Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Haibane Renmei.
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Watching this series for the first time, I have to say that I am interested in where this is all going. Most of the major points I was going to mention have been brought up already, I will try and get in on the action sooner next week. (I'm also still waiting on my Kino's Journey dvd's, but will play catch up on that thread when they get here.)
One thing I did notice is that it is hard to pin down the time frame for when this series takes place. The opening shows two of the characters on a vespa type scooter, yet there seems to be an overall lack of tech in the town. I assume this is just part of keeping the town isolated from the outside world, as well as allowing the focus to be on internal issues instead of material things as was mentioned before. |
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stevek504
 Posts: 216 |
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When I first started watching anime I didn't know of any other way to figure out which series I would watch next other than the trailers that they put on the DVDs I was watching. When I saw the trailer for this series, I thought I would pass on it because I feared it might have a strong (overbearing) religious theme. I don't know what made me end up renting it. I am glad I did. I count it in my personal top five, and it is the only series I own two copies of (one to lend out).
Some observations and lingering questions: One of the first things I wondered about was why the wings were gray (ash / charcoal). As I thought this was an anime about angels, why weren't the wings white? I figured I would just wait to see if it was explained, but when Kana started going on about the pitch-black wings of the crows with so much ferocity I figured that there must be something up with the wing color. I am not sure I understand this issue completely yet. It struck me as a bit curious when the guy in the used clothing store was listening to a radio. Could he pick up broadcast from beyond the wall? Was that possible or allowed? Regarding the religious theme (and some speculation on my part): >A lot of symbolism regarding birth, or rebirth. The water breaking (from the cocoon) could represent child birth and leaving the womb. The pain and blood associated with the “birth” of the wings. Water is used in baptism. >Halo, (aureoles are a common element in both Buddhist and Christian art) and wings. >Then on to leading a righteous life: Being humble / thankful for the things that are provided (a job, letting the Haibane live in the town). Humility – back to the used clothes and discarded items. Poverty – living in an abandoned house (Old Home). Randall Miyashiro mentioned that the series feels targeted towards 18-24 year olds. This dovetails with my next point (and the rest of this post). Can any discussion of this work be complete without touching on the man himself? Yoshitoshi ABe is young (relatively). I think he was in his late twenties when his first work concerning the Haibane came out. Why all this religious symbolism? Does it feel like Yoshitoshi is trying to find answers himself, and his collective works are his way of organizing his thoughts? Serial Experiments Lain spoiler[had a god-like theme], This series has angels, (though I think Yoshitoshi has said somewhere that they just happen to look like angels). NieA_7 brings up India, which makes me think of Dharmic religions. So my thoughts turn there. Purgatory was mentioned, but perhaps this should be looked at from a Buddhist prospective. Perhaps the town and the world that is the Haibane Renmei is a liberal interpretation of an intermediate state (bardo). It is said that human rebirth is the only samsaric realm from which one can directly achieve enlightenment. However, human rebirths are supposed to be a very rare occurrence. Maybe it could explain why there is just one town like this (Glie) and a small population (relative to the world)? This could even tie-in to the birth / rebirth theme. Rebirth; what cyclic existence is. And enlightenment; a liberation from the cycle. And the tie-in to leading a righteous life - all living creatures are responsible for their karma, (which is their actions and the effects) and for their release from samsara. For the righteous life tie-in: Let us live most happily, possessing nothing; let us feed on joy, like the radiant gods." (Dhammapada 15:4)) "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20) On a lighter note. Did anyone read the booklet that came with first DVD? You may want to hold off on reading it if you have it. It talks about more than what is contained in the first DVD. Maybe you should wait until you watch the whole series, then take a look at it. In the booklet, Yoshitoshi mentions the communicator's mask looks a bit like a spoon. I thought this was funny because I just finished the FLCL series last week and the Japanese commentary track made comments about spoons / sporks. 
Oh well. Maybe this is all a bit too much for this forum, or goes past the goal of the forum. Sorry, but this series made me think about a lot of things. Also, sorry if I misquoted something or someone. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Absolutely. Rakka realized, while in the cocoon, she was submerged but could still breath. A child in its mother's womb "breathes" amniotic fluid. I also find it interesting that the Haibane have a tradition of not helping the new ones out of their cocoon, like baby birds, as mentioned in the series. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Okay, G-mo, your post basically spoiled HALF the series, much less the first two episodes. I'll say it again. NO SPOILING FUTURE PARTS OF THE SERIES, TAGS OR NO TAGS. Not only is it inconsiderate to the people trying to watch this series for the first time and make speculations, but it also completely defeats the purpose of stacking layers of questions over time for better discussion, turning this into a big, muddled, typical series thread. No more. Don't do it. I don't want to make a fuss about this, but if it gets to be a problem, I might have to. I really don't want to do that. -.-'
And, BE and Stevek, you guys are fine, don't apologize, what you all are contributing is very interesting, so don't be all bashful! 
