Forum - View topicHow you feel about fanservice and why.
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Surrender Artist
 Posts: 3264 Location: Pennsylvania, USA |
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I'm still far from happy about this, but an eternity of tinkering won't change that, so it's either post what I have or give it all up. With Hurricane Sandy bearing down on me, I've chosen to just take the chance.
This thread is not meant to be an argument about fanservice in anime, but about exploring reactions to it and why people have those reactions. And to fend pedants off, please understand that it is about sexual or prurient fanservice. I know that there are other kinds, but those generally don’t cause the same kind of ruckus. What will ideally happen is that those who chose to respond will think about their own tastes and reactions, then make some effort toward explaining why they have them and how they feel about them. This calls for introspection and discussion, not acrimony and insult. I’m asking for this because I must confess to being genuinely unable to understand why so many fans are so intensely attached to fanservice and especially why attacks on it can provoke such strong, aggressive defenses. It might seem incomprehensible, but I really haven’t been able to understand why some people have such a large appetite for fanservice. I want to understand, because screaming at one another has gotten us nowhere and never been interesting. I want explanations, not polemics. I plead with anybody who replies to this thread to contribute meaningfully and take pains to be courteous and tolerant of anything short of real, unrepentant misogyny. If you’re just going to post something curtly rejecting or demeaning the premise, please spare us that. If somebody posts something inflammatory or insulting, it’s quite reasonable to call it out, but please restrain your anger. The moderators hardly need to take any instruction from my, but I urge them to be aggressive in keeping order and not to hesitate to lock the thread if it shows signs of going out of hand. With all that said, it’s only right of me to try to explain myself. I hope that I’ve avoided being insulting or condescending and I regret if I have failed in that. And remember, I'm speaking only for my own fallible feelings and experience, not judgement or complaint. Maybe all I’ll do is prove that I’m nuts. Ideally almonds. I’m not generally fond of fanservice, but if I might be allowed to slice things a bit finely, the things that bother me seem fairly distinct and I think that my reasons not to like them are founded in good faith. I was once told that I might like Cat Planet Cuties but not its, “harem or nudity, “aspects. That was a little distressing, because while I certainly don’t like harems, nudity on its own doesn’t bother me, rather, when I object to fanservice, it is a matter of context and portrayal. When I’m bothered by sexual fanservice, it’s not because it’s happened, but because of the form it takes and my sense of the social context that it comes from. The stuff that I don’t like tends to involve very conspicuous, highly refined, intensely concentrated and meticulously targeted appeals obviously made directly to the audience. I am bothered when the circumstances and camera angles make it seem like the reactions or interests of the characters are incidental to the fanservice. It makes it all feel like a contrivance to supply an illusion of interaction to the viewer. It’s like watching Dora the Explorer, except instead of asking where backpack is, she’s asking, “how big are my tits?” A good example of this is Strike Witches, where the premise seems substantially designed to expose the bodies of the cast and the camera is often positioned to emphasize their breasts and butts. I must admit that watching Strike Witches was an unpleasant experience for me. I felt like I should have been watching it in the back of a windowless van and that every episode should’ve ended with an amber alert instead of a preview. I have a bad reaction to a lot of fanservice because it makes things less entertaining for me. It feels disruptive and intrusive, breaking the narrative and violating my suspensions of disbelief. Some of my enjoyment of fiction depends upon sustaining a pretension that there is some reality to what I’m seeing; that the events and characters are real, so their actions and the events have meaning. Obvious fanservice damages that, because it emphasizes how what I’m experiencing is contrived for the benefit of the watcher. It’s much like direct, contrived exposition, which similarly shows me the strings, damaging my ability to engage with whatever I’m watching. It signals that the significance or relevance of what I’m seeing to the characters and story is a meaningless tool for appeasing my presumed appetites. For me, it undermines the elements that make me watch and be interested. Sexual fanservice is especially bad for characterization. It can feel demeaning to the female characters, subordinating their personalities and motives to their sexual appeal, which at the very least makes it harder to feel invested in them. I’m quite happy for there to be sexual content, but I want to be in service of the substance of the story. If a buxom woman opening her blouse to seduce another character is portrayed and framed in a way that emphasizes or at least gives equal consideration to its meaning on the characters, that doesn’t chafe me at all, I