Forum - View topicANNCast - Bosch Spice
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The Count
 Posts: 303 Location: Milwaukee,WI |
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Am I alone in finding it funny that the site where your most likely to be bashed as an anime fan, is on a large site dedicated to anime. Zac can come across as rude, but I respect that he knows who he is and just rolls with it. And I guess if I had to read and listen to some of the things I've seen in thread as often as he does, I'd become a little jaded. I actually find him funny most of the time even though I disagree with some of the things he says.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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You know full well I know who you are. "Dude" and "Man" are equal opportunity, bro.
Sure. I'll agree that the EVA dub is a big piece of garbage and you'll disagree with that. |
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Cheesecracker
 Posts: 240 |
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I hope somewhere in this here rant, I wander somewhere near an on topic thought. Sorry, some fragmenting occurs.
(Note: If I sometimes am vague, it's because I am on purpose. I'll point fingers when I have a target. Translation: I'm not talking about the show's guest, I had never heard of him before and thought he was fine as Vash, even though I didn't always like Vash as a character) I prefer subs. I like the sound of the Japanese language as well has how it's delivered. On a deeper level, it becomes like a taste of another culture, even if my depth of understanding will always fall short. However, without the investment, I'm guaranteed to get nothing towards that end. I don't dislike dubs so much for the fact that it's not Japanese, I just won't get the experience that I mentioned above out of them. I appreciate that where a language/communication barrier exists the choices really only are spell it out or speak it out(unless they want to re-animate the art to look American...might as well re-write the story while we're at it  ). Some people don't care about the original format and others will just prefer to hear English. Whatever the case, everyone would agree that it should be done well.
Well, it *is* a business and sometimes the only choice is to go forward with what you got. As someone who's worked the creative fields, I respect the effort that goes into even the easiest to trash product you could name. You can say they phoned it in, creatively bankrupt...blahblahblah. It's still hard work. Let me know that last time you rocked the world(Twice?! Three times?!? You *are* good!) OK OK...it's only anime, but if you don't care why are you here? The thing that gets on my nerves is pointless commentary on the DVDs, often by the voice cast. I've got nothing against voice actors, they serve a useful purpose. The Actors are utilized to sand the corners off a square peg to make it fit whatever hole it has to. It's not their fault it's being done. It's not wrong that it's being done. Still, I have yet to hear a commentary of that sort that sounded relevant. That someone should give commentary on someone else's creation doesn't sit well with me(unless they truly are interested in providing insight beyond just their experience in the process). Otherwise, it's like a House Painter commenting on the Architecture(if at all). To some extent it's just the machine trying to parley what it can into 'added' value for that DVD and even to just further a 'Home Team' aspect to rally the local fans around. To put a 'face' on it. I am an Eva fan. Whatever shortcomings it has had for me in the long run, it at least generated a real sense that something big was going on. From the art/design/animation, to the music, to the choreography/ direction etc. It all fit for me as it did for so many people. I still view it as special beyond just nostalgia. Perhaps that is the biggest reason I hated the commentary that Wendee Lee gave on the End of Eva movies. Absolute crap IMO. I felt cheated. It was not 'better than nothing'. I was so glad that a version was issued without it. I WANTED TO KNOW SOMETHING. To feel kinda like how I felt after the commentaries of FLCL , Giant Robo or Project A-ko. Enough, Bleah 56077 Hopefully, someday I will construct a post that doesn't make me sound like a nut or a jerk. Until then I can only try to follow in the master's footsteps...and hope. Oh great Zac show me the way.
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Most businesses will use any loophole they can. It's one of the things that businesses have to do since they have responsibilities to their employees and investors. Employees in certain situations also take pay cuts to save their place of employment. Sh*t happens. |
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theloniustrebonius
 Posts: 48 Location: Pelagiad, Vvardenfell |
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I've got a few comments. The first few are related to this ANNcast; the last, only slightly.
