Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Higurashi: When They Cry – SOTSU
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Nate148
Posts: 478 |
|
|||||||||
|
also the Umineko anime we got was garbage so yea
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
JoelBurger
|
|
|||||||||
Gou and Sotsu had been telling the reader to read up on Umineko since the very beginning with the first OP. The connection between the two is hardly tentative or tenuous, nor was it ever, and people had ample time to check out Umineko (readily accessible through multiple channels and multiple mediums in English). I don't know why anybody would be shocked to see highly metaphorical fights at this stage. |
||||||||||
|
Florete
Posts: 364 |
|
|||||||||
|
Yeah, this is where the series lost me. The episodes leading up to this definitely could have been improved and condensed, but I was still on board. But this is just too much. Higurashi has always had its craziness, but it was, so to speak, always consistent in its level of craziness, and this episode just went far beyond that level. That aside, I don't think I'll be happy with an ending that keeps Rika and Satoko together. Their relationship needs to be done after this, one way or another.
Also, to those it may concern, please shut the **** up about Umineko, yikes. I don't know Umineko, I don't care about Umineko, and if the answer to these issues is "go read 100 hours of visual novel of something else," then that just lowers my opinion of all this even further. Some mild references and connections are fine, actually relying on each other to make sense is not. I just want to see Rika's story. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2341 |
|
|||||||||
|
Despite not being an Umineko fan (meaning that I've never seen or spent time with it, not that I dislike it), I like the idea of tying the universes together more deeply. I'm always kind of a sucker for large interconnected fiction-verses, especially ones that aren't obviously so in the beginning.
My problem with the Super Saiyan battle isn't that it connects the two franchises directly, but that it just comes across as poorly written, over-the-top satire. It completely throws away the sense of verisimilitude that came from Higurashi being mostly grounded with just light fantasy elements; that bit of realism was extremely important to making the drama and horror in the show work. Without it (and, especially, tearing it away so suddenly and with little apparent purpose, even actively undermining important prior themes and Satoko's character arc to do so), Higurashi just feels ridiculous -- like watching someone's fan-fiction ersatz Higurashi Youtube side project, not the well-financed culmination of more than a decade of systematic, careful narrative build-up. And this isn't helped by (1) the writing of Satoko's side of the dispute being utterly uncompelling, to the point that she sounds like she's making fun of herself when arguing with Rika ("I really hate studying!" indeed), or (2) the Super Saiyan battle itself not being especially well animated, and (3) kind of coming out of nowhere (we'd gotten a glimpse or two of Satoko showing superhuman physical prowess as her witch-factor or whatever increases, but by-and-large the show had still mostly kept the magic restricted to the time-travel/world-jumping gimmick). Or by (4) the goofy-evil villain-witch lady just chilling on a bed cackling while she watches her crystal TV and magically ties up little Hanyuu on a cross (seriously, what would the story lose by not having them in it?). Or, of course, by (5) the various other complaints people have leveled over the course of the season -- especially that the writing of the mysteries was much shallower and less interesting or subtle than in prior seasons. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
kyokun47
 Posts: 231 |
|
|||||||||
I also forgot where I saw this, but someone had brought up the sequence where they beat each other up through loops and that they can't believe that they would do something like that for visual flair alone since their looping has already had well-established rules. I 100% think it was just for the spectacle and I respect it for that much, since I found the sequence visually engaging before, well... DBZ antics. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
DRosencraft
Posts: 666 |
|
|||||||||
|
I have no problem with any desire to link Higurashi to Umineko, because it is abundantly apparent to anyone who has engaged in Umineko that there is some connection. But if you're going to connect them, then actually do it. Don't just name drop tidbits, toss in hefty room for supposition, and then abandon your duty as a storyteller to actually tell the story. If you are making an anime, and it doesn't make any sense unless someone has to refer to anything other than a prior installment of the anime, or an already planned and announced sequel, then I'm sorry, you've done a terrible job planning and executing your anime. You refused to do the work of finding a way of presenting the complete story you needed to present. If all you have to offer is for folks to go to the source material, those people have next to no reason to have ever given your anime a watch at all, and you've only served to waste their time.
