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Melanchthon wrote:

The magical girl genre, however, is almost exclusively targeted at Type B's, and let's face it, lolicons. I watch something like Nanoha for it's good storytelling, but Nanoha is popular because of the third-grade titties (My favorite is Strikers, because I liked seeing Nanoha and Fate as adults, but most Type B's hated it because they weren't magical girls anymore). Madoka's take on the magical girl is not particular innovative or visionary, but the execution and direction is what makes it transcend into a great overall anime.

Uh. no.

I wish people would realize magical girl exists beyond Nanoha (and recently Madoka) there's tons of magical girl shows out there aimed at little girls currently in Japan. Ever popular PreCure franchise, Pretty Rhythm, Jewelpet, and so forth. Magical girl aimed at otaku is far in the minority, especially if everyone keeps resorting to the same show (Nanoha) to prove a point.

Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

Melanchthon wrote:

So in summary:
Is Madoka marketed toward Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka merchandise aimed at Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka a Type B anime: No

I agree with this. PMMM has many elements of Type B, and it has drawn a huge Type B audience, but its mood, themes and story execution are all Type A.

Melanchthon wrote:

So in summary:
Is Madoka marketed toward Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka merchandise aimed at Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka a Type B anime: No

I am not following the logic. If the first two statements are yes then the final statement would also be a yes.

A problem would a rise when people who are not Type B find a Type B show entertaining and don't want their non-Type B status associated with a Type B show.

Well Madoka was ment to be a reconstruction on the genre right? So part of the whole experience was to be familiar of the usual formulae, characters, and magic, and a willingness to explore and accept some complex philosophy. If you look at it in that way it is pretty similar to say Haruhi Suzumiya.

Then you have lots of hiden messages that called fans into getting the alphabet which translated into German which could reveal stories aswell as the names of the Witches and their Familiars. Oh and past Homura was pretty moe, garunteed sucess with otaku audiences.

I don't think the fact of being an otaku show should lessen it. I read somewhere that it was apparently pretty popular with normal highschool girls.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

I am not following the logic. If the first two statements are yes then the final statement would also be a yes.

Not true. The show is undoubtedly Type A, because it cleverly and brutally deconstructs a Type B sort of show. But the marketing is aimed at those fans with lots of cash, lots of passion and not much sense, A.K.A. Type B fans. Hence the merchandising push.

I don't really agree with the Type A/Type B distinction, but for the purpose of the discussion, it was aimed at both. Just like Macross F is aimed at both, just like Code Geass is aimed at both.

I don't think the creators use that distinction, it's a 2ch thing. There are several interests among the otaku, some shows cater at only a couple of those and more ambitious projects tend to try and draw in as many audiences as possible. Madoka was definitely of the more ambitious types.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

Melanchthon wrote:

So in summary:
Is Madoka marketed toward Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka merchandise aimed at Type Bs: Yes
Is Madoka a Type B anime: No

I am not following the logic. If the first two statements are yes then the final statement would also be a yes.

It's simple. The marketing is aimed at a subset of the overall audience: The group of people who will spend the most money on it as a franchise, not the group of people who will simply enjoy the show as a show. So, no, the merchandising and marketing does not the show make (remember, most of this stuff has all come after the show).

Let's use something a little closer to home as an example... do you mean to say that a movie like The Dark Knight is only for comic book nerds who buy Batman action figures and that it can't be appreciated on its own merits by people who don't care about Batman as a franchise?

dtm42 wrote:

ArsenicSteel wrote:

I am not following the logic. If the first two statements are yes then the final statement would also be a yes.

Not true. The show is undoubtedly Type A, because it cleverly and brutally deconstructs a Type B sort of show. But the marketing is aimed at those fans with lots of cash, lots of passion and not much sense, A.K.A. Type B fans. Hence the merchandising push.

Sorry I am only dealing with the Type Bs and non-Type Bs from Melanchthon's post. I don't know where this Type A stuff comes from.

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It's simple. The marketing is aimed at a subset of the overall audience: The group of people who will spend the most money on it as a franchise, not the group of people who will simply enjoy the show as a show. So, no, the merchandising and marketing does not the show make (remember, most of this stuff has all come after the show).