Comment 1 Firstly, I want to thank Justin and Zac for putting on ANNcast. I'm only a casual anime viewer and don't follow the industry very closely, so for me, ANNcast is a nice, laid-back way to keep up to date with the latest happenings. When I watch anime, I usually do so alone or with a couple of friends (I'm not part of a club), so ANNcast helps me feel connected to the larger anime community. Being an anime fan can in the US can actually feel kind of lonely; anyone with me on that? Anyway, I'm not trying to brown-nose, just expressing my gratitude. It's a nice thing to listen to. Comment 2
No, you're not alone. It's funny and a bit sad. I find that when an otaku bashes another otaku, it's because, on some level, he's internalized the social stigma against otaku-dom and is trying to prove that someone else is "lamer" than him. After all, why do bullies bully? Because they were bullied! This happens not just with otakus, but with comic book fans, larpers, trekkies; really, anyone in specialized fandom. Fundamentally, it stems from insecurity: "maybe I really am lame for liking anime/comic books, etc." The way to get around it is to accept oneself. Of course, that's easier said than done, eh? 
Comment 3
Truth. For me (and I stress that this is personal), the greatest tragedy of the whole ADV debacle will be the loss of the ADV brand name. When I was a toddler, Toonami and ADV introduced me to anime. I would come home from school and giddily pop my newly-arrived VHS tape from ADV into the VCR, sit through the "do it now" mash-up trailers and get my anime on. As Justin said, "not to ascribe emotion to a faceless corporate entity," I have a certain nostalgic connection to ADV and I'm going to miss the brand, although I think that I'll survive, given that I haven't bought anything from them in a good long while and they are, after all, a business. Comment 4 As for the Eva dub, I haven't heard it since I was very young and don't remember it. If it really is that awful, it's a shame, because Eva is a fast-paced show (well, when things start happening, they happen fast) with significant amounts of background dialogue and for a viewer that doesn't know Japanese (me), it can be dizzying to try and keep up with the subtitles. As an example, there is this one scene late in the series where several scientists in Antarctica are talking prior to Second Impact. There are (I believe) two conversations being held while a narrator talks over it all. Had to watch that a few times. That was the scene that first mentioned the "Super Solenoid" theory. Comment 5 Now for the slightly (very) unrelated comment. I must complain about the "Super Solenoid" theory. As an actual scientist (in training), it can be very annoying to listen to sci-babble on sci-fi series. One great example is Star Trek: TNG. In almost every episode, the show introduces a new fictional subatomic particle and almost never mentions it again. Another example is Eva, which, even by the standards of sci-fi, is chalk full of bad science. Super Solenoid is a great example. Solenoids are electromagnets designed to produce near-uniform magnetic fields in small spaces. To make a solenoid, all you need to do is run electricity through a slinky. No joke. Hook a Slinky up to a battery and you have a solenoid. Old-style, closed MRIs are solenoids. They are not, and cannot possibly be, engines or power supplies, as they are in Eva. But hey, Eva is, after all, soft sci-fi and is really a character sutdy and watching it for the science is really missing the point. Eva does one other thing that bugs me. Eva is a vaguely mystical sci-fi series. Such series tend to ascribe mystical qualities to technology. Once again, the S2 is a good example. Not only a power supply, it is also the Angels' source of immortality. There are other examples: the Sea of Dirac and AT fields. I find the mystification of science troubling. Extremely troubling. After all, the great utility and value of science is that it is not mystical. Any person can understand it, not just diviners and priests. It's a result and driver of the democratization of knowledge. I can anticipate a counter-argument: "come on, man, it's just a show." Actually, it's an extremely popular show. And that means something. I'd argue that the average TV and anime viewer forms their view of what science is more from endless hours of sci-fi than from science classes and books. I can honestly say that I sometimes find myself having to correct false scientific assumptions/myths instilled in me by years of sci-fi viewership. I'll bet dollars to dimes there are people who think Tachyons, sub-space and anti-gravity drives exist, or at the very least are possible. That strikes me as troublesome, but maybe it's only me. I know all that wasn't too related to the topic, but I had a need to say it. Sorry if I wasted your time with a rant 
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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you know, all this bad EVA dubs and the whole "that's on par with how dubs were during that time" did remind me of a bad Dub which actually wasn't from that time; Godannar. And yes, I noticed the dubbing. I'm a bit desensitized to the boobies from art school all the life drawing courses I took. But not desensitized enough to lend it to my younger cousin out of fear of having to explain myself to my aunt and uncle. Although uncle would probably like it too...
