Forum - View topicNEWS: 5 Anime Studios Sue 4 'Heavy Downloaders' in Singapore
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Shadowlord
Posts: 37 |
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Where I live, you have to pay some Radio and television license fee to watch tv, regardless which kind of broadcasting method you use.
Then you have three choices: Watch TV via aerial broadcast (completely free), via satellite (free too - best option!) or via cable (cable fees). Okay, there's also tv via internet... Further, it is possible to subscribe to some pay-tv channels, but actually not many people do that here 
(I'm talking about Germany) |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Cable costs us money but it also costs the industry money. It's not a fair comparison to say "cable bill" when this comes up because the cable bill doesn't largely go towards the actual show itself, it goes mainly to the provider. The actual shows cost money to put on, and that's largely paid by advertisements, which are only as good as money is spent by people based on them.
In the case of fansubs, because it's all user contributed content the industry doesn't have to spend all that money to broadcast, so while they aren't gaining anything they aren't losing either. In the case of broadcast anime, I'm guessing that if many shows were actually put on cable they wouldn't make money. Sure, big ones like Naruto do, but a large number of smaller shows just can't make money in that environment. Keep in mind at least in the US that in comparison to viewership, DVD sales are not nearly as high. Most people would prefer to watch a show and could care less about ever owning it. Anime needs to get enough of a market in something that's cheaper than TV while providing viewers similar access to content. I think the internet probably will be that, over time. With a website that was well designed enough, and offered a good mix of free/ad-driven/subscription content I think it could be done. The problem now is that there are a lot of different website offerings, and ... that's of questionable value IMO. They are basically paying for duplication of effort by putting things on Youtube, Hulu, etc. etc. I think they should probably all stick with a single site personally, it would probably lower their base costs a bit. It would just have to be well advertised (which could be done largely through word of mouth. Youtube became what it is primarily based on that, but it's quality leaves something to be desired generally). |
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Greed1914
 Posts: 4449 |
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That's all assuming that people aren't using fansubs a substitute for paying for some stuff. If a person says, "I could buy it, but I'd rather just take it for free," then they would be out something. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Adds OVerman King Gainer 4 & Panda Z 5 that arrived yesterday from RightStuf to the 2300 other dvds on the list that represents my collection which I've managed to accumulate without ever downloading.
You know, I'm probably more in the old VHS fansubber code group. Back when I was heavily buying metal, I always figured if I liked a band enough to say I loved them, then I wanted to buy their records to support them & I called the station requesting their songs & I told other people they should buy the band's records. I wanted to show my appreciation to the band so they would be able to quit their day jobs & make more music for their fans. I really can't wrap my head around the more selfish modern fans who seem to suck it all up & not feel any compunction over what they're probably doing to the industry. All these things represent people's livelyhood. If one wants more fruit, one has to water & nourish the tree. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Would you care to explain to me how I can say something like "prostitution and drugs aren't quite comparable to fansubbing", (that is to say that prostitution and drugs are legal issues that conflict with personal freedom and that these are issues surrounded by truly atrocious histories whereas fansubbing is not a matter of personal freedom insomuch as it is an issue of copyright infringement, yes?) and then you blitzkrieg me with a bunch of legal ammunition that deals with the legal status of prostitution in the US? That has nothing to do with the content of my words. I regret muttering about Amsterdam and Vegas if that triggered your tidal response. To quote the late George Carlin, "[expletive]'s legal...selling stuff is legal...why isn't selling [expletive] legal?!". I don't think anyone has any right to control the actions of other people, unless of course their actions are to the detriment of others. Nothing contradicts that more than the archaic traditional nonsense that still perverts legal systems to this day. I thought what you said was in bad taste; it evoked real revulsion in me to think that someone could somehow think that something as pedestrian as fansubbing is on the same level as the constriction of personal freedom and the huge mess that is. I thought I could at least do you the courtesy of pointing that out. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Yes, but there are a few things to note about this response 1) It's not just important that they could buy it, but would they buy it? If it's so unimportant that they "take it for free" then I don't think they would buy it even if they couldn't download it. They'd move on to something else. 2) It's not like this money they don't spend on anime goes nowhere. They are more than likely spending it on something they value more than anime. Now let me say, I'm a downloader that likes anime a great deal, so I spend a lot on anime as well. I don't support people not buying anything if they have watched entire series (especially multiple times) or not contributing to what they value more. It's stupid for themselves and it's also bad for everyone else who likes what they do or makes what they like. It's not so much selfish as it is idiotic.
