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Madoka: Otaku.

I prefer the term man-kinder. There's something about adding a Teutonic designation that lends a whiff of respectability to an otherwise dubious status ... right?

It's most definitely aimed at the otaku audience. The style is bona-fide otaku bait and the story comes from a guy who makes VNs for such people.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

Getting bigger than expected and attracting an audience other than the intended ones does not redefine the show.

It does, because the people who liked it don't care what it was intended for, they see it for what it meant to them. It's still an otaku show like you said but it's more at this point.

And then everything gets flipped like a table and whatever the otaku were expecting ends up completely subverted, because the show is more of a mindscrew horror series than a magical girl one.

Blood- wrote:

I prefer the term man-kinder. There's something about adding a Teutonic designation that lends a whiff of respectability to an otherwise dubious status ... right?

How about kinder-man? Sounds almost like a superhero now.

If that were true then K-ON and Haruhi would be redefined as well. However, regardless of their sales and popularity they are still regarded as otaku shows.

No really I am too young to grow up and too old to feel insecure about my entertainment.

You're implying that they haven't been redefined, which I wouldn't agree with without knowing how the non-otaku Japanese feel about it. In any case I would counter with the original Gundam and NGE. Or Cowboy Bebop. Do all those Americans who loved that show define it by whom it was aimed at?

American's love for specific anime plays no part in redefining a show that aired in Japan. The sooner you realize that the sooner this nonsensical thread can die.

Horror and mind screws also have a strong otaku backing, Higurashi, Chaos;Head, School Days, Steins;Gate. There's really no theme or genre one can use to say "this is for otaku", "this is not".

The only flipping or subverting going on is from people who are not otaku that like PMMM and detest otaku, that are now trying to reason away PMMM from the grubby hands of otaku.

The magical girl genre is just one genre that some otaku are interested in. Horror and mind screws also have a strong otaku backing, Higurashi, Chaos;Head, School Days, Steins;Gate. There's really no theme or genre one can use to say "this is for otaku", "this is not".

The only flipping or subverting going on is from people who are not otaku that like PMMM and detest otaku, that are now trying to reason away PMMM from the grubby hands of otaku.

And then everything gets flipped like a table and whatever the otaku were expecting ends up completely subverted, because the show is more of a mindscrew horror series than a magical girl one.

Oh please. What Otaku like cannot be neatly defined into Otaku and non-Otaku genres, which is why there isn't any clean rules as to the separation. It is the premise, style, tone and execution of all those things that really matters.

PMMM is a Type A show. The only one who can't handle the truth is you, who is deliberately missing the forest for the trees.

You bury yourself in detail about all the superficial aspects; the character designs, the costumes, the drinking tea, everything else that is Moe about it. But you don't want to scratch underneath and look at the big picture. It is like thinking that Death Note must be Type B because it appeals to guys who only wish they were half as awesome as Light. But as we know, Death Note is Type A, despite being ridiculously entertaining at the same time.

Although defining Type A and Type B is tricky, I've always thought of it like this; Type A makes you think, Type B keeps you entertained.

Now, of course there is massive crossover, but if you boil the series down to one attribute then what is it? A thinking show, or an enjoyment show? With PMMM the ride was certainly awesome, and the vast majority of people who finished the show got satisfaction out of it. But the show at its core was about the themes and the tone and the deconstructing.

Now you're just repeating yourself. You've given no reason as to why the original intent should be the only thing that matters when defining a show and not the resulting popularity. And concerning the thread, it was doa, it was more about semantics than Madoka in the first place.

Whatever helps you think you've won the nonexistant argument.

I have not buried myself in superficial details as I have been trying to kept it pretty damn simple. PMMM was targeted at otaku and the producers wanted to deconstruct the magical girl genre, thus was born an otaku show that had reached higher highs than expected. The what, why, and how it was does is what you're trying to use to complicate the matter.

Although defining Type A and Type B is tricky, I've always thought of it like this; Type A makes you think, Type B keeps you entertained. Now, of course there is massive crossover, but if you boil the series down to one attribute then what is it? A thinking show, or an enjoyment show? With PMMM the ride was certainly awesome, and the vast majority of people who finished the show got satisfaction out of it. But the show at its core was about the themes and the tone and the deconstructing.

The intended audience is all the matters when trying to pigeon-hole a show into a category that is determined by audience. That's my reason. [..] Why would I need further reasoning when my statement would remain accurate so long as I don't convolute matters with unrelated details.