ANYWAYS it alway irked me how the dubs confused "yelling" with "intensity". Yeah you can be intense when yelling and it makes it easier for some people. But they aren't the same thing. When your yelling the whole time it eventually just becomes noise and you lose the intensity and the audience. The japanese were able to keep that intensity even when they kept their voices to reasonable decibel levels. Take the FLCL dubs, there are plenty of "intense" scenes and dialogue, but it doesn't sound like they're trying to yell the mic's head off because it crashed the family porsche into the family pool which killed the family cat that the family grandmother loved so and decided to join by drowning herself in the family pond thus feeding the family goldfishes giving them the taste for human blood causing a miraclious rapid evolution that eventually lead the the death eating of the family dad and family mom and causing the family son to get the family shotgun to kill the family walking goldfish monster and the family daughter to save the family brother from the other family walking goldfish monster sneaking up behing him with the family pickaxe by killing it with the family sword. I mean seriously, stop yelling already. Last edited by TatsuGero23 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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In terms of the Eva dub, I find it good/great. It's certainly not the best, or even top 20 material, but hardly what I'd call awful. The sub actors are all superior though with the exception of Asuka and Rei. I think Tiffany Grant just did a better job with Asuka than the seiyu, and Rei is about the same because it's REI (hence why I wasn't worried when I heard a new dub VA would be doing her for the Rebuild movies, she doesn't require much acting). Some might disagree with me on that, but I really don't think much acting is required for that sort of character (and Rei is one of my favorite characters, so don't take that as bashing).
JesuOtaku, I would consider Eva a masterpiece, and it's in my "watch once per year" list, so I'd be an exception to your rule. Arguably a big exception, since aside from the live-action sequence in EoE, I never found Evangelion to be that confusing. The answers came eventually, the questions that were unanswered (like Gendo's whisper) weren't big enough to throw me off, and episodes 25-26 were IMHO even more straightforward than the episodes preceding it (they're in this "Instrumentality" thing and everyone is being psychologically analyzed. What was supposed to be confusing about this?). Yes, people give me odd looks when I say this, but I honestly don't find it that confusing. I didn't find FLCL or Paranoia Agent confusing either, so I guess I'm just an oddball (I've yet to see Serial Experiments Lain though, I hope that one will finally throw me off). In terms of worst English dub, I'd give it to Fantastic Children. Already tragic that it was so overlooked, but giving it such an awful dub was even worse. Hopefully dub fans allowed themselves to view the sub so they could at least properly enjoy this underrated gem. Now, if we're talking worse English version (that includes dub acting, edits, and any changes to music). either "Cardcaptors" or 4Kids' One Piece easily wins. The former basically re-wrote the shows' entire genre and removed tons of characterization and story, just so it would be "clean for kids" (which makes no sense, CLAMP is pretty much never "clean for kids" by the US's standards) and "more appropriate for boys"  . The latter was arguably even worse especially if FUNi hadn't rescued it. By removing entire arcs, they had unknowingly completely ruined the series in the stories to come (there wouldn't be much to a certain future Strawhat's character without the existence of a previous arc). Add in the all-around awful acting (save "Zolo"/Zoro), bad script, awful openings, and countless edits, and you can understand why people have to come to hate 4Kids as much as they do.
Anyway, like I said on the other thread, I enjoyed Sgt Frog's dub and will be picking up the DVDs (and Zac is right, comedy is highly a YMMV territory. I know someone who sees eye-to-eye with me in comedy always, EXCEPT I love Arrested Development and he finds it subpar. Fair enough, despite the fact I'd call AD the best TV comedy of the decade, it's not for everyone, simple as that). JYB sounds like a cool guy, and I never considered him overexposed. He's new talent that's very good, so I'm not going to cry foul for that. I find his voice to be enjoyable to listen to in all the series I've seen with him (Lelouch, Ichigo, Rossiu, Itsuki, and yes, even Renton), so I'm all for JYB to continue showing up in series. |
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ilurker
Posts: 3 |
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For what it's worth, I'm thoroughly enjoying what I've heard so far on two of the podcasts I've listened to. I love the special guests and the insights. Keep up the good work guys.
Oh, and I don't mind the fan bashing too much either. I guess some people just need to grow slightly thicker skins. 
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Gewürtztraminer
 Posts: 1028 Location: Texas - Its like whole other country. |
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The first podcast I am following (and enjoying, thanks).
