Forum - View topicANNCast - The Thing About My Dokes
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Zeino
Posts: 1098 |
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I'll just make 3 points as going into a full debate with you would be futile itself, we might as well be talking two different languages about this. Point 1. There are such a thing as "bittersweet endings " where many things do get better but not all the tragedies are undone and the struggle goes on. Madoka's ending is just that. The last line in series by Homura sums such endings up nicely:
Point 2: You are cherry-picking a quote from Urobuchi from the Fate/Zero light novels that he wrote back in 2007. His views has changed a lot since then. Otherwise he wouldn't be writing things like Thunderbolt Fantasy, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet and Expelled from Paradise. Point 3. No, Rebellion is most definitely not masterpiece material from where I am sitting. End of discussion. |
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Shiflan
 Posts: 418 |
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I agree completely. Notice that my only claim was that the ending was not happy. I don't object to calling it bittersweet at all.
If you have a source for that I'd love to read it. All the interviews I have read with him from the various magazines suggest that his views haven't changed much at all.
You're welcome to your opinion, and I have no desire to change it. The only point I made was that anyone surprised by the ending of Rebellion must not have been paying very close attention to what came before, or the earlier parts of Rebellion itself. Whether or not you *like* it is a different question altogether. |
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Scalfin
Posts: 249 |
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I think the consensus on Rebellion would be unequivocally positive had there been an additional sequel, as it ends on what's stated to be an unstable equilibrium non-ending. It's an obvious middle story that is acting as a final story/arc for no good reason.
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Agreed. As much as I like Rebellion it is certainly open-ended. I'm surprised there hasn't been talk of a follow-up. You'd think the franchise makes more than enough money to pay for more. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5852 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I am not going to do the quote thing, as I believe all our positions are etched in stone by now.
Homura in the PMMM TV series. I never saw Homura as unstable in the TV series. You want unstable, you got Mami there on that one. Just because Homura suffers and plods along the path that many of you think she should have quit on, doesn't mean she is fated to go psychotic on her friends, which is what she did in the third arc of Rebellion. I liked the first part of Rebellion, and I loved the second part of Rebellion. Personally, I thought the second arc of Rebellion cemented a positive image of Homura. The third arc of Rebellion, ran Homura through a blender, and ended on a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger, because Homura's universe is falling apart, as she is too. The fantastical is melded to reality. More importantly though, what Homura has done, has to be answered for. Time has passed since the end of the PMMM TV series, how much is a matter of debate. Regardless, the main cast has lived their lives since the end of the series, whether in our world, or Madoka's heaven. They have had experiences, memories, and other friends. Homura has taken all that away and forcible regressed them back to their Middle School lives. That would be like one of us getting taken away, and being tortured and brainwashed into forgetting our past life. Remembering nothing after our Middle School years. While they are still alive, Homura basically killed her friends, at least who they were as people. While it was shown that, what she did to their minds is not permanent, who knows how much damage will remain after all is said and done. As to the matter of evil. If you were made to forget your spouse, your loved ones, your children, your friends, and all your experiences and memories that happened after you graduated from Middle School; would you consider that evil. I sure would. For me, the second arc of Rebellion was the high point for Homura, and then they dashed it all away and threw Homura away in the final arc. Now she is an insane pod person. I think that since we haven't had a conclusion sequel to Rebellion in these five years and nothing new about it in the wind, says all you need to know about Rebellion. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Homura became fated to do those things spoiler[when Madoka became god]. PMMM is not subtle when it comes to issues of fate and karmic balance. It's clearly an external force, not something that Homura did herself. Note her dialogue in Rebellion. For example, at one point near the end she remarks spoiler["hmmm....so this is what being a witch is like"]. Her tone of voice (In Japanese at least, I don't know if the dub got that right or not) is one of curiosity. She takes the role of an observer describing what is happening to her, rather than someone who is in control and actively in charge of her actions. It's not spoiler["muhahahah I'm the devil now and I'm going to destroy the world!!!]; rather this is something that is being done to her, not something that Homura is in control of doing herself. She's along for the ride just as the audience is. And we also know that the ending of Rebellion seems to work out in a positive way. We haven't seen the events onscreen, but the monologue Homura gives at the beginning of Rebellion is spoken past-tense. Therefore we know that at some point in the future, when Homura spoke those words looking back at the events of Rebellion, she was back to a sane state of mind. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5852 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Sorry, I saw nothing of that in Rebellion.
