars.


You're actually understating this Very Happy

The BLS numbers are now pretty political, unreliable, and heavily skewed downward (it makes the GDP look higher = fewer official recessions, smaller COLA payouts, etc). Those 30 "2000 dollars" are more like $80 now. Anime has gotten A LOT cheaper when looking at the cost of many other commodities in the same time frame.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:14 am Reply with quote
The BLS price-inflation statistics have been gamed for years - at one point medical costs were included, for example.
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