Did we ever hear the best dub choice for Justin? Throwing Hentai out, I have to agree with the Fantastic Children dub mention above. I always watch dub first if given the choice, I have only switched two times. The first was Strawberry Marshmallow, where I wanted to hear how the English exchanges with Ana were handled on the Subtitle side, and found the original much better (the dub is not bad, just the original is so much better). The second was Fantastic Children, the dub was just too distracting. I think there was a weekend or two on Adult Swim where you had: Paranoia Agent, Bleach, Eureka 7, and Trigun running on the same night that all featured JYB. |
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gatotsu911
Posts: 457 Location: US of East Coast |
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Wow, I never fail to be amazed at how two (or more) people with different tastes can internalize the same thing so differently. I love the Eva dub with a passion. My first time watching, I switched over after watching several episodes subbed because I liked it so much, and it was the one show that got me watching dubs again and made me interested in the US voice acting scene. I would easily label it as my #1 dub of all time, not because it's completely without flaws, but because (to my ears, anyway) the character performances are peerless. I think (or at least, I'd like to think) that I have fairly good taste in acting - for what it's worth, I've predicted Oscar-winning performances on several occasions. And yet, I've continually discovered people's opinions to be drastically divided on the subject of the Eva dub. I can only remember people who've loved it as much as I have (which reminds me, I'd be very curious to see what Theron Martin might have to say on this thread), or those who have hated it as much as Zac and Justin do. Whether from Eva diehards or more casual fans, people who generally watch dubs and people who don't, I don't think I've ever heard/seen someone describe the Eva dub as merely "okay". It just seems to draw people to one extreme or another, and I openly admit I'm at the positive end of that. I can't even visualize how someone could hate it as much as many do. I wonder just what it is that makes some people fall head-over-heels in love with it, while others despise it with the fury of a thousand hells?
PS: By contrast, I abhor the FLCL dub, which many people seem to love. Definitely one of my least favorite. And also...
Wait... wait... wait... what??? |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Yeah, I know. A lot of people really love the dub to EVA. I love certain performances in it, (Tiffany Grant's Asuka is really great, Rei is silky smooth, and Misato's quite dynamic and fun,) but because I hate others, (WHO cast SEELE to sound so SILLY? Kaji's far too broad for such a down-to-earth guy...And Kaworu makes my brain explode with WTF as well...) I can't say I love the dub on the whole. It still does its job well, I'd say.
But I guess I can personally say it's just okay, because, like I said, I'm not all that passionate about Evangelion and don't have these fixed ideas in my head about EXACTLY how each character should sound because of this psychological facet of their makeup, blah dee blah. I just hear it and if it works, it works, I can see the character and believe the performance sounds natural (by cartoon standards.) If it doesn't, it's very obvious and it's pretty impossible to ignore no matter how hard you think about the psychological basis of the acting and whatnot. Maybe the love it/hate it lines are so fiery because they are fiery on every topic that EVA presents, even if it's just voice acting.
I don't abhor it, but I don't think it's very good either. I simply abhor a certain thing about it. It's one of the first (and sometimes the only!) dub that hardcore subbies will tout as wonderful. Why is this, do you think? Is it the acting? It's weird, spastic, unnatural and only barely works because the show is too. Is it the script? It's clever, but pretty much the same as the Japanese for pure weirdness level. NO. They like the FLCL dub because the actors sound EXACTLY like their Japanese counterparts. Voice, delivery, everything. Never mind that it doesn't sound like a normal voice for the english language, they're just happy that the VAs are imitating the speech patterns of the Japanese in the english language, no matter how screwy that ends up sounding. If it were any other show but FLCL it'd be a terrible idea. The acting styles and vocal associations with archetypes are just very very different. So I think the FLCL dub is fine, but it REALLY bugs me for that reason. Those particular purists will only like something if english people are copying the general sounds of japanese people rather than acting.
Yeah, I didn't think I did that either, but I'm not going to reverse blame and claim he called the EVA dub being crappy a fact. He may or may not have, that's not something I can know or really care to anyhoo...this is a message board and everything anyone says should really be taken with a grain of salt...the whole canister, really. |
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gatotsu911
Posts: 457 Location: US of East Coast |
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Frankly, I loved Aaron Krohn's take on Kaji. Kaworu (in the TV series/DC) and SEELE, not so much (although I did dig SEELE's collection of accents, which I found to be one of many nice Woolseyisms in the show).