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Did you watch the dub or sub? I'm not trying to get into an argument here, I respect your opinion, I'm just wondering if this was something that got confused because of translation issues. |
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AsuraTheDestructor
Posts: 466 |
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As someone who likes both Kingdom Hearts and Madoka, this ideas popped into my head.
Homura: I may have become the devil, but at least Madoka and I have a happy ending now. (Vanitas pops up) Vanitas: “Madoka will make a good back up body for me.” Me: “NOMURA! UROBUTCHER!!!!” |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2249 |
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I saw both, and I agree with TarsTarkas. Homura physically grabs Madoka and refuses to let her go, knowing that this will do something (probably something bad) to the universal balance, and she does not give a damn. That's not Homura being an objective spectator, she's an active participant in the harm she caused, and she explicitly goes out of her way (as indicated when Sayaka tries to confront her in the "new" world as well as when she distracts Madoka when Madoka starts to remember her role as god) to maintain her fragile paradise. Also, chalk me up with the folks who view the TV show as a happy ending. In the grand scheme of things, the fact that the girls do still have to fight remains, but they're no longer caught in a cycle of "kill or be killed" that Kyubey's original setup perpetuated; the girls may still die in the end, but they're no longer "cursed" to become the monsters they fought so hard to protect others from. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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Yes, I agree. But note that the scene you are describing occurs after the one I was talking about above where she describes what being a witch is like. Maybe I did a poor job explaining myself, and I will try again. I'm not sure if this is what TarsTarkas meant by the three "parts" or "arcs" of Rebellion, but there are basically 3 stages to Homura's behavior. At first she, like the audience, doesn't know what's going on. Then she figures out that spoiler[she's the witch] (2nd stage). And we all know what happens afterward (3rd stage). During that 2nd stage she clearly speaks like an objective observer, talking about what is happening to her rather than what she is doing. Of course in the 3rd stage, spoiler[after the transformation has occurred,] she is back to being active again. To me, that suggests that even at the end, when she "did not give a damn" as you put it, she is not acting on her own personal volition, and rather is acting as the new being she has become. spoiler[ Even then she doesn't talk like a stereotypical megalomaniac villain like one might expect, she even says "I suppose you might call me the devil now". That's an objective statement of self-reflection, not "hahaha maggots, I'm the devil and I'm going to kill you all".] I think all of that shows that the events of Rebellion happened to her as opposed to by her. And that is consistent with the general idea of fate and balance we see in PMMM in general. spoiler[Madoka became Madokami so Homura becomes Homucifer. ] Balance is maintained. Sure, Homura does do things willingly at the end of Rebellion, but that's post-transformation and she is no longer in her normal frame of mind, spoiler[she is the devil at that point. Those aren't her actions, they are the devil's actions. ] As an unrelated example: consider a person who just drank a lot of alcohol in a short time. At first they're completely sober. As the booze starts kicking in they become aware of their impending intoxication but it hasn't fully kicked in yet (that's when Homura says spoiler["hmmm....so this is what being a witch is like"]). And then the booze really does kick in, at which point the person is no longer in their normal frame of mind. Same idea. Except replace "drinking a lot of alcohol in a short time" with spoiler["became the devil because of karma"]. We excuse (to some degree) an intoxicated person's actions because we know they are not in full control of themselves. And this is no different. Homura's actions at the end of Rebellion are not entirely her own, they are the result of what fate has forced her to become.