might well enjoy it, but if the camera leers relentlessly directly at the woman’s chest and goes to great lengths to keep the man out of the picture, or at least out of the fun parts of it, then it I’m distracted, not engaged. If things like happen once or twice, it’s not much bother, but when they’re frequent, even relentless, then it makes for a lousy experience. I don’t get the idea of ‘ecchi series’, like To-Love-Ru, whose raison d’être is nudity and very aggressive highlighting of certain parts of the female characters. They just seem a step outside of my ability to comprehend, as though its incompatible with my psychology. I can’t see how that can be entertaining for more than a passing pleasure. In some ways, it's similar to how I feel about action, which I'm not as averse to, but that also can't often sustain my interest for very long. I’m not incapable of understanding generally why that might be enjoyable or of enjoying a little of it myself. I have elsewhere confessed that boobs are a great guilty pleasure of mine, but I think of that kind of thing as merely cheap thrills. They seem like the kind of thing that builds interest quickly to a high peak, then let it almost immediately fall flat. Fanservice moments several times over and over again in an episode, week after week just seems boring to me. I imagine a single episode or short special that runs on fanservice, but nothing longer. It seems kind of insulting to men too. That’s a feeble thing to protest about, I suppose, but it feels like their presuming that men can’t attention to something without being shown tits at regular intervals to keep them awake. All of this means that I can't get attached to things that lean heavily on fanservice because of that element and is why I struggle to grasp the strong appreciation that some people seem to enjoy. It just seems like a disposable feature to me. In the end I have to come down to confessing that my discomfort with fanservice comes from something further down my craw. While I plead with you to believe that I have mere aesthetic complaints, I can’t deny that it goes against my moral instincts. It’s not about religious question, but comes from the social context that inspires the form that fanservice takes and even to some extent from the nature of the medium. I become ill at ease when shown female characters portrayed in ways that overtly emphasize their sexual appeal to the audience concurrently with a lack of control over their selves or circumstances. This includes, among other things, involuntary exposure from the destruction or wetting of their clothes, other characters falling into their décolletages or crotches, being shown to display their breasts or buttocks while seeming unaware, especially because of stupidity, that they are doing so, the camera leering piercingly at them on our behalf and straightforward groping by other characters. Those are especially upsetting to me when complemented by expressions and behavior signaling, even emphasizing embarrassment or humiliation. Portrayals like that mix with the Dora the Explorer effect to make it feel like I’m being asked to enjoy imagining committing sexual assault. I find that distracting and really goddamned unpleasant. Consider the recently released promotional video for Senran Kagura. A lot of how the characters are portrayed was unpleasant for me. Among the first things to happen is a character being knocked into a water bucket, getting her shirt soaked and grimacing in embarrassment. Characters are promoted as clumsy and vacant-eyed, compromised or embarrassed and straight-up groped. The problem isn’t that they have bodies that only make sense if made of molded plastic, but that it informs us of nothing out them but their sexual appeal and emphasizes how they’re non-threatening and vulnerable. I well understand that these are fictional characters, but I can’t wantonly divorce the fiction from the social context that gives it meaning. The problem for me is that I see the demand for fanservice and what form it takes as derived from society that trains us. There is certainly a basic biological component to it, but I think that a lot of the specifics of it are socially constructed. Any real world imitation of fanservice would be pretty sexist if not outright sexual assault, which are real, significant current social problems. To me, the appeal of the fiction of fanservice suggests a degree of acceptance or indifference toward these problems that sits poorly with me. I can easily say that seeing a character’s skirt shredded off to facilitate a close-up shot of her lovingly detailed camel-toe is not real, but I hesitate unhappily at asserting that this is unconnected to social attitudes about women. It just makes me feel as though it reinforces or normalizes those attitudes and associated conduct. In some sense, I think that the fact that the woman in question is animated makes it more a little more unnerving. Animated females are pure creation, they have no power or control that isn’t benevolently granted to them by their creators. It’s a little disconcerting how reliably that unrestricted creation yields characters that are so much mere sexual objects. I am captive to a feeling that art reflects something about reality and I find myself deeply distressed by what I see in this particular mirror. I guess that a lot of this comes from my discomfort with power disparities and the dominance hierarchies that they create. Being in a position of superiority, especially