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I'm not going to bash 4Kids, but I feel they're making a big mistake by not releasing some of their shows uncut and in Japanese on DVD or whatever, they're losing quite a bit by not catoring to the hidden market. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants Ojamajo Doremi or Pretty Cure on DVD, I haven't seen either in the original Japanese, and I would like to legally, as opposed to buying bootlegs from wherever.

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*shakes head*

4Kids isn't here to please anyone. They are not here to cater to the world, they'd rather inforce their will on it. Since 1998, that strategy has worked fairly nicely; now 4Kids is experiencing a change in attitudes regarding what they're licensing.

Their decreased profits are not entirely due to their dubbing; overall, basic cable Saturday Morning Cartoon blocks have been suffering due to competition from Cartoon Network; not only does CN's nightly broadcast earn a large attendance, their Saturday Morning programming reaches some ears as well.

When 4Kids was at its peak, no other network had anything like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh except FoxKids with Digimon; now that interest in those types of shows has dimmed, 4Kids is facing pressure from other fronts like Toonami, which has always boasted of a strong action block all durin 4Kids' reign over television.

It's not the selection of shows, or even the demographics, either; it's brandname and time. One Piece is performing on Toonami almost as well as Naruto, but had horrible ratings on 4Kids.tv. This is in spite of the dub!

The fundamental problem with everyone I've debated anywhere is that people are not willing to accept that there could be multiple factors involved in some sort of political, economic, social or media phenomenon. One result does not imply one cause!

The US Federal Government had to commission an independent counsel to investiate the circumstances leading up the the 11 September 2001 attacks; the commission filled an entire book wit analysis of those circumstances!

I'm tired of assaulting this topic, as I'm only addressing the same points and my arguments are landing on deaf ears. I would advise you lot to forgo your biases when evaluating phenomenon, as they get in the way to understanding the truth of matters; consider them not extensions of ego, but commodities that can be freely traded away.

*Sigh*

Well for every 4kids hater there is a lover
I suppose...

But you know the message is not going anywhere no matter how much you try to defend what others are trying to attack. 4kids profits have dropped. Anime fans are happy. Deal with it.

Well, he does have somewhat of a point even if I'm not one to defend 4Kids myself. He makes a valid argument and it is falling on deaf ears as no one is really addressing his comments, simply blasting him for loving 4Kids and ending it there.

[quote="Yoda117"]

Chrono Jr wrote:

tidusora wrote:

Malintex Terek wrote:

Instead of licensing anime, why don't they just stick to producing american cartoons? Why get anime, and make them even worse, with the exception of Ultimate Muscle.

Because they are too busy raping the Anime market. It cost to make origional animation, hiring voices, production cost, writers ect. Anime is cheap cause all you have to do is hire voice actors, translators, and anime is almost always a hit with children. Lighting in a bottle my friends! 4Kids is just one of those big coporate machines that will do whatever it take to make a buck, even ignore the once who truely care what happens to a product.

Okay, you're really liberal with the use of the term "rape", which really doesn't describe the situation. Check the definition and try again.

Atleast ADV and FUNimation are true to the soucre material. FUNimation does edit stuff out for tv, but they also counter that by releasing two version of the anime on DVD, one edited, one uncut, and ask for ADV, I've never seen them edit anything in they're properties. Don't get me wrong, sometimes edits are good, they can bring a good anime to the masses and it can gain even more popularity, but 4kids just does a horrible job non the less. They don't even release uncut versions of they're properties, only Yu-Gi-Oh! and Shaman King, even then they only got up to three volumes before quiting. Ask for fansubs, Some are harder to find than others expecially for the older series and you have no choice but to watch the US version. As I said before, I don't mind edits, I know that they are nessercary sometimes, I just don't like unnessercary edits that completely changes the story, or just makes no sence. If they can't stay true to the original story, then they should just hand One Piece and Shaman King to FUNimation or someone and take more kid friendly material like Hamtaro, Keroro, Prince Of Tennis, and maybe adapting video games into series like Anima crossing and Nintendogs lol. Seriously, they need to take properties they can handel or just do original cartoons.

Chrono Jr wrote:

If they can't stay true to the original story, then they should just hand One Piece and Shaman King to FUNimation or someone and take more kid friendly material like Hamtaro, Keroro, Prince Of Tennis

But they'll still find stuff to edit and change, like fantasy violence and Japanese names.