How so? The only change is that the girls now fight wraiths instead of witches--a change that was kept as minor as possible, even in name. It's still kill or be killed. Perhaps the biggest problem of all--QB--is still there.
That is true, though how much of a benefit is that? I would argue it's a minor one, though the truth is that we don't really know. I can't remember the exact scenes or I'd look them up and quote verbatim, but the dialogue states at least twice that spoiler[once girls become witches they are essentially without any kind of consciousness anymore. Once was in reference to Sayaka after her transformation. The other is not present in the movies but is in the TV when Mami is teaching Madoka and Sayaka about witch hunting. Those two bits of dialogue would imply that from the girl's perspective becoming a witch is no different than being dead. The trouble is that those lines are not consistent with dialogue in Rebellion. Homura mentions the witch experience, and the other girls (I think it was Mami) mentioned that Homura was suffering when she transformed into Homulilly.] So in this regard the show contradicts itself. But it is entirely possible that Homura is a special case. That said, I think it's hard to call the ending happy based simply on directorial choice. The director chose what scenes to show us about the new world. And those scenes are: a) nearly identical to the way things were before b) filled with imagery of impermanence and sadness c) conspicuously lacking any sort of happy scene. Seriously, go watch episode 12 and try to find a happy scene afterspoiler[ the new world is shown. There are plenty of opportunities for that, yet as I mentioned above the silence is deafening. For example, we see a scene in the new world in which the girls have been fighting and then poof, Sayaka is gone. If the ending was meant to be happy the dialogue might have said something about her "being in a better place now" or something similar.] But instead the girls react just like they did in the early part of the series. They are sad that their friend is gone, and there is no change to the positive. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5852 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Dying or becoming an insane monster that destroys and kills everything you care about. That is more than a minor benefit. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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The insane monsters which destroy and kill still exist, and the girls still fight a futile never-ending battle against them--a detail which episode 12 makes extremely clear. They just changed their name ever so slightly. The only distinction beyond the name change of majou to majuu is thatspoiler[ in the wraith world the monsters simply exist, whereas in the witch world the girls become witches.] This detail, while extant, appears to be moot because we are told that witches lack consciousness and awareness, and we don't know much about wraiths as a basis of comparison. does it matter which name the characters give to the insane monster? does the origin of the monster matter if they are unaware, unconscious beings as we are told they are? |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5852 Location: Virginia, United States |
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You misunderstand. I am referring to the Magical Girls who turn into witches.
Before Madoka: Magical Girls turn into witches. They kill and destroy everything they care about. After Madoka: Magical Girls just disappear and go to Magical Girl Heaven or if found not worthy, they go to where the rest of us go. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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I understood what you meant. But isn't that relatively minor in the grand scheme of things? For the average person on earth (99.999% of the population) things are unchanged. Pre-madoka they suffered death and destruction at the hands of witches. Post-madoka they suffer death and destruction at the hands of equally sinister monsters with a slightly different name. For magical girls themselves: Pre-madoka they fought supernatural monsters, at the risk of death, until they themselves transformed into an unconscious, unaware, state; meanwhile QB harvests their emotional distress. Post-madoka they fight slightly-differently-named supernatural monsters, at the risk of death, until they are "taken into the void" by the law of cycles; meanwhile QB harvests their emotional distress. We are explicitly told that these fights are futile and eternal in both the pre- and post- Madoka worlds. The root cause of the problem, QB, is unaffected (well, at least until Homucifer gets her hands on him during the end of Rebellion). I think that is not only a minor improvement as a general observation, but I also think the director's choice of scenes in episode 12 make that improvement emphatically minor. It's not just that the improvements are minor at first glance, it's that the director is rubbing the audience's nose in it. Futility is the entire point, as we are shown by not only the events of the plot, but also literally told by asides, and if that wasn't enough we get the imagery of the tide coming in and washing away little Tatsuya's drawings in the sand. |
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