one with capacity to cause harm, is uncomfortable and distasteful to me. There’s something that I can stand in seeing things that revel in, exult or celebrate coercive power, especially physical power. I think that this is part of why I tend to be disgusted by American foreign policy and militarism. More germanely, I suspect that I see such praise and worship of a damaging power in much fanservice because I connect it to the disparities and consequent dominance hierarchies between men and women that exist in human society. Certain kinds of fanservice seem to ask me to assume and revel in being in the dominant part of such a hierarchy. Given how many anime fans are probably the sort who are excluded from being in dominant positions, who thus feel frustrated, rejected and deprived of privileges or benefits that they are socialized to expect, maybe the prevalence of fanservice is a response to that and even feeds it. A further, related factor is that I tend to conceive of male sexuality as relatively aggressive, angry and even hateful. Perhaps it stems from having paid too much attention to young white males, but male sexuality seems somehow joyless, almost sociopathic and dehumanizing at times. Given that so much fanservice appeals to male sexuality, I follows that I have strong negative associations with it. I think that this might be why I have developed an affinity for yuri. I would like to believe that I avoid the silly idealization of love between two women being pure, but I probably associate it with a lack of traditional power disparities and unpleasant male sexuality that exploits those disparities. They seem somehow safer and relaxing to me. Bear in mind that I’m not fond of certain portrayals of lesbians, akin to some of what was in the Senran Kagura video, which basically uses it as a pretense to show somebody behave like a horny fourteen year old, the lowest dregs of humanity. I do worry that I’m unduly and inappropriately fetishizing lesbians, although my sense of the potential for that to be wrong is mostly notional and might be something that I’m unread to face. Looking over my favorite anime and characters, I can’t deny that I have a powerful preference for strong, assertive and capable female characters. If I’m honest, characters like that are an alluring feature for me. A non-trivial part of why I’m watching Jormungand is that has a lot of powerful female characters, who have, somewhat interestingly, better defined, clearer identities than most of the male cast. I certainly wouldn’t have been as wowed by the first episode of Rose of Versailles if it had been about Marie Antoinette having tea parties or a male guard rather than a girl who totally owns guys in fights. Perhaps I see these characters as inverting, rejecting or subverting the social hierarchies that I’m so averse to, making them very appealing. I think that the feeling at work is a kind of deep admiration of something that is impressive through defeating or undermining norms, the typical and expectations. I’m not sure if there’s not form of sexual interest at play, but I’m a little skeptical of it. Maybe I just hope that there’s not. I think that Balsa is a great character, the kind I really dig, but I don’t think that I secretly want to bang her or feel her up. (It would probably freak me out if I did) In fact, I tend to find it more difficult to relate to someone when there’s obvious sexual interest at play. I’m troubled, however, by some seeming inconsistencies and contradictions. For all that I protest about not liking fanservice, I have really enjoy some exuberantly exploitative trash, namely Rin: Daughters of Mnemosyne, Weather Report Girl, the ridiculous stuff in the first half of Speed Grapher and even Kekko Kamen, to name the principles. There are things about those that seems like they should bother me, but they by and large don’t. (I thought that Speed Grapher was lousy, but for other reasons) I could just claim quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus, but that’s not satisfying. My best guess, short of plain inexplicable hypocrisy, is that I’m not bothered because these are shielded by their absurdity, almost as though their characters are in on the joke, and because they, Kekko goddamned [/i]Kamen[/i] excepted, feature mostly adult women who are not weakened, diminished or subordinated through the exploitation. I must concede, however, that to be imperfect and probably a rationalization. Despite how strongly and thoroughly opposed I might seem to fanservice, I don’t want to seem generally or mostly against to sexual content and idealization. I have no objections to portrayals of consensual sexual intercourse, especially if it makes sense within the context of the story and for the characters involved. I see nothing intrinsically wrong with attractive, but not grotesquely distorted, characters in provocative dress. All I want is those portrayals be made with a certain modicum of care, respect, conscientiousness and, perhaps, joyfulness. I know that my preferences might seem restrictive, but I don’t think they’re necessarily that severe or that they will always hold. After all, women clearly have some analogous appetites and seem to be getting more to appease them. Those, however, trouble me far less, because they do not seem to work from and depend upon the framework of dominance hierarchies that I crowed so much about. Perhaps in an ideal future, things will change so that we want the stuff that seems really awful