And Prince of Tennis would become Tennis Master or something stupid like that. Rolling Eyes

Also, Keroro Gunso would lose all the Gundam references because 4Kids' demographic doesn't watch Gundam and Gundams have... OMG!.... guns. I will NOT tolerate seeing a Gundam model holding a Super Soaker.

Chrono Jr wrote:

maybe adapting video games into series like Anima crossing and Nintendogs lol.

They can't make series based on games that aren't theirs.

Wow, leave the internet, for half a day, and it turns into 6 pages. Of course I half expected that. I am not obviously going to go point by point with what has been said. But this is not the end of the world for 4kids, in fact its not really that bad of news. They bacically have broke even, and it appears if anything that this trend will be decided on next quarters report.

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Kahn cited $1.7 million in severance costs as part of the $2.1 million increase in "general and administrative expenses" since Q2 2005.

Now I will bet money that this severance cost was from the breaking off of there relationship with Summit. Last quarter they made 1.5 million. This quarter the made 34,000, add on the cost of severance and it looks like they really made at least as much as they did last quarter. But the fees killed them.

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Kahn also cited 4Kids's new strategy of owning a property rather than licensing it, which he said hurt short-term profits this quarter.

Yeah I bet the are spending money developing Chaotic.

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He further emphasized that 4Kids has no long term debt and retains $113.5 million "in the bank."

I know many of you took this a him shoving his power in your face, but not haveing any debt is very important. And having enough money "in the bank" to run your company for 6 strait quarters with zero income is nothing to laugh at.

True, you got a point there.

Chrono Jr wrote:

Atleast ADV and FUNimation are true to the soucre material. FUNimation does edit stuff out for tv, but they also counter that by releasing two version of the anime on DVD, one edited, one uncut, and ask for ADV, I've never seen them edit anything in they're properties.

Okay, I don't see how this correlates to the quoted text that I wrote, but I'll take a stab at it.

- Ghost Stories: dialogue is heavily edited, despite it being (IMO) an amusing series

- Many of ADV's early titles were taken from the bin of "Macek Maulings" (Streamline, etc.) and the series sold were the exact same edits. Macek himself now works as an exec for ADV, despite being known as one of the worst of the "hack and slash" editors of anime (Japanimation was the term used until the early 90s) from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. If memory serves correctly, Mecha Press did an article on his exploits right before they went under.

- DBZ DVDs were not originally uncut. It took some time (and a lot of complaints from impatient fans) before Funimation released them.

- I don't have the first DVD of Desert Punk, so someone needs to confirm this one, but the first eps is edited due to to vulgarity. In this case, Funimation did the right thing by putting the uncut eps in the extras section (BTW: this is based on a screener seen a few months back, and may not be accurate).

Point is that, yes other companies have done this. Many have learned to target one demographic, whereas others prefer a younger crowd. Them's the breaks.

And no, this has nothing to do with original post Smile

This has been rather amusing, seems just mentioning 4Kids lights a fire. Regardless, a couple of hundred million in cash, owning property rather than lease (this might reflect that most authors/owners don’t wish their work to be slaughter like 4kids can do to a work, i.e. One Piece) As pointed out, it may be that 4Kids is tuned into their market. Focused on that, they don’t give a flip about the anime industry as a whole. Animaniacs barking at them is of little concern to them.

td99

Keonyn wrote:

Well, he does have somewhat of a point even if I'm not one to defend 4Kids myself. He makes a valid argument and it is falling on deaf ears as no one is really addressing his comments, simply blasting him for loving 4Kids and ending it there.

that's not completely true. many have been responding directly point by point.

i, however, will go back to the main point. as much as this has devolved into a for/against 4kids flamewar, I believe the original post that started this was Terek's:

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naruto fan 09812 wrote:
Finally,the evil 4kids empire is going to die.

That's the most outrageously biased otaku comment I have ever read, "naruto fan". You lot are bashing 4Kids solely on the failure of the One Piece dub, and conveniently forget they upgraded the anime market up from a "niche" to "mainstream", paving the way for other companies like FUNimation and Viz to make excellent and high quality shows.

mm, indeed. then we all proceed to explain why or why not 4kids is evil, or whether Al Kahn is a misunderstood hero. While I've made my points on my position in those arguments in previous posts, I think the only relevant point left to make is that, with all things said attempting to "explain" 4kids' actions:

Terek wrote:

More Big News! 4Kids is not an anime company! They could give a rat's arse about anime fans! They're a children's entertainment company, people! -.-

amibite wrote:

But the fact is Pokemon is the biggest contributer to the anime market in America (and a lot of other countries, like France, too). Dragonball Z may have helped anime get a foot in the door; but Pokemon kicked the door down and crashed the party. Without Pokemon anime would be far less mainstream than it is today.

