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Lin Liren wrote:

Cited Fairy Dance in comparison to Knights Tale merely as a way to point out that yes, it is ALSO an Epic based on Medieval Romantic Notions, where the heroes are ruled by their often illogical but very human passions. (And indeed, both share VERY conservative and traditional stances when it comes to the perceived "proper" roles of Women)

I think what made Fairy Dance such a disappointment was two factors: Asuna was relegated to the damsel in the tower with no agency of her own despite being quite empowered in the Aincrad arc. And while Kirito had overcome adversity through largely his own power and abilities in Aincrad, Fairy Dance sees him literally becoming the "beater" he was unjustly accused of before. He has a glitched max-level character and ends up resorting to hacking the system to reach Asuna. Participation award goes to Oberon for being such a disgusting, lazily written "kicking puppies" villain who is evil just because.

On a certain level I do feel bad for Kawahara. He very much wrote the bulk of SAO a "lifetime ago" as an amateur writer and "edgy teenager". Now here he is at like age 30+ having stuff he wrote when 15-20 turned into big budget animated titles. I'm curious to check out The Isolator, as he also started that one around the same time as SAO but says he's heavily revised it. He's also been doing good work with filling in the Aincrad arc via Progressive, as that has done a decent job of filling in supporting characters.

IMHO the worst thing about SAO is Kirito, as other characters are rarely allowed to have any agency. He's the only one allowed to do or solve any issues. Yet his settings themselves have a lot of potential, as stuff like GGO Alternative was a lot of fun where the supporting cast is allowed to contribute in meaningful ways.

Jonny Mendes wrote:

Afezeria wrote:

What kind of excuse is that? He's basically saying that those rape scenes happens because it was what he was influenced with by reading other works. Perhaps you shouldn't even touch those to begin with? As a writer, he should've knew that you can write a lot more ways to make your bad guys...a bad guys. They don't necessarily need to be a rapist all the time. This rape nonsense has happened like what, three times already in the major SAO entries so far beside in GGO, and even then, it was by a different author? Plus Ordinal Scale was apparently had an original story. Use it once, yeah, there's an understanding to be reached but three times? That's enough. I heard Alicization was a whole lot better but I guess those people forgot to put this detail. I don't really mind such scene by the way, if it was done right but I'll believe Reki Kawahara had done way too much with the element, it's way passed being welcomed.

Is not just Kawahara Reki, Many other Japanese authors of manga and LN use the sexual assault and other kinds of situations were the purity of the female characters are in danger for shock effect.
It probably happens because of the relationship Japanese people have with purity and first times situations (first kiss, first sexual experience). Nothing will make the Japanese audience more mad at the bad guy than somebody else other than the MC be the first.

Is nasty, but is very a effective plot device.

Very much agree with what said on both. One thing for sure agreeing that there are better ways of making a bad guy do bad things. BUT the fact that it is used as a plot device is something that does work. It gives the readers angry that they want to wait for the justice for the bad guy. Keep reading and waiting with the energy of wanting to protect the from characters so they continue on reading. But it's not with Japanese society either. There's a long history of having to see women as "pure" and maybe it's because of their childhood? That they see the female characters (or just females to put it all) the same way of protecting their mother, sister, or someone they would have a bond with. It happens.

Yet I wish it was seen more for the male side. Not because of "what about males?" but rather of showing off just how we (the readers and society) see female characters and females with our eyes. That it seems it has to be a role rather than a whole person.

I'm sorry for having to say something on this. I just had to because I feel so strongly about these topics and as awriter of what to do when you write these events.

Generally speaking, I have to wonder if the people up in arms about this and are rejecting Reki's explanation, have read Berserk or Fushigi Yugi. They're from the 90s not the 80s, but both of those casually incorporate rape and attempted rape into their storylines and are likely good examples of the sort of trend that Reki's talking about influencing his early writing.

Mertal wrote:

Correct me all you want. He was using the injector in order to subdue her while he was trying to undress her. Rapists use weapons for that purpose all the time. Whether he was going to kill her with it afterward is irrelevant.

You can refuse correction if you want, but that doesn't change the actual story, particularly when you read the LN. He was using the injector to subdue her so he could talk to her before he killed her. There is no "afterward" as his next planned action was to kill her. Aside from answers to the questions that Sinon asks to stall him, all of his dialogue is about how he plans to kill her, then himself so they can be together in the next world, which he delusionally thinks is VR. Claiming that he planned to rape her is nothing more than a headcanon. Saying he planned to rape her because he was trying to lift up her shirt is nothing more than supposition on your part. To be fair that wouldn't be bad supposition in isolation, but in context it's more than adequate to infer that he planned to inject her as close to the heart as he could, and the shirt was in the way.