....... Do you all think the communicator is one of the Toga himself, or something else entirely? I'm not real sure myself. I guess he's the only Toga who is allowed to communicate with both sides of the wall, as I can't tell any differences, except for little visual ones... EDIT: G-mo, you didn't have to apologize, but thank you, that was very considerate of you, and I'm sorry for shouting. (Well, you can kind of call it shouting, right?) |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Man, I love re-watching this series... Hell, all of the aBe series. Haven't taken the time to space the viewing of them out before. These two episodes give a lot yet I want to continue on...
Yes! Have any of you seen a film called Afterlife? I saw this well after watching Haibane Renmei, and was struck by how similar in tone and beliefs they were, never mind the premise. I'd go on more, but it would involve spoilers from later episodes in Haibane.
I doubt he's one of the Toga. The most telling distinction is that the Communicator has wings while the Toga do not. As to what he is, I thought it fairly obvious considering the main plot point of the second half of the series... stevek504 also brings up an nice point in regards to religious perspectives in the show. While there are overt Christian symbols in the series, I never considered the series' outlook to coincide with that faith. Without going into spoilers, the most important difference is how redemption is handled, reminding me more of an Eastern perspective than a Western one. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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...I think it's obvious, too, just don't say anything too soon. 
Here's the thing, though. He has "wings," but it's just fake costume wings. That's just a uniform difference, one of the "slight appearance changes" I mentioned. I guess it dignifies him as the communicator, but I think the Toga are really an irrelevant addition to the story unless you consider that they are the same kind of beings as the communicator. (I.E. they have the same "background," but boy, that's all I can say right now.)
You know, to a degree I'd agree with you, as little to NO anime reflect the Western ideas of redemption, even those with more heavy Christian symbolism than this one, but there is one key element that makes Haibane's philosophy on redemption different from traditional Eastern views, and closer to that of Judeo-Christian views. In Shinto/standard modern Japanese mysticism, redemption can, with hard work, perseverance, and proper enlightenment, be attained for oneself eventually. Watch the rest of Haibane Renmei and see if that holds true here...(hint, hint, it doesn't, but I can't really say why for a long time yet.) |
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Xenofan 29A
 Posts: 378 |
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Netflix has it on instant viewing, apparently, so I think I'll check it out.
Very little anime has anything to do with actual Christian theology (or at least, reflects it accurately) because very few Japanese are Christian. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Yes, but they looooove Christian symbols, and use them no matter their own beliefs, whether Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, or run-of-the-mill casual Shinto-slightly spiritual Japanese citizen. I have seen Christian ideology embodied in anime before, though, and Christian symbolism doesn't always follow it. Note that I'm not talking about the creators BEING Christians, but simply having a lot of personal beliefs that coincide more with Western ideals than Eastern. It happens. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Oh, yeah, duh. Forgot that detail. In that respect, I'd say they are probably are the same. Which would explain... well, a lot of things. (Argh spoilers.)
Hm. I understand what you're saying, but still disagree (thinking about episode nine here and the interview with Ueda and ABe). We'll come to that subject later on, then. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Okay, so clearly this is a bit early, but...
HERE’S the schedule of episodes for July 7th-July 14th: Episode 3-- the Temple, Washi, pancakes Episode 4-- trash day, the clock tower, the birds exceeding the wall Episode 5-- library, the abandoned factory, the beginning of the world Episode 6-- the end of summer, rain, loss This arc focuses on all the characters, and apart from character development, leaves the plot alone, until the striking 6th episode... So, why am I early on this? I'm glad you asked...(even if you didn't, you're gonna hear about it...) My brand new laptop, which was the only thing that allowed me to keep up with all that anime going into the book thread, and allowed me the time to structure these threads...got attacked by the world's ugliest virus the other day. The kind that sends you porn and deactivates Windows Explorer. So it'll be in the can for two days getting fixed, (while my wallet is emptied of $140 in order to do so...) and I'm doing this early because I have time on Sundays midday. Without my laptop, I can't just do everything from 11-3 AM anymore...but in two days' time, I'll be able to keep up here! As such, I don't have much in the way of discussion questions yet, not being able to rewatch the anime late at night. I'll add them gradually, as I think of them...don't accidentally click on popups! That's how I got that thing! 
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION IDEAS—(Spoiler-free discussion, pleeze, and ruminate on whatever beyond these, although these are good places to start.)
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Alestal
 Posts: 605 Location: Dallas, Texas |
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This series is reallyyy slow, nothing really exciting, never understood why people love this series so much, its not very entertaining. But, it is a good series for discussion because it is very unique and mysterious.