Primus wrote:

4Kids made titles popular that may have never been picked up by other companies.

and then especially these last ones:

bluepita wrote:

Anyone ever consider the idea that perhaps 4Kids isn't really looking to cater to anime fans? That we are not their target demographic? Maybe, just maybe, instead of trying to market to anime fans, they are marketing to children?? Why would they try to make their shows friendlier to us than children, when parents spend a ton more money on merchandise for kids than otaku do? That makes no sense at all.

They don't have to try and promote anime. They don't have to make cuts and dubs to please us. All they have to do is get children interested in their shows and release a related line of toys. The arguement about whether Pokemon made anime mainstream really has nothing to do with the profits of 4Kids, because that is not their goal. The decrease in profits has nothing to do with us.

Terek wrote:

4Kids isn't here to please anyone. They are not here to cater to the world, they'd rather inforce their will on it. Since 1998, that strategy has worked fairly nicely; now 4Kids is experiencing a change in attitudes regarding what they're licensing.
...

I'm tired of assaulting this topic, as I'm only addressing the same points and my arguments are landing on deaf ears. I would advise you lot to forgo your biases when evaluating phenomenon, as they get in the way to understanding the truth of matters; consider them not extensions of ego, but commodities that can be freely traded away.

even IF 4kids can be credited for anime's success, we as anime fans still disagree with their methods. The fact that their goals as a company are not to please anyone but to cater only to children and not give a crap about us...what does that prove? Isn't that all the more reason for us to hate them?

Other anime licensing companies exist out there, but few evoke such ire from the anime community as 4kids does. These companies must undergo the same pressures and expectations as 4kids, yet 4kids commits the most egregious of butchering found.

Contrary to the original post, this is not otaku bias, this is geniune legitimate disagreement with company method and policy, giving the anime community license to truly hate them and wish death upon them

I really do believe that it's possible to satisfy both the target audience and the anime community simultaneously at the same time. Despite what 4kids think, shows such as One Piece would of been more popular if they stayed faithful to the original and I believe they would have garnered more ratings if the original OP's were kept. They would have gotten respect from the anime community instead of boycotts (I know I would have tuned in) and kids would remain oblivious and probably would of cared less so it's a win-win situation. One Piece was already a hit so it wasn't necessary to try and fix something that aint broke. It's not really about who they're trying to cater too, I honestly believe that the majority of fans would have dug the original better but 4kids is so contempt on butchering their shows and sticking with their old policies which is one of the reasons why I feel their profits are plummeting. While other companies are evolving and reinventing themselves 4kids is devolving and stuck in the mindset of 1995. They seriously need to rethink some of their old practices and strategies if they want to survive in this game and not go belly-up like kidsWB.

I'm still not sure about 4Kids going up and down at the same time, but YGO isn't going to save them forever.

Primus wrote:

4Kids made titles popular that may have never been picked up by other companies.

That would be true of everything except One Piece and Tokyo Mew Mew. The last two were just too rich for the other companies to bid on, from what I heard. So you do have a point there, but that doesn't make them a great company.

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They also made compeition in sorts for other Anime Companies to liscene more titles to try to make something with some of 4Kids Titles popularity.

I'm hard pressed to think of an example from the main anime companies. All the copycats came from the usual suspects like Saban.

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Hell if 4Kid's Pokemon wasn't a hit I doubt Nelvana (a Company which doesn't liscene alot of Anime) would liscene Beyblade even though their dub may have questionable edits

Um... Hasbro was more responsible for Beyblade coming to North America than Nelvana. They had cut a deal with Takara to bring Beyblade international, and Harbro needed the anime to hit the market the same time as the toys to sell them. As well, Nelvana brought us Cardcaptor Sakura in 2000. They do have something of a history with anime.

TNaran wrote:

As well, Nelvana brought us Cardcaptor Sakura in 2000. They do have something of a history with anime.

Card Captors, like YGO, and other 4Kids titles, was butchered. The first dub episode was actually like episode 7 in the original. I remember hearing they did this because they wanted an instant ratings success, so skipping those eps let them get it, supposedly.

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4Kids made titles popular that may have never been picked up by other companies.

Thats BS, I'm sure plenty of companies would've also been interested in Pretty Cure and Shaman King. The only thing that may be true for is stuff like Ultimate Muscle and "Fighting Foodons." No big loss.

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