All in all, Shinkawa is essentially a crazy stalker who attempted to kill the object of his affections because she rejected his affections. No, it would not have been difficult to incorporate attempted rape in there, but the reality is that there wasn't one as far as can be determined from the LN.

db999 wrote:

As a fan of both SAO and ASOIAF, there’s a major difference in how both series handle the rape content. SAO uses it solely for shock value and after the scene ends, it’s never mentioned again and the story doesn’t explore how that event affects the character involved. Maybe this instance is different, I haven’t gotten this far in SAO.

You should probably actually watch/read it first before commenting. This "instance" isn't for shock value, it's to establish something about the world they're in, develop a character, and to advance the story. Also if you're incorrectly including Sinon being attacked by her friend/stalker, that wasn't for shock value either. The whole point of that attack was to push Sinon through in reconciling her strength as "Sinon" with her real world self of "Shino". To break through her trauma enough to defend herself and fully put her on the path to recovery. The only scene that's little more than making the villain more villainous is Sugou assaulting Asuna.

aereus wrote:

AFAIK he was still in high school when he first wrote SAO Aincrad in 2001.

This myth is still going around? Reki was 27 when he first wrote SAO. Though your general point isn't very far off the mark. Those series from the 80s/90s that you list are also likely good examples of the sort of trend he's talking about influencing him.

GrayArchon wrote:

This myth is still going around? Reki was 27 when he first wrote SAO. Though your general point isn't very far off the mark. Those series from the 80s/90s that you list are also likely good examples of the sort of trend he's talking about influencing him.

Ah, so he's just one of those Japanese vampires like Araki? Smile

I couldn't find his birthdate and he doesn't look like he's in his 40s. Okay seriously then, how does someone that old write that poorly? Sigh, Kawahara...

IMHO, if obscenity has meaning and plays important role in story, than it worth to be there

Speaking about scene in ep 10 - I think it was done well, because it was important to story. Rape should NOT be tolerated even as punishment, despite any law and rule. And I think it was very important scene for Eugeo, because of it he was able to grow as a character and overcome the obstacles that doesn't let him to do anything to save Alice.

Plus, I love when scums like those 2 "nobles" are punished in story.

Top Gun wrote:

Lin Liren wrote:

It is when those folks, after trumpeting how what THEY watch is "compelling intelligent television with epic battles", turn around and cite Anime Heroic Fantasy like Sword Art Online as trash in comparison that the match is thrown on the fuse, so to speak. Fairy Dance in particular is ALL about a Warrior who saved Thousands questing with His Daughter to save their wife/mother and reunite their broken family, and waging an all out war in the name of love to do so. That is a heartfelt, poetic and human epic, not unlike The Knight's Tale by Chaucer; and they have the temerity to dismiss it as pulp because it is not written by an old white man.

...did you seriously just compare a horrifically-written, blatantly-misogynistic arc like Fairy Dance to Chaucer? Wow.

That and I would say bringing up Chaucer doesn't solve anything because stories about knights saving maidens has been interpreted by modern scholars as sexist fantasies as they relegate women to objects to be won. One could say Kawahara was keeping up a tradition, one that by its nature is sexist and he doesn't do enough to subvert, deconstruct, comment on, or even just put a spin on it. As such we have to ask the question: what was the point?

Last edited by Jonny Mendes on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:04 am; edited 4 times in total

capt_bunny wrote:

Very much agree with what said on both. One thing for sure agreeing that there are better ways of making a bad guy do bad things. BUT the fact that it is used as a plot device is something that does work. It gives the readers angry that they want to wait for the justice for the bad guy. Keep reading and waiting with the energy of wanting to protect the from characters so they continue on reading. But it's not with Japanese society either. There's a long history of having to see women as "pure" and maybe it's because of their childhood? That they see the female characters (or just females to put it all) the same way of protecting their mother, sister, or someone they would have a bond with. It happens.

Yet I wish it was seen more for the male side. Not because of "what about males?" but rather of showing off just how we (the readers and society) see female characters and females with our eyes. That it seems it has to be a role rather than a whole person.

