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Ashley Hakker
Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 115
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 Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:13 pm
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| Aquamine-Amarine wrote: | | And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with. |
So, delusional fanboys who claim female characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they are straight get a free pass?
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ArnisEnthusiast
Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:32 pm
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| Break Xerxes wrote: | | The corset scene was from the manga. |
There was a corset fitting part in the manga, yes. But it didn't involve Ciel moaning and shouting Sebastian's name like in the anime. The scenes are completely different.
| Ashley Hakker wrote: |
| Aquamine-Amarine wrote: | | And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with. |
So, delusional fanboys who claim female characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they are straight get a free pass? |
This person was addressing female fans because the quote in the article referenced fujoshi in particular. You're putting words into their mouth. Female fans with that attitude are generally talked about more because male fans that do that are a lot fewer in number and a lot less vocal, though it is just as bad when they do it. A certain DeviantArt carebear comes to mind...
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Agent355
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:59 pm
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| CrowLia wrote: |
| Agent355 wrote: | | I don't read Black Butler, but I gotta give props to a manga-ka who prefers zombies and tanks to romance. Too many boring romance manga, not enough zombie crushing tanks. |
Isn't this exactly the kind of prejudice that she's speaking against? She says romance stories are very energetic and difficult to write, but she's criticizing people who belittle those stories just for being romantic. I'm not a huge fan of the romance genre, but I'm honestly tired of it being treated as second-class or inferior to action or adventure stories. Feels like the all too easy "thing for women bad, thing for men good" |
I was thinking about adding "aimed at women" in my original comment, but I didn't because even though most of Black Butler's fans seem to be women, it's still published in a shonen magazine technically. But I also didn't want to distinguish between shojo/josei boring romances and shonen/seinen boring romances (of which there are many. Nisekoi, anyone?). We get more shojo romances than shojo action comics printed in the U.S, though, and I'd love more variety there.
I interpreted her comments to mean that although she appreciates romances and used to write them herself, Black Butler isn't a romance.
| Joe Mello wrote: | | but even still, there were enough reaction shots of a male-presenting Sebastian to imply that this was totally a gay relationship. No "delusion" required. |
But there's still the "adult-child" relationship issue...
I interpret Sebastian and Ciel's relationship as Alfred/young Bruce Wayne (with suggestive elements added for the fans who want them--the elements are there on purpose, but they're also plausibly deniable for fans who don't. It's a common technique in many manga series.
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PsychoPearl
Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 152
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:05 pm
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Ciel is a child.. There shouldn't be a romance between him and Sebastian in the 1st place..
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Break Xerxes
Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 222
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:08 pm
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| Quote: | |
There was a corset fitting part in the manga, yes. But it didn't involve Ciel moaning and shouting Sebastian's name like in the anime. The scenes are completely different. |
I just checked my copy of the manga volume and there is moaning, it wasn't something that the anime made up.
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Lord Oink
Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:17 pm
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| Ashley Hakker wrote: | |
So, delusional fanboys who claim female characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they are straight get a free pass? |
Does that actually happen? Even among hetero stuff the most vocal people who raged over Naruto hooking up with Hinata over Sakura were women. Fanshipping seems dominated by women. The only time I heard about lesbian shipping drama is from western stuff like Steven Universe and Korra, and it was again dominated by women.
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ArnisEnthusiast
Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:25 pm
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| Break Xerxes wrote: |
| Quote: | |
There was a corset fitting part in the manga, yes. But it didn't involve Ciel moaning and shouting Sebastian's name like in the anime. The scenes are completely different. |
I just checked my copy of the manga volume and there is moaning, it wasn't something that the anime made up. |
I actually just went back to check the manga myself and I was wrong. There was no corset fitting scene in the manga at all. Chapter 7 goes straight from Ciel talking about how he needs to get into the secret party no matter what to Ciel just showing up in the dress. It is something the anime made up.
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CrowLia
Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5505
Location: Mexico
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:35 pm
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| Lord Oink wrote: |
| Ashley Hakker wrote: | |
So, delusional fanboys who claim female characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they are straight get a free pass? |
Does that actually happen? Even among hetero stuff the most vocal people who raged over Naruto hooking up with Hinata over Sakura were women. Fanshipping seems dominated by women. The only time I heard about lesbian shipping drama is from western stuff like Steven Universe and Korra, and it was again dominated by women. |
It's almost like you've never heard of this obscure little show called Love Live. Or really any idol show. Or Sound Euphonium
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Morry
Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Posts: 756
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:43 pm
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I don't much see what this has to do with anything. The author's worked on BL before. She's speaking on her experience.