After spinning its wheels for so many episodes retreading material that has already been animated and known to the audience not just this season, but from prior anime in the series, you cannot tell me they didn't have the time to put in more detail, more of anything, that would actually help the story along better if making some grand Umineko tie-in was the goal. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Gem-Bug
 Posts: 1230 |
|
|||||||||
Pretty much this. It doesn't help that even a cursory look into Umineko has people spoiling the goddamn ending and everything else for you right away. You literally have to sink the aforementioned 100+ hours into reading the VN, blind, with only the opinion of others that "you're going to love this thing SO much". All to culminate in the reveal that(Umi spoilers)spoiler[The main antagonist has been two of the other, tertiary characters the whole time, and their reason for everything they do is based solely on a throwaway line from a flashback heard early on. Wow. That is some high art.]
I agree with everything you said, too. If connecting the two series really was the goal, it definitely could have been done in a less dog shit way; staying true to what makes Higurashi great while still staying within it's boundaries/rules. This episode(and to a lesser extent, these two seasons) throws everything out the window. I have little hope for any kind of decent resolution next week. And honest to god, if Umineko is such a masterpiece, why hasn't it gotten a continuation, or a remake, or -anything- beyond re-releases of the VN in the last 10+ years? I'd watch it! I -liked- the anime! I know the last bit of it changes(or butchers) the part of the material it's adapting, but they could pull a Blue Exorcist Kyoto and just retcon a handful of episodes. 
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
danpmss
 Posts: 771 |
|
|||||||||
|
I've been kinda annoyed with people shitting on Sotsu for the over-the-top epic battle, because they are essentially shitting on BOTH Higurashi and Umineko (and to an extent any Ryukishi epic climax), while saying "this isn't Higurashi, ruined!". Yes, not JUST Umineko.
Like, SERIOUSLY? Are you REALLY all forgetting how all WTC finales so far went up to this point?? Ryukishi ALWAYS escalates from just how much something is grounded or not, to the over-the-top craze fest they can become later in the climax based on that. 1- Higurashi? For a minor early example, Tsumi has a long af battle shounen roof battle out of nowhere, after 5 serious business grounded arcs. But that's not even when it really escalated, because after introducing supernatural elements in Minagoroshi, it went full deus ex machina craziness with supernatural powers by the end, making sense in context (it's a literal Goddess doing business). Transferring memories and life experience from another world to a person's brain for them to kick some kung fu ass in the world you are in with no foreshadowing whatsoever AND going full JoJo with ZA WARUDO bullets at the very end of the climax? Yeah, definitely super grounded compared to all that came before, I won't even start with Satoko's traps working against trained counter-intelligence forces (at least that one got some foreshadowing despite being comic relief lol). 2- Umineko? spoiler[From the start has crazy magic bullshit going on (arguably escalating from Matsuribayashi as WTC3), which makes sense in context (subverted magic realism). In the end escalated all that in the most shounen power way possible (still making sense in context). In there even with all the craziness that escalated to comedic levels in EP4, EP8 topped everything with the chuuni-est battle shounen he has ever written, and it was glorious. ] 3- Newgurashi? From the start has all the crazy bullshit prestablished from Matsuribayashi finale in mind (+Saikoroshi) and rolls with it as a premise. Much more supernatural stuff in general even from episode 2 of Gou. Finale? After building up for several episodes a Witch existence going over the top like all hell, it escalates the already established crazy stuff into even crazier stuff, which net us to the DBZ epic battle with them using Eua's and Hanyuu's powers and clothes (again, making as much sense in context as the others). By far the most fun animated Ryukishi thing so far imo (can only be topped by the Umineko bonkery in the VNs). TL;DR If you guys hated this episode for going over-the-top bonkers, you may as well just hate Ryukishi's epic finales in general. They escalate all the same from their established base premise. This was as WTC as it gets. Newgurashi is escalating from Matsuribayashi's content from the get-go, of course it will get its epic climax with much more supernatural content (it has been building up on that during its entirety), even because by all means, it seems to be a bridge to the further escalation in Umineko (albeit with its own set of rules and regards). "This is not like Higurashi", now that's rich lol |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Sven Viking