to me less and the inequalities will be weaker, taking the sting off of the rest. Early feminists rejected many traditional trappings of female behavior because they associated them with weakness and subordination, but many modern ones embrace conspicuously girly things as claiming and asserting control over their distinct identity because they are no longer socially mandatory. I suspect that both were right within the context of their times and that the changes wrought by the early generations made so that premises eventually became invalid, encouraging later generations to adopt what had been rejected because it could now have a different significance. So, if you want a sexier future, strive for a more respectful present. So that’s my damage, which I confess was a lot more extensive and severe than I had originally expected. I hope that this at least makes my attitudes seem founded in something other than prudery or bad faith. I was not trying to persuade or convince; I don’t think that I would have the right to given what I’ve said.. It’s a little embarrassing, actually, but what have I got to lose? And, of course, if you read all of that, I owe you a whole lot of cake, or sweet cherry pie, if you prefer. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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Surrender Artist--
Wow. I am tempted to classify your writing as a screed/jeremiad; but it is too thoughtfully written! Kudos to you, sir, for taking the time and making the effort to write that monograph! Compared to your literacy, I am a functional illiterate! As for the topic at hand, all that I can say is that I prefer it not to be "in my face," as it were. Like you, I find it to be sexist. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23843 |
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First, I think you over-estimate the degree to which pro-fan service types like myself are "intensely devoted" to the element. If it is simply a matter of watching it, it provides another potential layer of enjoyment. Some of us are not adverse to the pleasures of titillation. In my case, I get much more riled up when I read strongly worded negative opinions about it which I tend to associate with holier than thou posturing. The vehemence with which I oppose those attitudes may mislead someone like you into thinking I am "intensely devoted" to fanservice when it would be more accurate to say I am fiercely opposed to politically correct bullshit where ever I encounter it.
Let me be clear: I have no problem with someone who says, "you know what? Fanservice - it's not for me. I find it distracting, I don't find it sexy and I feel more comfortable watching shows that don't have it." I consider that an incredibly reasonable, understandable position. But far too often what I read is, "zomg, fanservice is the essence of all that is wrong in the world; what kind of puerile no-mind would actually watch that kind of crap?" But to get back to (one of) your questions: I like looking at attractive female figures, regardless of whether I am seeing them in real life, in live action film, in photographs or in anime. Most fanservice in anime is used in light comedy. To me panty flashes and the like are perfectly amiable companions of light comedy. Would I appreciate some pantsu during a poignant death scene? No, but that hardly ever happens. Fanservice is a form of pandering. Pandering is not something welcome in serious works of art. Pandering in light comedies, action or fantasy entertainment where 99 per cent of all fanservice lives, is not a crime against humanity. |
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wcsinn
 Posts: 186 |
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With all due respect, I think this somewhat of a 'fool's errand', despite your sincere attempts at civil discussion you have to know that it will rapidly degenerate into what you state you want to avoid. In addition, you will never understand what people find appealing in something you, yourself, find unappealing or worse yet disturbing. Ever try to understand what someone finds attractive in a food or beverage you can't stand? I hate brocolli and no amount of discussion will ever allow me to understand what some folks find appealing in it, it's largely a matter of personal taste.
No offense, but you seem to have fairly conservative outlooks on sex, relationships and related issues - nothing wrong with that but since your value system obviously differs from those who "enjoy fan service" what makes you think you'll ever truely understand their tastes and values? Doesn't it simply make more sense to simply watch those things you enjoy and find no problems with? Bottom line, you will either find ecchi, fan service, harems, whatever entertaining or you won't. If you do - then simply enjoy them. What I find confusing is people who feel compelled to apologize for what they enjoy. If you find those types of story lines disturbing or simply don't enjoy them, watch something else. Frankly, I don't understand the desire to dissect everything and trying to assign deep-rooted meanings to what is, ultimately, just mindless entertainment. This is anime not philosophy or theology, my suggestion is to simply lighten up, ignore what you don't like and enjoy what you do like. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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Wow. Surrender, why aren't you a columnist on this site?! At least as a guest.
