Forum - View topicWhen the audits don't remove incorrect genres and themes?
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cardcaptormanda
 Posts: 237 Location: United States |
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If we feel something is incorrect, and the audit system doesn't appear to be doing its job in removing it, is there anything we as individual users can do about it? Are we allowed to report them here in the forum, since the error report option has been removed from genres and themes, or would the staff rather they remain until the audits process eventually does what its supposed to do? I understand that the nature of the audits system doesn't allow errors to be removed right away, but in some cases, they remain for much too long.
Three that have been bothering me for a while now are Maria-sama ga Miteru (both series and the OVA), Zero no Tsukaima (all three series), and xxxHOLiC (both of them). Every Maria-sama ga Miteru title, excluding only the comedic DVD extras, has yuri as a theme. However, yuri, as defined even by ANN's own lexicon, contains explicit sexual content. The Maria-sama anime are shoujo-ai at most, but yuri remains (alongside shoujo-ai), and will likely always remain, because of a widespread misunderstanding and misuse of the term. Basically, these titles have been labeled as lesbian porn, which is completely incorrect and misleading. Shoujo-ai should remain, but yuri should be removed. Then there's the three Zero no Tsukaima anime, all labeled magical girl. Yes, the story features a "girl" who uses "magic" but she is not a magical girl as the term is used regarding anime. The series takes place in a magical fantasy world, and more specifically at a magic school, where just about everyone of any age and sex can do magic. Magic is a normal part of everyday life in this world. Louise is not a "magical girl" and these anime should not be labeled as such (compare Zero no Tsukaima to "true" magical girl anime and the difference becomes obvious). These anime have been labeled magical girl for months, almost since the themes feature was first added to the encyclopedia. The two xxxHOLiC titles have been labeled slice-of-life for ages now, which is odd considering that they couldn't be farther from it. They are also both labeled fantasy, even though both take place completely in our world (the only exceptions are a few very brief excursions into the spirit world). Fantasy and slice-of-life have been in both of their genre lists for months and don't appear to be going anywhere. These are just three examples out of dozens, if not hundreds. It just doesn't seem to be acceptable for these incorrect genres/themes to remain for many months (if not forever), especially because the encyclopedia has always strived to contain only true/correct information. What would the staff like users to do in cases like these? |
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 1708 |
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The problem is the same as with "yaoi" and "shounen ai"—the old meaning of "yuri" as lesbian-themed anime and manga porn is being replaced by one that conflates it with the old meaning "shoujo ai": lesbian-themed stories. See my older post on the subject for a partial explanation of why this is happening. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I think the select one genres (fantasy/supernatural/magic) make submitting a correction more difficult because you can only audit against what is currently listed. Like xxxHOLiC, Baccano! is also listed as fantasy, while the only elements that possibly fit into that category are the demon (who disagrees with the use of the term demon) and the elixer of life (which is IIRC treated rather scientifically). Being set in our world, but with slight semi-magical additions, the genre "magic" would be far more appropriate, but the audit does not allow for a potential new genre to be added, so one would have to wait until the audit is complete to submit the new genre, which must then go through a qualifying audit.
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rti9
 Posts: 1241 |
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The tricky question is how to determine if the audit system was a good idea after all. A vital question to all veterans here: are there more errors than before the introduction of the new system? I used the encyclopedia before registering but never really paid attention to these details so I have no idea.
From the Letter from the Encyclopedist:
It is crucial that the staff discusses this point: is the audit system helping the encyclopedia editors at all? Is leaving part of the burden to the general public helping or harassing the encyclopedia? |
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cardcaptormanda
Posts: 237 Location: United States |
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In my opinion, not only are there many more errors in the genres (and there are many, many themes that don't belong), but they are much more difficult to have removed. I used to be able to just use the error report button, explain why I thought a genre shouldn't be there, and it was removed (or, rarely, the staff decided to keep it). If the audit process was quicker, and possible errors only stuck around for a while, there wouldn't be a problem, but because you have to wait for the usually lengthy audit process to make a decision (if it ever does), errors often stick around for a long time, especially for obscure or unlicensed titles that fewer people have seen. Most of the examples (which are just a few of many) I gave above have been around for several months. I know the audit system must be making things easier for the staff, but IMO, it's making the genres and themes pretty unreliable. Last edited by cardcaptormanda on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10430 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Dan is working on an improved version of the audits that will allow you to make comments with your votes, so that people who know more about the topic can explain why people should vote one way or another.
This should help deal with the problem you're describing. -t |
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rti9
Posts: 1241 |
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I'm really sorry, but I fail to see how this will help solve the problem. Doesn't the addition of comments mean that there will be a necessity of moderation due to the high probability of trolling?