Posts: 1039 |
|
|||||||||
Wow, that’s looking very plausible. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
kyokun47
Posts: 231 |
|
|||||||||
This is a new season of HIGURASHI, and if they want to tie every other WTC franchise into it too, then they needed to do a better job at both telling people that and actually doing it, cause the teasing of names and terms is getting old. Not everyone has the time to read through an entire set of other visual novels, and expecting others to know the lore of those despite being told multiple times that they are NOT NECESSARY is both bad and inaccessible writing/advertising. If these battles are present in Umineko, then I'd have LESS issues with them being there because Umineko is not Higurashi. They are two entirely separate works and if R07 is trying to blend them together now, he's doing a horrible job and people are entirely justified for being disappointed because they were expected to do homework that was never assigned. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
MagicianMan
Posts: 122 |
|
|||||||||
See, this is exactly the attitude that this:
is talking about. And the harder you try to push that angle the lamer it gets. You're right, I don't like the other WTC stories. I have read most of Umineko and I think it's pretentious, overwrought garbage that has some interesting ideas mixed in. I think it has the same problem that a lot of Japanese VN do: it tries to make a philosophical mountain out of a molehill of fairly simple concepts. Higurashi was a lot more down to earth with the fantastical elements kept in the background for most of the story. Yes, it does kick things up a notch for the climax, but I think there's slight difference in scale between catching the Banken in Satoko's traps verses flying through the multiverse with a god-killing sword. As far as putting the author's writing on a pedestal, a story isn't immune to being reduced in quality by it's own creator. Ask Star Wars fans about the love/hate relationship they had with George Lucas for decades over his revisionism of that story and setting. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
danpmss
Posts: 771 |
|
|||||||||
My point is about proving exactly the opposite, they should by ALL MEANS expect this to come from Higurashi. Especially when the OG went from a completely grounded psychological horror mystery to alien parasyte talk, mystery drug X, shounen battles, multidimensional reality-shifting Goddess doing crazy stuff and comic relief traps working on trained counter-intelligence agents. While in here it went from crazy multidimensional reality-shifting Goddess doing crazy stuff to "two" multidimensional reality-shifting Goddess doing crazy stuff. Even if you COMPLETELY ignore Umineko doing the same with its completely different settings and rules, this is as in line with Higurashi as a sequel as it gets, down to its pattern of escalating into an over-the-top finale (compared to what came before it). If anything, it's vastly more consistent than the OG Higurashi ever was in tone for most of its run. Once it introduced supernatural stuff in Minagoroshi, Matsuribayashi went absolutely bonkers with whatever was possible to do with a multidimensional Goddess (and that's ignoring the minor escalation with Tsumihoroboshi with the alien stuff and the 5 hours long chapter with the overly long rooftop shounen battle climax). And surprise surprise, time and time again Ryukishi write things like this for the finale, people go with the very same reaction on the internet (ever since Tsumihoroboshi, which almost made him quit writing altogether, if you take a look on his old blog posts). Except in here people are saying it has nothing to do with Higurashi, when by all means it does, almost everything relevant in Newgurashi came from VN information that the old anime either skipped or barely covered well: How the virus work, how the Onigari-no-Ryuou work, how the whole kakera business work even retroactively, how the Witch alter ego thing work and how it gets separated from the looper as an entity after an internal existential conflict, like what happened with Rika in Saikoroshi (which the anime adaptation skipped not only that but the entire Bernkastel character arc and poems, barely touching upon it during Saikoroshi, with part of the Onigari plot/Hanyuu background, revisited a bit in Sotsu ep 12), and exactly what happened to Satoko in Sotsu as well. The whole stuff having to do with the WTC franchise in Sotsu so far were just little teases that have nothing to do with the plot nor interfer on it in any way whasoever. You can remove those mentions completely and still have essentially the same plot being presented. From the start this is using things from the VN and expanding upon the first anime on what it missed (even those new slice of life moments are