I don't think I ever heard a comment that one cannot buy without downloading fansubs, so this comment is just... blatant "bragging" of some sort. The point was that they aren't mutually exclusive unless the person chooses them to be. Obviously you have, but that doesn't mean everyone else will. |
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jhuhn
 Posts: 147 |
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I always go by the way for "Eyes only, do not copy" as I don't frequently download videos. They should allow upload to streaming and prohibit downloading to others, webstram is "eyes only" anyway and cannot be copied. Of course advertisements can be helpful as well.
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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YOU trotted out the whole "This particular instance of prostitution &/or legalized drug use works so it will work everywhere" line, but the fact is at least on the prostitution side it is a thoroughly regulated form which would be more comparable to the anime studios themselves & their licensed representatives (such as Funimation) streaming/downloading/etc. Regulated, controlled by "The Man", whatever. Following that comparison fansubbing would be the shady, still largely illegal street prostitution side of the deal having nothing to do with the official state-approved version. MY WHOLE POINT ORIGINALLY was the tired old line "You can never, ever, ever stop us from downloading! Freedom! Equality! Off with the heads of all the nobles! We will bring down all the anime licensees in the Americas & then anime will be free for us to download!" (Yes, when Geneon went down I did see that exact sentiment about downloading anime with impunity because there would be no more US licenses to stop them expressed more than once) MY POINT BEING just as people always say we should legalize prostitution & drugs because the buyers of these services/products are only hurting themselves--they aren't. We are seeing the impact of the massive downloading on the anime industry in Japan & inthe US. Was that Gonzo that just announced halving their production next year? ADV trying to crawl out of their hole. (Geneon I still put more in the hands of Dentsu working in the background, but even if one wants to say it was the lack of profit that produced that response in Dentsu & not Dentsu looking at the US economy & figuring it was due to implode at any moment-which it did, didn't it?-again, one can lay that on the downloaders impacting sales that caused the lack of sales.) Prostitution & drugs have the people damaged by the ripple effect also. the family members of the people involved. The victims of crimes committed to pay for some of these things. With downloading fansubs, it's the lower levels of anime production--the guys not making big bucks. I remember reading for all the big name VA's in Japan, the average daily salary is $100 for voicing these shows. Yeah, that's more than our minimum wage, but it being piece work, there's also no guarantee these people are working every day. Look at the amount of titles the more prolific VA's pump out & it's pretty obvious they're doing 2-4 titles a week so the same has to apply to the lower echelons-IF they can find full-time work in the field. Same for the artists slaving away to make it all looks good. Fansubs are eating into the studios' profits so they can't invest in as much anime so, sorry, half the production crew is not needed any longer. Go try to find work somewhere else, except all the studios are cutting back, so now instead of their dream jobs, all these guys/gals have to hopefully find work somewhere else.
And I am DEEPLY, DEEPLY offended by the callous attitude of fansub downloaders that what they are doing ISN'T putting hardworking REAL PEOPLE out of work. Been there, done that. I've been in a hotel, looking at living in a car if a job wasn't located by Friday. I think one of the things that horrified me most about Palin was the undercurrent in her ways--firing people who don't conform to her ways/tell me the name of who said this or that so I can fire them. These people have lives & bills & everything & don't deserve to be fired because she feels they don't support her because they won't remove a book from a library shelf. People like her horrify me because I have spent a part of my life on the welfare line & it is frightening & horrible. The fansub downloaders act as though they aren't harming anyone, but they are-real people losing their livelyhood is pretty impacted from my perspective. I've seen ddownloaders callously talk about the anime studios in the same perspective as the Railroads in the Wild West-they DESERVE to be taken down. It's just as horrible as all the kids growing up without their own parents thanks to drug use. Some days it seems we've lost an entire generation of parents when I'm talking to parents of adult drug users who are saddled with bringing up their grandchildren because my clients are more interested in how much meth they can get into their bodies than caring for their own children. But, yeah, by all means consider it as JUST
Damn those ripple effects, right? |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1454 |
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95% off of anime titles until NOV 25th via Right Stuf.com