A show being marketed to Type Bs make it a Type B show, period. That however does not exclude the show from grabbing a wider audience than intended. I can't believe you are trying to separate those who spend money from those who enjoy it. This isn't SatAM cartoons where the parents are the ones buying goods for the children. Late night anime watchers are the ones who buy the goods and are the ones enjoying the shows. It is just too convenient and feels like what you people mean to say is "All late night anime get otaku anime unless I like it."
I think you people are over-complicating some very simple facts just to talk your way around the truth. Madoka is an otaku show and one of the biggest moe shows of the year.

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Let's use something a little closer to home as an example... do you mean to say that a movie like The Dark Knight is only for comic book nerds who buy Batman action figures and that it can't be appreciated on its own merits by people who don't care about Batman as a franchise?

I don't know how a Hollywood movie of a comic book franchise is an accurate analogy. It's been clear since the first X-Men movie that Hollywood has been marketing those movies at the general public and have only retained enough comic boob facade not to drive the nerds insane.

Blarg... had a reply typed up and my power went out before I could post it... let's see if I can remember what I had...

Anyway, ArsenicSteel, I'm not sure if you misunderstood my point of my previous post (because you seem to agree on one point) or not so here's a little more in-depth:

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A show being marketed to Type Bs make it a Type B show, period.

I disagree. Marketing is about knowing how to sell something as something it might or might not actually be, or selling something based only on certain parts of it. You know, like how Kyubey does with the girls. Madoka was not designed as a 'Type B show', but it has things in it that 'Type Bs' like, and there exists the marketing hook. The marketing for something--for anything, especially something like this--should never be taken at face value, nor should something's marketing used to target one group of people be used to define the thing in question. As dtm42 said a few posts up, "PMMM has many elements of Type B, and it has drawn a huge Type-B audience, but its mood, themes and story execution are [not Type B]."

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I think you people are over-complicating some very simple facts just to talk your way around the truth. Madoka is an otaku show and one of the biggest moe shows of the year.

My intent was not to argue with you on these points (because it is hugely popular with otaku, and it does have some rather moe character designs), but rather to point out that if we accept the stance that Madoka's intended audience was the anime otaku crowd, we should also accept that the show still has appeal outside that audience, as you agree. Just because it has a large following of otaku and has "moe" elements doesn't mean someone who isn't an otaku and who doesn't like "moe" won't like the show. Most of the friends who I watched the show with as it aired are such people (don't watch much anime, don't like moe), and they all loved the show. I'll quote the author himself on this (from episode 4's commentary) along with the included TL note.

Chiwa: But, guys... well, since we consisted of nothing but women in the booth, we had no second opinions, but do you think the viewpoints differ (between male and female viewers)?

Gen: Right, well, really, umm... Uhh, well certainly, as for what was paid attention to this time... This wasn't really made with appeal to guys in mind.

Chiwa: Ahhh, really?

Gen: If you were a boy watching, they would simply want to see nothing but pretty girls talking, anyways.

Chiwa: From a girl's perspective, it's really like "Ahhhh!"

Ao: Yeah, that's right.

Gen: No, this connects with the audition conversation from before, too... Really, for the person you call a "protagonist", everyone keeps them in their conscious... For example when there is a scene where she's alone in her own room; from a guy's viewpoint, what he'll feel is the acting. You know that's natural, since you're watching something "distant" on TV. But uhh, we went without that feeling. Unintentionally, even when they're acting alone, they'll see cute acting come out.

TL Note: I interpret this talk that Urobuchi-san is giving to mean something like "There's no pandering to guys, it was just written and casted solely based on girls acting like girls; and, a side effect of that will be a very natural feeling, which guys will unintentionally but inevitably find appealing anyways." In other words, for guys, moe characters were crafted without even attempting to be moe. GJ! I really, really get this feeling with Mami-san, especially. It's true for the whole cast, though.

Even though it does kinda give off that "made just for them (otaku, your Type B in particular)" impression, I don't think the show was made "just for them." You said "A problem would a rise when people who are not Type B find a Type B show entertaining and don't want their non-Type B status associated with a Type B show." but if anything I think in Madoka's case it's more two things going on, both of which work on the opposite premise that Madoka is, in fact, not a 'Type B' show: 1) Type B people find non-Type B show entertaining and then absorb it into Type B culture, and 2) Non-Type B people find non-Type B show entertaining, and don't want to see the show represented as Type B, when that wasn't the intention but rather a sort of aftereffect of a passionate and vocal group of fans.