These two may not be the answer for all the mess involving the audit system, but they could shed a light towards the solution. |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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The problem is, you're under the impression that yuri is one thing and shoujo-ai is another, but you're not necessarily right either. Shoujo-ai is a term created by an American. Yuri doesn't necessarily mean explicit homosexual relationships between women at all. So MariMite is very validly listed as yuri. Yes, I realize ANN's lexicon defines it differently, but it also doesn't mean it's right. I'd rather go by the views of leading yuri scholars and publishers, such as Erica Friedman who has an excellent short essay on the topic. |
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cardcaptormanda
Posts: 237 Location: United States |
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I do realize that shoujo-ai, as a term, does not exist in Japan and that it was created in the west. However, since its creation, it has come to mean something quite different than yuri in the average western fan's mind, as pointed out even in Friedman's essay. Since this site, as stated again and again by the staff, caters to that western fanbase, the terms and definitions of that fanbase are usually the ones preferred here. However, if we are going to take yuri to mean any kind of romantic relationship between women, sexual or not, then at the very least, shoujo-ai should be removed from Maria-sama's entries. The presence of both yuri and shoujo ai in Maria-sama's themes suggest that they are two different things and that both are present within the series. One or the other should be gone. And also, if this in the definition of yuri the site is going to use (which encompasses both explicit sexual content and innocent romantic relationships between women), then the lexicon entries for both yuri and shoujo-ai need to be changed to reflect that. And all of this further illustrates my point that it's become more difficult to sort out errors since the audit system was put in place... |
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 1708 |
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You seem to have missed the link I posted to my earlier post, which addresses the history of the terms "shoujo ai" and "yuri" in English—as well as that very essay. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Sorry to throw oil on the fire but there are also plenty of works with lesbian themes that are neither yuri nor shoujo-ai (i.e. works that are non-prurient and not aimed at a male audience). My understanding is that actual Japanese lesbians do not use the term "yuri" and I've never seen the word used to describe josei manga for straight women that incorporate lesbian themes either.
Similarly, there are plenty of male homosexual manga that are not yaoi (because they're actually aimed at gay men rather than straight women and thus don't follow the tropes and archetypes of the yaoi genre). We could just use the words "lesbian" and "gay" as catch-all terms regardless of intended audience but I don't suppose that would make everyone happy either. |
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Mylene
Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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You are correct, I did. I read the thread a few weeks ago, and decided for some stupid reason to post and forgot to recheck that link. So just ignore whatever I wrote. |
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DerekTheRed
 Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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Ok, what about things like duplicate/repetitive themes? For example, there are 1 anime and one manga for the "bicycling" theme, and one for "cycling". Nobody will ever reject Cycling as a theme for Over Drive (except for me, while I was trying to figure out if there was a way to suggest to change a theme... My bad) It's technically correct, so it'll stay there forever, but it is repetetive. There are lots more too...
5 for figure skating and 1 for sports (figure skating) and 2 for ice skating which could be different than figure skating, but in these two cases is not 11 for boxing and 1 for sports (boxing) 2 for table tennis and 1 for ping pong 9 for wrestling and 9 for pro-wrestling This one may be OK though 7 for martial arts and 1 for martial-arts What I would suggest for these categories is to tag them each once with "sports" and another time with "whatever sport it is" There are also some non sports ones: 21 for music and 6 for musical 1 for motorcycle and 2 for motorcycle racing 7 for lolicon and 1 for loli and 1 for gothic lolita 17 for crossdressing and 2 for cross dressing 13 for bishoujo and 2 for bisho-jo Are these the same or not? 14 for post-apocalyptic 1 for apocalypse and 1 for apocalyptic X is categorized as all three Is the only way to get these straightened out to submit the more common theme and audit the lesser one? (Lovin' the curling tag. I want nothing more than to have Orange Delivery animated in time for the Winter Olympics) |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I'd agree with most of those but...
Lolicon and loli are duplicates but gothic lolita is a clothing fashion (as opposed to a sexual euphemism).
Apocalypse and apocalyptic are, effectively, duplicates but post-apocalyptic doesn't mean the same thing. Apocalyptic is during, post-apocalyptic is after. --- Talking of themes and genres, shouldn't both be capitalised or both be uncapitalised (I'd suggest the former) - it looks a bit messy as is. |
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rti9
Posts: 1241 |
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This free input text problem had already been predicted way back when the Dan42 was displaying his ideas of how the genre search would function. Until now, the closest thing to a solution seems to be this, but I guess it was probably discarded since the last "update" didn't feature it. On these specific cases it would be more practical if editors could just merge themes into the one they think are more appropriate and ban the usage of the duplicates. It would take forever for normal users to implement the similar themes and pray that the random users agree with him/her to vote down the inappropriate ones. |
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