I'm sorry for having to say something on this. I just had to because I feel so strongly about these topics and as awriter of what to do when you write these events.

The feel to protect what you love, been a girl or mother or sister is deeply engraved in the human genes, that what makes this kind of stories so appealing to boys and young adults.
Evolution on culture are showing strong woman also saving the boy, the father and the brothers.
There are now instance on Japanese manga/LN/anime were it is the woman that are the stronger characters and are they than save the man.

For me both of this kind of stories have lots of appeal.

I think this "saving the girl purity from sexual assault" work better when we talk about this stories (manga/LN/anime) because they are made for Japanese audience,even more if they are later teens and young adult men.
If we remember what happens with the idols industry were purity are so valued to the point most idols can't date nobody until the graduate from been a idol, we can understand why this is so used in manga/LN/anime.

I think Kawahara Reki used this plot device too many times in SAO, as he already admitted, but like he said, it was because he was a less experienced writer.

For me what makes this scene bad, was the use of censorship, when there was nothing to censor (maybe the gore parts, but that's it).
I only can think of this as "see the full scene when you buy the BD's). But still doesn't explain why American streaming have more censor than the others.

GrayArchon wrote:

This myth is still going around? Reki was 27 when he first wrote SAO. Though your general point isn't very far off the mark. Those series from the 80s/90s that you list are also likely good examples of the sort of trend he's talking about influencing him.

Kawahara Reki born on 17/08/1974 and now have 44 years. So yes, he started SAO at the age of 27.

Careful there. It is a fine line to skate when ALL traditional values, the GOOD along with the bad, is thrown on the fire to burn in the name of Far Left Feminism.

If we are to teach EVERY successive generation that it is somehow "chauvinist" "sexist" and therefore "evil" to stand up for Helpless Women, and yet a boy is STILL a brute if he dosen't stand up for a girl when she needs him to, we are on the path to create an entire generation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" confused young men who are defined completely by the current whims/trends of feminism, without a central moral compass that makes them ACTUALLY decent.

I'm am glad Mom was born into a Generation Where She Can Vote, I Really Am.
I am PROUD of My Big Sister who is born later into a World that allows her to be an independent doctor AND a Mom.
And I am OVERJOYED that the MeToo Movement has FINALLY dragged misogynist scumbag like Harvey Weinstein into the mud of ignominy with the rapist-pigs that he belongs with.

Measure for Measure, I am also Proud that being born in the 1980's, the FINAL age of Traditional Masculine Chivalry, to be among the LAST Men to be taught that it is Honorable and Righteous to Lay Down Your Life To Protect Your Family and Helpless Women.

And it is a terrifying prospect that the next generation of Young Men will grow up believing that ALL Masculinity, INCLUDING the nurturing and protective type that gives you the courage to PROTECT that which you love with your life, is evil.
If feminism is the ONLY bastion of righteousness, and the identity of your very birth-gender defines you as irredeemably evil, then WHAT is left for the next generation of boys and men.

A Final Toast, to Selfless, Loving Brave Husbands and Fathers like Kirito, and to Men and Artists like Kawahara Reki who help Celebrate The Nobility of Fatherhood.

Heroes still, for today.
Destined to be knaves, villains and monsters tomorrow.

Just imagine if this forums existed when Berserk happened, holy shit

Look, four things:

spoiler[Bitch(her name was changed to Bitch as a legitimate thing in the novel as punishment for something she did and I don't remember her original name) sold to a man who raped her, then cut holes and raped her in those holes and kept doing it until she died and then proceeded to give the tape of what he did to the MC. (That was Shield Bro by the way which comes out in anime form early next year)]

Actar wrote:

Top Gun wrote:

...did you seriously just compare a horrifically-written, blatantly-misogynistic arc like Fairy Dance to Chaucer? Wow.

Hey, all art is subjective. If you ever studied literature, you'd know that the quality of the work is all in the analysis. Speaking of which, I wonder how many classics we'd have to disown, censor or rewrite if we used our modern-day sensibilities to analyze them.

Once again, Actar being the voice of reason in this entire thread, although I do sympathize with Lin Liren and agree with db999 on the matter of having to defend works that you love.

Lord knows I've been there.

GrayArchon wrote:

Generally speaking, I have to wonder if the people up in arms about this and are rejecting Reki's explanation, have read Berserk or Fushigi Yugi. They're from the 90s not the 80s, but both of those casually incorporate rape and attempted rape into their storylines and are likely good examples of the sort of trend that Reki's talking about influencing his early writing.