...Random post, but yah. *flees* |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Need glasses? Up to 95% off MSRP of the BARGAIN BIN Stuff like individual dvds of shows that have been boxed. Stuff Right Stuf has already dropped down to somewhere around $10 per dvd just to get rid of them (Are they ever going to get rid of those lone Generator Gawl dvds? There's only 1 of the 4 volumes available) So if you're trying to suggest this is yet another reflection of the fall of the American anime industry.... Don't think so. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Yeah, I looked through that stuff and there were some good deals in there, but I was too late for the couple of complete box sets available. Which was no big deal because I don't mind paying more for the Funimation re-release of Utawarerumono, but meh.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Right. I'm trying to be cooperative here. I'm not making a statement about the morality of fansubbing or protesting the legality of prostitution, even though I mentioned my feelings about that. I only ever said anything because I thought it peculiar you would want to group fansubs with prostitution and drugs. I'm getting flashbacks of Sesame Street here. You've got businesses losing money and then the sexual and pharmaceutical debaucheries of the criminal underworld...one of these things is not like the other. So I put it on the table that I find this strange, and all of the explanations you provide don't even acknowledge the problem I ran into with what you said in the first place. I may not be fully retarded, and if we run with that possibility maybe I'm worth salvaging. I get as far as your saying "fansubs do cause real problems", but you didn't say that these problems were greater than those surrounding drugs and prostitution. You originally caught my interest when you made remarks that indicated you did think the victims of fansubbing were damaged to the same extent as the victims of illegal drug trafficking and the sex trade. I was under the impression that being beaten into a cripple or dying in a pool of your own vomit was generally worse than losing your job and/or being forced to live in a car. I'm not trying to be nitpicky or anything like that; I think it's entirely relevant to this thread that fansubs are definately crimes that obviously need to be deal with, but at the same time the severity of the crime is debatable, isn't it? I mean, do some people actually think something along the lines of the RIAA's draconian lawsuits are the proper way to deal with these fansubbing? Seems like you'd get less for murder. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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But you only seem to be looking at the first layer of things.
Because you obviously have never had to suffer homelessness or the constant fear homelessness is right around the corner if you cannot comprehend how destabilizing it is to people. Removing the mentally ill homeless from the picture (who are there because there's no money for state hospitals, etc), many homeless ar ethere due to a bad luck-lost job, thus lost home & possessions. Can you understand how completely, thoroughly degrading it can be? Can't shower. How can you get another job if you have no phone for a callback? Particularly to children in this situation--often school is no longer an option as parents move all over town to avoid hassles with CPS or the law over parking for more than 3 days, vagrancy, etc. So losing that job is often the first step to a very horribly mental state for many of these people. Downloaders just tend to be too caught up in their inalienable right to see all the anime they want to that they don't look beyond the surface as they make their excuses as to why downloading isn't stealing.
I work in law enforcement. I speak with convicted felons every day at my work. They all like to minimize their crimes. What they did wasn't that bad. In fact, long before I took this job I recognized that as a very common human response "Why are you giving me a ticket for speeding? Everyone else is doing it. Why don't you go bust a prostitute?" There's ALWAYS someone who did a worse thing that should be paying for their sins more than most people caught & punished for crimes. Running into the rare parties willing to accept they are FULLY responsible in total for their own crimes is far less common. It's their friends who made them do it. It's their parents' fault. They aren't bad people. They aren't criminals. Why should they pay when worse criminals aren't or worse criminals get a slap on the wrist? But you know what? Look at the common excuse "There's too many of us, they can't catch us all" My ORIGINAL point-law enforcement has to start somewhere & just keep whittling away. You act like they should just enforce some of the laws-the laws YOU think need to be enforced, but all of the laws are there for a reason, whether good or bad & deserve to be enforced or the citizens should vote to change them. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Well said, although in the city where I live I would point to short-term greediness of our local politicians as the real reasons for homelessness beyond the default homelessness you can find anywhere. I wonder if that's true of major US cities as well.
I don't approve of the "mass-ignorance excuse" any more than you do, but I do think it's important to have priorities. If certain crimes become more popular to the legal system than others, that's a mistake. Joblessness has a lot of factors working for it, and fansubbing is only a part of that equation. Sometimes I get the impression that it is the case though, that some crimes go punished because of private interests and not public ones. Do you think difficult cases should be avoided for the availability of easier ones? |
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tygerchickchibi
Posts: 1454 |
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Er, items in the Bargain Bin are ANIME TITLES. Why are you being hostile for me for no reason? =/ I did say it was a random post, and even if I didn't type it in the way that you did, people could have still went on the site and saw the advertisement, and click to find the titles that were listed/qualified for the discount. Am I wrong?
I didn't imply anything. You assumed a lot out of a simple post, though.
I wanted to get Lain, I actually ended up buying only a few titles because I don't have any funds until Next week. x_x Did you manage to at least find something that you may have liked? |
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