Yeah, that pretty much sums up almost all of what I hate about the FLCL dub. I guess it just bothers me more than some, but frankly I think FLCL is a WORSE-than-normal series to take that kind of approach in, in no small part because the stilted dialogue and performances make the show even more awkward and confusing than it was intended to be, and make it harder to connect emotionally with the characters when they all sound so weird and unnatural in English. But add to that the fact that they are completely inconsistent about their usage of Japanese naming conventions and honorifics. One minute it's "Haruhara Haruko", the next it's "Haruko Haruhara", one minute it's "Naota-kun", the next it's just Naota. Just pick one and GO with it; the resulting inconsistency is jarring and distracting. (And for the record, for the purposes of a dub, I think using English name conventions and no honorifics is a better choice.) And I know better to expect a civil and balanced discussion here on the ANN boards. I just like to get my feet wet, and see how far it goes before the level of immaturity and rudeness present far outweighs any potential for an intellectually engaging discussion. (It usually isn't long, especially with certain people present.) |
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The King of Harts
 Posts: 6712 Location: Mount Crawford, Virginia |
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I agree with Jesu in that if it sounds good, it works for me. I love EVA, but I'm not one of those diehards who go into an EVA discussion topic with Freudian theories bouncing around in my head. I used to take it serious and then I asked myself, "Why the hell am I thinking so hard over an anime?" It just doesn't make sense to me to care that much about it.
Worst Dub: The big three I have beef with are Ikkitousen, Strawberry Marshamallow, and Zero no Tsukaima. I just thought the Ikki dub was full of dull sounding actoring. I love Wendee Lee and I enjoy Carrie Savage, but I definitely wouldn't call those roles some of their better performances. I'm in the very small majority that's actually really happy Media Blasters is giving it a new dub. For SM, I switched to the subs because when Ana comes in there are too many English based jokes and it's not as funny dubbed. It also has dull acting, but they were just bearable. Oh ZnT dub, how I hate thee. I've never witnessed a single actor bring down the other actors around him like Johnathan Meza did as Saito. At first, it sounds like a typical Geneon dub (better than bad, but worse than good) and then Saito arrives on the scene and then he talks. Since he's a main character he talks a lot and that means he makes everyone else suck a lot. If anything, I have to give Meza credit for having the ability to make himself not stick out like suck-sounding sore thumb by making everyone around him seem just as bad. It's quite a skill. Although, Nicholas Manelick as Guiche was pretty horrible himself, but he didn't have enough lines to make everybody suck like Meza did. Best Dub: Desert Punk. I choose DP because it is absolutely amazing what Eric Vale did with that script and how he took advantage of the characters wearing masks. Not to mention his role as the Punk. Sure the acting is good, but the script is the absolute best part about that dub. "Why can't you ever recognize me by my face?" "Maybe because the ugly gets in the way" |
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gatotsu911
Posts: 457 Location: US of East Coast |
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Yes, Eric Vale is a fantastic screenwriter. Rumbling Hearts and Gunslinger Girl - two other gems of his - easily rank among my top candidates for Best Dub. (Along with the likes of Eva, the modern Ghost in the Shell, Streamline's Akira (which is how I am familiar with Johnny Yong Bosch to begin with), and Steamboy, among others.)
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I should imaging that those without any experience of anime wouldn't be in a position to criticise its fans, save perhaps for noticing their occasional 'divergence' from social norms. It takes one to know one, you might say, so it comes as no surprise that otaku are more likely to be criticised for their tastes on places like these as opposed to elsewhere. Though I'd assume some forumites, particularly those prone to criticising current trends in the industry and its fandom, would perhaps object to your thesis, you certainly make an interesting point. I myself am at a point where social stigma don't really concern me. I like what I like, and feel that there is a limit to keeping up appearances.
Admittedly, the fictionalisation of cosmological advances in the GunBuster omake did irk me somewhat, and I found Noein utterly unwatchable owing to its creative liberties, but the tendency of people taking to heart the 'fiction' element of science fiction isn't something I'd be swift to blame on directorial staff. A lot of people simply don't react well to mathematically rigorous activity: Its justificatory merits don't lend themselves to the uninitiated with quite the simplicity of popular fiction. Planetes could be seen as an antidote to this however. Alas, I was deterred by the premise and characters in such a case. |
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