-I found it interesting how in episode 4 Kana says that the town treats the haibane renmei as their children, and that they are extremly protective of them. -Are crows the only animals in town? They are the only things that can enter/leave the town, apparently. |
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murph76
 Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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Dogs and cats are shown too. Remember the dog growling at the Toga and Kuu playing with the cat in episode 2? I think crows get the focus, instead of birds in general, because of their importance to Rakka. I enjoyed Kana's tough love with the crows in episode 4. She doesn't like them because they make a mess of things, like the garbage. However, she respects them. She doesn't want to hinder their ability to go beyond the wall by making life to easy for them in town. I'm just now catching up on the series, and hope to particpate more in the discussion. Lots of craziness in real life has kept me from watching any of the series that we are discussing. |
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LiuXuande
 Posts: 201 Location: Chicago |
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Just wanted to say that I LOVE this topic idea (and the ones like it). One more reason ANN is awesome. I'm a bit late coming into this topic since...well, I just finished the series at 1:30 AM last night...
 But it's definitely an amazing show, and I have my own slew of theories and questions as well so I'm just gonna tag this to come back and post a shpiel later, keeping to the spoiler guidelines of course
One thing I did want to say to the current discussion though was that, and I think I read this in an ABe interview somewhere, but I'm not completely sure, that Haibane is in that sort of "spiritual but not religious" middle ground, like we often find in other anime. And to clarify, I'm using "spiritual" referring to a sort of commonly accepted (either by the world created in the story, or by us or both) set of beliefs without a specific religious name attached (like Final Fantasy games), and "religious" referring to a specific religion (like the religious references in Tokyo Majin). Though the physical similarities between Haibane and Christian "angels" are striking...I recall reading somewhere that ABe meant that as a purely aesthetic choice. Episode 5 really touches on the belief system held by the people and Haibane of Glie: spoiler[although much of the book Nemu worked on rewriting was supposition, including Rakka's input of how Haibane came to be "created", the original partial work they were trying to restore still holds questions as to how they picture "God". There's also the question of whether this book was really a defining religious text...but that's overthinking it a bit ^^;;] And in Episode 6, although the Haibane know nothing of what happens to them spoiler[when they take their flight, what do they believe happens to those that take it. Also is their gesture of prayer generic, or is there a belief system associated with that as well?] Just more stuff to think about. Great show though
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G-mofactor
 Posts: 797 Location: Atlantis to Interzone |
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Wowee! Its been a while since I have seen this place.
I have ponder through the required episodes of Haibane Renmei for this thread. People sure have a better grasp in the anime than me, that's for sure, but thats beside the point. As I was watching the show, there is a sure sign that the anime has great importance in the meaning of flight; like the crows having to freely go past the wall. Even though the Haibane have wings, they cannot use it very well, or fly. Well, those wings don't seem support an average weight, not alone a child Haibane. However, it does not hurt to question when they could fly? So, questioning flight is a way to go with the information given for just six episodes. I have already state about the Haibane's wings on how they could not stable attain flight, but not the meaning of their wings (someone else could do that). Well, there is confirmation that there are humans living in the town, living in what it seems an average life. They operate things like an oven. So, lets look at other technologies that are found in the series so far. Gears is a some kind of a form of technology, which the towns people and Haibane can use such as bicycles and clocks.spoiler[ Plus, lets thank Kanna for figuring out how a clock works.] Yes! Bicycles, a privilege item to be used by the Haibane. Although, come to think of it, humans have created bicycles in means of transportation. Then again, if you think about our real world perspective, bicycles was the basis to make an outstanding technological marvel called an aircraft; which for the most part deals with flight. I am surprise that there is no sign of an attempt in making such a thing in the anime. Alright, an aircraft might be a too far-fetched. Still, their is the motor-bike which appears to be a much higher form of technology that is used in the town, and is also a privilege. Its quite intriguing to find such a thing in the anime, but everyone has not yet question how the mechanism work. You would figure that there are other things that would be similar to it. The sky seems to be a hope for a Haibane and like them, the humans, also wonder of what is outside the walls. So, why not improvise? However, then again, Kanna did mention that once someone lives to the other side of the wall he/she may not come back again. A fear perhaps of questioning the privileges given to them may be against of tradition and that untold consequences may occur. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I believe you're barking up the wrong tree, here. There is no indication, at any time in the series, as to whether his costume's wing covers are ornamental, or do in fact contain wings, and there is one very strong bit of circumstantial evidence (from his own mouth) that he does, in fact, have wings. The state of these hypothetical wings, if any, may be inferred: black, and possibly atrophied. - abunai |
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