almost all from there, with the exception of the first episode's). Newgurashi exclusively uses stuff from the OG Higurashi, including the thing the first anime messed up the most, unreliable perspectives (there's a huge plot whole in Onikakushi because of that, since they skipped the pen punishment with Tomitake during the Watanagashi). And how you ask? Keiichi and every single character is infected from the very start, but some are much more prone to get it going with hallucinations at ease (specially Keiichi, Rena and Satoko, the latter being borderline and constantly injecting herself 2-3 times a day). The injection only accelerates the stages, while losing too much body fluids, raising stress levels considerably in one go and anything that may damage their mental state can put then to hallucinate and become psychotic, As for example, K1 immediately hallucinating with Teppei's body thinking he was attacking him, after Satoko hit him from behind with a bat after turn on the lights. Literally every single thing that has been escalating to this moment in Sotsu is old stuff from the original Higurashi experience, even the Witch thing and magical sword. And about the supposed "plot-hole" with the sword not appearing in Watadamashi? Yeah, EVEN THAT is something already covered in the very finale of the OG Higurashi visual novel (the sword will only reappear in the human realm from the statue's head hatching in half when "the Furude family or when the world of man commits the foolish act of seeking to blame others and tries to return to the world of demons...", which is quite what happened in here, with Satoko being the "child of Man" do to it embracing her Witch side (pun intended). That's something that seemingly had nothing to do with the story up to that point (literally the second to final TIP you can even get in the VN, after the end) which was a grim tease of something real dark coming up after the finale (which ended up being the plot of Newgurashi). In conclusion, every single thing that happened in Sotsu, especially this episode, were to be expected from the start giving consideration the Original Higurashi experience. If you deny that, you are cherrypicking what was part of that experience and what you wish it wasn't, at this point, it's all from there, and has little to do with Umineko (I only used Umineko to prove a point about storytelling patterns).
Everything I just said above apply to this also. You guys are comically missing the point trying to make it seem like I'm throwing Umineko into the mix as an "essential", which is just putting words in my mouth when I said THE VERY OPPOSITE. The storytelling pattern for the finale is the same, I made it clear Umineko has its own set of rules and settings that have nothing to do with Higurashi, from which Sotsu never even used a single thing other than shout-outs that might as well not be in there (they were mostly for Ciconia, anyway), for how much importance they hold to understand the plot, they are extras. This was all on Higurashi stuff, and if you dislike it, you essentially dislike that part of the Higurashi stuff (and of any WTC story climax from Ryukishi so far including Sotsu, and even some other non-WTC stories of his). Fittingly enough, you prove that much by yourself just now, so I have nothing else to add on that matter. Nobody is saying crap about this being a thing for people who know about the other stuff (the author said himself they are just nods and that this works just fine without any of the shoutouts, much like Umineko work just fine without Higurashi and Ciconia as well without both (so far anyway), they are connected in very subtle ways). Nor putting the author in a pedestal for that matter, I'm literally exemplifying how it always has been whether you despise that or not, so miss me with strawman argument there. Last edited by danpmss on Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2341 |
|
|||||||||
|
Those text boxes are getting pretty long, would be nice if you'd snip them when quoting.
For what it's worth, I have no idea what's in the VNs, original Higurashi or otherwise. My complaint that the Super Saiyan Satoko-Rika battle was an abrupt and poorly written change for the nature of Higurashi is in relation to the original few anime series (and to a lesser extent from the pre-mid-air-flying-shounen-battles parts of Gou and Sotsu, I suppose), and just the anime series. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
kyokun47
Posts: 231 |
|
|||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
MagicianMan
Posts: 122 |
|
|||||||||
|
You misunderstood my last point. I didn't articulate it well, so fair enough. You kept saying Ryukishi writes this, Ryukishi writes that. What I was saying is that the author can do wrong by their own work. So just because Ryukishi "subverted our expectations" intentionally doesn't make that a good decision.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group