I could totally see you doing "For our Consideration" thought pieces like they have at the AV Club. As to the topic at hand, I think I share many of the views you do, but my own personal reasons are two-pronged: 1-I'm gay, and seeing as how fanservicey shows are straight-male targeted, that's pretty much an immediate hurdle. And as for female targeted shows, honestly the types of fanservice employed by them tend to be so damn mild that they honestly barely register to me, hell especially in comparison to male-targeted shows ("oh...he has his shirt off, ohhhhh). and 2-I really don't find 2D (or 3D CGI if you have to ask) characters sexually attractive or titilating. Not saying I kind find a particular character's design aesthetically appealing, be it male or female, but I've never seen an anime character and gotten "hot under the color". The fact that the bishonen style so frequantly employed does nothing for me and in real life prefer a more "masculine" type of guy also doesn't help. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Sex is a hot issue for people, because of conflicting views stemming from various backgrounds. Culture, religion, and so forth. Some religions teach you to be ashamed of your body and sex is a sin. Then you got the more liberal people who view it as a free act and a person's own individual choice. So far no one's been able to get people in real life to conform on a unified view of the subject and I doubt it'll change anytime soon. Now, why do I like fanservice? Does "I'm a straight male" qualify? No? Well, that's about all I can really say. These characters are attractive, naturally, because they're designed that way. Fanservice is just appealing to the bulk of fans who also think that way. Sex sells and all that. It applies to girls too so I find any talk of it being 'sexist' silly (more of what nbahn and other people have said in the past, not Surrender Artist per say) As someone who has female friends with Qwaser yuri/sex videos on YouTube, if you look at the statistics for those views, about 80% were females between the ages of 13 - 24. Males were surprisingly under represented in them. Maybe they skipped them because you can only show the foreplay on YouTube and none of the insertion/good bits. Who knows? But I just find the idea that fanservice/sex in anime is a male-dominated and sexist issue to be so backwards. It's like we're back in the days where we still think girls don't enjoy sex and its a chore for them to do. I don't know about you, but most of the girls I know enjoy looking sexy and dressing up. And this says nothing about the plethora of BL/yaoi stuff out there for girls that they enjoy. Girls are hardly being hung out to dry here. In fact, last I checked, fujoshi were behind the bulk of smut being produced, so if you want to get technical, men are more in danger of being underrepresented. BL shows like Inazuma Eleven, Hetalia, and Prince of Tennis have been dominating Comiket for the past couple years now. The inclusion of Kuroko no Basket this year definitely doesn't help that. Anyway, more on topic, sexuality is a human characteristic and part of everyone; to deny it is to deny your own humanity. I appreciate anime for being open about it, giving us fun shows like Fairy Tail, High School of the Dead, Digimon, Sket Dance , Yu-Gi-Oh!, One Piece, and any other show which can mix in fanservice seamlessly with their other traits, leading to a more overall enjoyable experience to me. We get enough groups shaming us into thinking our bodies and sex is a sin in real life. It's nice to indulge in a medium that's so open and honest about it, don't you think? |
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dragon695
 Posts: 1377 Location: Clemson, SC |
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Thank you surrender artist for articulating your position in such an eloquent manner.
I think the part that bothers me the most is when it is just pushed in your face for no good reason. Most of the time it is indicative of lazy writing, where there is no attempt to weave it into the plot. It feels jarring and out of place. Fairy Tail is a perfect example of fanservice done wrong. Always, always, without fail it comes up at the stupidest times. It's hard to give a shyte about characters when the timing is all off. Sket Dance is a show that does it right, since I always know when we are in comedy mode or serious mode, with fanservice not being in the latter. I don't like fanservice in my serious mode, thank you very much. It is exactly as SA says, it ruins the suspension of disbelief. Another aspect of fanservice is that is usually done to appeal to purity-obsessed hikikomori and NEETS who probably have never dated a real girl. As such, the message becomes quite sex-negative. It is okay to bounce your titties around like a whore, but you damn well better not hint that another man penetrated you! So, for example, we are often denied even a hint of sleeping together. The obsession with lesbianism also seems to lend some credibility to this notion. So often times the fanservice characters become flat and one dimensional. It becomes tiresome when you can instantly spot these characters. I very much thought that dtm42 had it right when he said that porn is honest, but many of these edgy fanservice shows are not. TLR-D should have been hentai, especially when even ATX won't broadcast it without making it impossible to watch what is the point? You might as well with a series like that. Last edited by dragon695 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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First I must apologize for not reading your entire post. You obviously put a lot of thought and work into it, but I just do not feel like I would be able to appreciate the effort right now.