Mertal wrote:

Correct me all you want. He was using the injector in order to subdue her while he was trying to undress her. Rapists use weapons for that purpose all the time. Whether he was going to kill her with it afterward is irrelevant.

You can refuse correction if you want, but that doesn't change the actual story, particularly when you read the LN. He was using the injector to subdue her so he could talk to her before he killed her. There is no "afterward" as his next planned action was to kill her. Aside from answers to the questions that Sinon asks to stall him, all of his dialogue is about how he plans to kill her, then himself so they can be together in the next world, which he delusionally thinks is VR. Claiming that he planned to rape her is nothing more than a headcanon. Saying he planned to rape her because he was trying to lift up her shirt is nothing more than supposition on your part. To be fair that wouldn't be bad supposition in isolation, but in context it's more than adequate to infer that he planned to inject her as close to the heart as he could, and the shirt was in the way.

All in all, Shinkawa is essentially a crazy stalker who attempted to kill the object of his affections because she rejected his affections. No, it would not have been difficult to incorporate attempted rape in there, but the reality is that there wasn't one as far as can be determined from the LN.

db999 wrote:

As a fan of both SAO and ASOIAF, there’s a major difference in how both series handle the rape content. SAO uses it solely for shock value and after the scene ends, it’s never mentioned again and the story doesn’t explore how that event affects the character involved. Maybe this instance is different, I haven’t gotten this far in SAO.

You should probably actually watch/read it first before commenting. This "instance" isn't for shock value, it's to establish something about the world they're in, develop a character, and to advance the story. Also if you're incorrectly including Sinon being attacked by her friend/stalker, that wasn't for shock value either. The whole point of that attack was to push Sinon through in reconciling her strength as "Sinon" with her real world self of "Shino". To break through her trauma enough to defend herself and fully put her on the path to recovery. The only scene that's little more than making the villain more villainous is Sugou assaulting Asuna.

aereus wrote:

AFAIK he was still in high school when he first wrote SAO Aincrad in 2001.

This myth is still going around? Reki was 27 when he first wrote SAO. Though your general point isn't very far off the mark. Those series from the 80s/90s that you list are also likely good examples of the sort of trend he's talking about influencing him.

\

I'm not talking about the LN. Never read the LN. I'm talking about the Anime.

General caution, guys 'n gals: Some posts in this thread have been straying into the realm of soapboxing, and that's heavily frowned upon. Debate on issues related to the source topic is fine, but going off on diatribes is not.

IgneusVulpe wrote:

Goblin Slayer... I don't know, haven't watched it and probably won't. Seems kind of like the stereotypical fluffy fantasy which I can get in a dozen other places including several isekai novels which are arguably darker in nature from what I've seen.

There's nothing even close to "fluffy" about any version of Goblin Slayer. "Shallow" might be a fair label, but definitely not "fluffy."

Lin Liren wrote:

And it is a terrifying prospect that the next generation of Young Men will grow up believing that ALL Masculinity, INCLUDING the nurturing and protective type that gives you the courage to PROTECT that which you love with your life, is evil.
If feminism is the ONLY bastion of righteousness, and the identity of your very birth-gender defines you as irredeemably evil, then WHAT is left for the next generation of boys and men.

The problem here is the belief that being "nurturing and protective" is a gendered quality. It's not. It should be neither masculine nor feminine, but rather human. The sole idea of gendered qualities is incredibly silly and is a part of SAO's problem because it insists that for example only men can be heroic. Like just this episode the two girls try to go and confront the two nobles about their unacceptable behavior and they are shown as naive and pitiful because they end up getting tied up and sexuality assaulted. KIRITO ON THE OTHER HAND, gets to be the hero, swooping in to save them at the last moment, showing that all that matters in the end is physical strength and well, being a man. Kirito, Eugeo and the two girls all did the same thing - tried to get the nobles to stop their evil deeds and yet only Kirito and Eugeo got to be shown as heroes. Almost no words on the girls bravery in the face of people of higher status and greater strength than them in an attempt to protect their friends.

But sure, MEN are the oppressed ones here because what will you ever do when you realize that kindness isn't a gendered quality.

Wait, the guy was seriously almost 30 when he first wrote that crap?

I genuinely thought he was 15 and went "oh, that makes sense".

If I needed yet another reason to hate this franchise...

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