The creators have said they did not expect a hit. They were not planning all this merchandising before-hand (hoping for it, probably, sure). All this stuff has followed as a result of its popularity among the groups of people who will spend money on all this stuff. The show didn't launch on-air alongside waves and waves of otaku-aimed merchandise; that stuff came as a direct response to all the fans hungry for Madoka *stuff*

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I can't believe you are trying to separate those who spend money from those who enjoy it.

You bet I separate them. It boils down, more or less, to three groups... A) those who aren't "otaku" or "anime fans" but saw the show (probably by word of mouth) and liked it, and then move on, B) those who saw the show, may or may not be fans of the medium in general, and will likely take a step beyond simply watching the show once (such as buying the show, etc.), and C) those hardcore fans who will enjoy spending a lot of time and money on the franchise. Now, it's anyone's guess as to what the ratios of A:B:C are in Madoka's fanbase, but that's not the point; the point is that groups B and C are who the marketing is targeting. From a marketing standpoint how can you not separate them?

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Late night anime watchers are the ones who buy the goods and are the ones enjoying the shows

The initial airing, maybe, sure, but what about all those people watching streams, downloading the episodes, borrowing the show from their friends, etc.? They might like the show, too, right?

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I don't know how a Hollywood movie of a comic book franchise is an accurate analogy.

Yes, the analogy was intentionally exaggerated and it breaks down, but boil it down and the point is still made. You don't have to be a lore-steeped comic book fan who cosplays and collects superhero action figures to enjoy TDK. You don't have to be a magical girl anime scholar who cosplays and collects doujinshi to enjoy Madoka.

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As dtm42 said a few posts up, "PMMM has many elements of Type B, and it has drawn a huge Type-B audience, but its mood, themes and story execution are [not Type B]."

This is assuming(more like manufacturing a difference) there is a typical theme or story execution that makes a show Type B. This is partly where the over-complication of what a Type B show is takes place. The themes/story telling among Ebichi, NGE, and FLCL are all different but these are still otaku shows because of who the intended audience was not because of how these individual shows were executed.

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Just because it has a large following of otaku and has "moe" elements doesn't mean someone who isn't an otaku and who doesn't like "moe" won't like the show.

It is this fact that is tripping up people who don't want there fandom associated with otaku. Moe is a feeling and aesthetic that creators can pursue purposefully to cash in on the trend or it can be obtained without such a pursuit as explained by Urobuchi-san. The only definition of moe folks on ANN seem to be accustomed with is moe that is forced into a show in order to be trendy. There are shows like PMMM that incite "protective feelings" in the viewers and that's more inline with the original intention of the term.

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The creators have said they did not expect a hit.

Which means they were only expecting to attract late night anime viewers.

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You bet I separate them. It boils down, more or less, to three groups... A) those who aren't "otaku" or "anime fans" but saw the show (probably by word of mouth) and liked it, and then move on, B) those who saw the show, may or may not be fans of the medium in general, and will likely take a step beyond simply watching the show once (such as buying the show, etc.), and C) those hardcore fans who will enjoy spending a lot of time and money on the franchise. Now, it's anyone's guess as to what the ratios of A:B:C are in Madoka's fanbase, but that's not the point; the point is that groups B and C are who the marketing is targeting. From a marketing standpoint how can you not separate them?

Group B conflicts with the expectations of the show and the business model of anime in Japan. Groups A and B looks like groups that don't get planned for but are welcome bonuses if a franchise can out perform expectations.
Of course the ratio shouldn't or else your point would be ruined.

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The initial airing, maybe, sure, but what about all those people watching streams, downloading the episodes, borrowing the show from their friends, etc.?

Incidental fans that don't change the intended demographic.

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Yes, the analogy was intentionally exaggerated and it breaks down, but boil it down and the point is still made. You don't have to be a lore-steeped comic book fan who cosplays and collects superhero action figures to enjoy TDK. You don't have to be a magical girl anime scholar who cosplays and collects doujinshi to enjoy Madoka.

I didn't say it was exaggerated. I said the analogy doesn't fit well into this conversation. Correct you don't have to be an otaku to enjoy PMMM but just because a non-Otaku enjoys PMMM doesn't make it a non-otaku show. This feels like someone feels guilty by association but instead of proving their innocence(non-otakuness) they try prove a knife isn't a knife.