I hope that I did read enough to understand what you want. I like fanservice. I like it a lot. I seek it out. If I have to choose between two shows that are roughly equal in other ways and one has a lot of fanservice and the other has little or none I will choose the one with more fanservice. Why do I like it? I am not sure, but it may be just because I am a pervert. One of my perversions is voyeurism. I manage to avoid engaging in that in real life, but I like to indulge myself in entertainment. I also like to fantasize about what I could do if the show was real and I was in it. Fanservice helps with that. A show does not need to have fanservice for me to enjoy it. There are even some shows that I am glad do not have any fanservice because it would feel out of place. Cardcaptor Sakura and Kamichu are two examples that I can think of right now. I find it difficult to explain why I like something without just saying various things that essentially mean "I like it" in different words. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Basically, as a heterosexual male I don't have a problem with fanservice per se. I don't mind female nudity, or girls showing cleavage and shapely legs.
But fanservice should be a perk, a shout-out to fans. What I have a problem with is when fanservice is the actual goal of a work rather than a side thing. If it is summertime and a female character is wearing a tube-top and short denim jeans, then that's fine with me. But if it is only summertime so that the creators had the excuse to put the girl in such clothes, then that is a problem. Fanservice should never be so important as to dictate plot. Fanservice should also never be used as a crutch to support the plot. That's why I look down on those shows that make fanservice their number one priority. I could give you a huge list of shows that I've checked out where the creators barely even bothered with making an intriguing plot or have interesting characters. They didn't bother simply because both plot and characters were seen as mere accessories or enablers to the fanservice. And I wonder why people continue to watch these sorts of shows? Can't they see that the creators are insulting their intelligence? Don't they want more out of a show than T&A? If they want to watch porn then they should just go watch porn instead of the awful shows on offer each season. (Yes, Hentai generally has bad plots and characters too, but it can be excused since 'fanservice' - with an aim towards masturbation - is legitimately the primary objective of those works and they don't try and hide it.) |
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SereneChaos
 Posts: 384 Location: Middle of Nowhere, USA |
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I see fanservice as a crutch of sorts. Often times, it is used to help an otherwise weak anime limp along to some profits. Some shows that could walk fine on their own use it as a safety, and this sometimes trips them up instead. But if utilized well, these crutches can mesh well with the show's other attributes and not be a bother to those who don't like fanservice and still appealing to those who do like it.
The largest problem I see with fanservice from a business stand point is that it alienates some viewers. A fanservice heavy title will only have half the potential viewers/fans, if that much, as one without. I highly doubt anything with a lot of fanservice will ever reach the level of FullMetal Alchemist, Death Note, or Spirited Away in the US. As for the sexist problems of fanservice, I see it as a rather minor sexism. Even the most sexist fanservice in and of itself is generally only eye roll level. The bigger issues can really only come into play when it comes to the plots and characters. Besides, the only anime/manga I've truly been enraged at because of the sexism are ones where there is very little fanservice and what is there is usually directed at women. For example, a scene of a hospital where every single doctor is male and every single nurse is female is far more annoying than a beach episode devoted to showing off the characters' watermelon sized boobs. |
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dragon695
Posts: 1377 Location: Clemson, SC |
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As I mentioned in my edit above, I remember you saying that "at least it is honest about its intentions." I think that is clearly one of the problems here, many of the fanservice shows have a whiff of dishonesty and disingenuity about them. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Exactly. Although I look down on fanservice shows I do not look down on porn. That's because it doesn't pretend to be something its not, and what it tries to accomplish has nothing to do with art or storytelling or entertainment as we commonly define it. It just helps people masturbate, and makes no effort to hide that fact. It openly serves a need.
I wonder what needs are being met with shows like Kanokon or DearS, or the Kiss X Sis OVAs. All the stupidity of porn without the benefits. |
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eyeofthetiger
Posts: 49 |
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*sigh* Here we go again.
Let's start ANOTHER flamewar. We clearly don't have enough of those. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Why is this of any concern to Japan, exactly? Especially since Dragonball/Z is the biggest anime in the US probably, and it's littered with fan-service.
How, exactly? The only show I would ever call dishonest is Lotte no Omocha which promised semen drinking lolis and failed to deliver in that department, but it was still an enjoyable show. How are fanservice shows being 'dishonest'? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Way to miss the point of the thread. |
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