Black Butler has a lot of BL subtext for but its text is pretty overtly non-romantic. There's no reason to equate the two. She just wants romance, regardless of the partners' genders, to not be stigmatized as for a specific demographic and thus not taken seriously by mainstream fandom.
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harminia
Joined: 24 Aug 2015
Posts: 2004
Location: australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:02 pm
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| ArnisEnthusiast wrote: | | A certain DeviantArt carebear comes to mind... |
ahh, dobby. an example for us all...of what not to be
| Lord Oink wrote: | | Does that actually happen? |
Yes.
Anyway, I'm getting interested in the whole corset scene. Is it in the manga? is it not? Sources are divided. What is the real answer. Whose manga is correct
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Lord Oink
Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:10 pm
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| CrowLia wrote: | |
It's almost like you've never heard of this obscure little show called Love Live. Or really any idol show. Or Sound Euphonium |
I've honestly never seen death threats to the creators being made in those fanbases. Being upset a ship didn't happen is far different than going mental over it.
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ArnisEnthusiast
Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:35 pm
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| harminia wrote: | | Anyway, I'm getting interested in the whole corset scene. Is it in the manga? is it not? Sources are divided. What is the real answer. Whose manga is correct |
Triple checked. I got the chapter wrong. It was in chapter 8. That being said it's really the only major "fanservice" scene in the manga other than a few small things that could be interpreted as whatever. While I was wrong, I stand by my statement that the anime was made with the fujoshi demographic in mind. A good portion of the anime was anime-original and if you take one look at how they frame Sebastian and Ciel's relationship in that portion, especially near the end, it's obvious.
On another note, I think it's important for everyone discussing this to consider that all the bait or subtext or whatever you want to call it is primarily in the beginning of the manga. The series has long since moved past that sort of thing. In my opinion, that makes it clear that this bait/subtext/fanservice isn't nearly as important to the series as many here seem to think it is.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 3017
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:56 pm
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In general, I've found that a lot of "fujoshi see yaoi where there isn't any" and "otaku see yuri where there isn't any" phenomena are really exacerbated by the larger-than-expected number of anime fans who are 100% opposed to even the concept of subtext.
In just the past year or two, I have had conversations with multiple people on the ANN boards who argued in good faith that Revolutionary Girl Utena contained absolutely no gay or lesbian characters. They insisted that if the show didn't explicitly state that Juri was a lesbian, then she was absolutely straight, and nothing anyone could say would convince them otherwise. I don't think this kind of disagreement is all that uncommon on the internet, and I think that it absolutely feeds into the line of thought that "of course people disagree with me when I say that the Black Butler boys are all gay, I can't even get them to agree that Yuri on Ice is a yaoi show!"
Meanwhile, there's no question that the people making stuff like Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle and Seraph of the End understand the nature of their works' appeal. It doesn't take a marketing wizard to understand why Sahara gives Ueno a ring at the end of the A Silent Voice manga. There's an audience for yuri and yaoi subtext, and the industry is all too happy to pander.
| CrowLia wrote: | | It's almost like you've never heard of this obscure little show called Love Live. Or really any idol show. Or Sound Euphonium |
Do an ebay search for official Sound Euphonium posters and magazine inserts, and you'll find a ton of images designed to convince yuri fans to watch the show. That franchise relied on yuri subtext to build its fanbase, and a lot of people were much more upset that the show was marketed to otaku as a yuri subtext show than they were about the characters being straight.
As for idol shows, well... let's just say that Love Live's creators know exactly who their audience is there.
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katscradle
Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 469
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:26 am
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I’ve always felt Black Butler was baity but, in a satire kind of way with regards to many genres. That whole corset scene doesn’t work as a joke both about shotacon stuff or, how cute boy characters seem to frequently end up in dresses for one reason or another unless the audience takes what they’re seeing out of context in the first place. I found that scene rather smart anyway until Funimation apparently decided it was innocuous enough to be used in a trailer for Black Butler. Doing so seems like a double standard while they almost edited content in Dance in the Vampire Bund because of worries about people taking images out of context.
Seriously though, it sounds like Toboso was making a good point about two extreme spectrum's of fandom that gets carried away with the “who would this character sleep with” question. Shipping wars/hate and queer erasure are so tired.
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fencer_x
Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 278
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:37 am
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| Ashley Hakker wrote: |
| Aquamine-Amarine wrote: | | And that's great, if the anime/manga is supposed to be about a gay couple. What I have a problem with is delusional fangirls who claim characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they're straight, or not interested in romance to begin with. |
So, delusional fanboys who claim female characters are gay when canon has made it quite obvious that they are straight get a free pass? |
And apparently characters can’t be bisexual either.
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