So is K-ON! no longer an otaku show since it's a hit with the mainstream? Because people still call K-ON an "otaku show", even though it's arguably more popular with the mainstream than Madoka.

I'll be honest: To me, all I've read so far is "Madoka is an amazing show and many people love it, therefore it is not otaku"...even though it's director and animation studio are known for primarily doing hugely popular otaku shows, is written by a guy known for his visual novel work, has character designs done by an artist known for her very moe manga, has dominating BD sales while the DVD sales were above average, has merchandising out the wazoo, and aired very early in the morning, all of which usually add up to an otaku show. But because this show has all of that and is amazing it's not an otaku show?

What if Madoka was an average show, but still had it's fame? Would it be like K-ON and still considered an otaku show? I'd rather it still be called what it is - an extremely popular otaku show - so that it can help get rid of the negative stereotype "otaku show" has.

The King of Harts wrote:

I'll be honest: To me, all I've read so far is "Madoka is an amazing show and many people love it, therefore it is not otaku"...even though it's director and animation studio are known for primarily doing hugely popular otaku shows, is written by a guy known for his visual novel work, has character designs done by an artist known for her very moe manga, has dominating BD sales while the DVD sales were above average, has merchandising out the wazoo, and aired very early in the morning, all of which usually add up to an otaku show. But because this show has all of that and is amazing it's not an otaku show?

Pretty much. It's like saying Sailor Moon isn't a shoujo/girls series because there's a lot of guys who like it.

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It is this fact that is tripping up people who don't want there fandom associated with otaku. [...] Which means they were only expecting to attract late night anime viewers.

Otaku is a loaded loanword. Insofar as it means "fan of anime in general" then I totally agree with you that Madoka is an "otaku show," yes, because it was made for anime fans. In fact I have never even disputed this, or at least not intentionally, and was just saying that non-otaku can and do enjoy the show.

My point is precisely what you're getting at, that the negative stigma that words like "otaku" and "moe" have among anime fans (especially English-speaking ones, but Japanese ones, too, I suppose) is what is bothering people. Insofar as the term otaku means "basement dwellers with no life who sit up all night watching anime and sleep with body pillows" or your "lolicon otaku" or "Type Bs" or any other spin on a more negative definition of the term, they're still part of the target audience, sure, but I doubt they were the only target audience. Madoka was a show made for people who watch anime, in particular for people with some familiarity with the magical girl genre, so if that makes it an otaku anime in your definition then I agree with you. I am, perhaps unnecessarily, just trying to make a distinction between definitions of the term otaku without drawing Venn diagrams.

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There are shows like PMMM that incite "protective feelings" in the viewers and that's more inline with the original intention of the term.

I'm well aware of the term's multiple uses and "original intention" of the term. I mean, it's not like it's a storytelling element unique to Japan or anything. Plenty of stories written with non-Japanese sensibilities have "moe" in them. I have nothing against that kind of moe. It's the "vapid cuteness for its own sake" definition that has been unfortunately (and inaccurately) attached to the word that has some people up in arms, I think.

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...but are welcome bonuses if a franchise can out perform expectations. [...] Incidental fans that don't change the intended demographic.

They don't change the intended demographic, but they do in a sense define the kind of show it really is and the other appeals it really has once it's out there in the open, wouldn't you agree?

Is it because Madoka has attracted much attention from people who don't usually watch these kinds of animes that Madoka can't be labeled as an otaku anime? I do think Madoka tends to be more of an otaku anime, I mean, erhm... Mami. Did everyone just forget about Mami? Besides, I remember there was a picture of main characters at the end of each episode and I thought they were just pure fan service.

Cam0, no we didn't forget about Mami. In fact, that was a big reason why it is a Type A.

In most Type B shows, you simply don't get the depressing elements, the deconstruction, the incident with Mami. That's why people were so happy with PMMM. We though this was going to be another sugar-and-spice Type B show for little girls and man-children and what we got was brutal violence, mature themes and philosophical reasoning.

In other words, this series pretended to be Type B insofar as it needed Type B elements in order to deconstruct them in a Type A way. Oh, and also to lure in the high-spending Otaku who usually go for Type B. So a Type B on the surface (for a little while anyway; see Mami), but it is undoubtedly a Type A show in tone and execution. If you go digging past the character designs and whatnot, you'll find that this was a Type A show from start to finish, episodes 1-12.

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