Forum - View topicOtakon 2008 Fansubs and Industry Panel
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I don't pay 2$ an episode to watch cable TV, so to me 2$ is unreasonable for "just a viewing" which is all a digital copy would ever be for me.
I like collecting dvds, but they really need reasonable rate subscription services if they want to attract most people on the digital download front. Most people just want to watch the show, not store the files or see the show 10 times (I like to do this, but I use the dvds for this purpose and like what else comes with them). I think if they were to have reasonable rate subscriptions, they could probably even increase dvd prices overall without feeling too much heat for it (they couldn't increase them much, since not everyone is going to go to any system involving a computer, but they probably could increase prices somewhat). |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I didn't realize til today that 78% of Japan's anime profits come from merchandise. Kinda puts this whole DVD/DTO/whatever debate into perspective, since the US can't use the same model currently to survive. BTW, the Keynote Address from Vu Nguyen, Crunchyroll, is excellent for real numbers vs. opinions, and overall a very smart session. One of their schemes is in fact to introduce merchandising sales since they have a fairly loyal and "sticky" customer base. I have to say I so much appreciate these complete videos of sessions. The summaries are nice, but nothing beats being there and getting the full content and live reactions. For anyone interested in this industry, those videos are gold. |
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houkoholic
Posts: 83 Location: Japan |
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In other words, the realistic price - where there are enough costumers paying the price such that the companies remain profitable enough to provide the service. This is real economics. The simplified two line supply/demand curve which Adam Smith came up which you stated is theoretical and idealistic, in real life, things are much more complicated than that. |
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I understand, but without going into an economics treatise, I was trying to communicate that the market doesn't necessarily care what we think. Arbitrarily saying that a certain price is "unreasonable" doesn't suddenly make people pay more than they are willing to pay for something, and conversely people being willing to pay $1.50 neither confirms or denies profitability at that point. If you are C-level at an anime production company, you are welcome to argue that. You can add all the complexity you want, but nothing short of enforced subsidy (taxes) or physical force will take people's money out of their pocket when they don't think the value they get is worth it, whether physically, emotionally or by whatever measure. Many an enterprise has failed on denial of that simple principle. |
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Ultenth
 Posts: 229 Location: Washington State |
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Several of my biggest issues were raised in this panel it seems, especially about the Americanization of anime when it's brought over by many companies, something I strongly dislike.
Another issue I haven't seen really mentioned in the panel or most anywhere else, but one I'm trying to bring more attention to, is one I have brought up previously in other threads, and that is the difference between collectors and non-collectors. And how 99% of the business model outside of Japan is directed at collectors only, with the only option usually high-priced niche DVD's. They seem to be completely ignoring the fact that there are people out there that watch a show only once, or simply don't care about collecting stuff, and so they don't want or need the physical DVD, and only want some service so that they can watch a single time. With streaming sites and other online stuff they are somewhat moving towards that. But until they get to the point where they really start to consider the needs of the non-collecting customer, and provide for them in a reasonable manner, fansubs is where the majority of those types of people will get their anime. Last edited by Ultenth on Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jih2
 Posts: 403 Location: East coast |
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Correct me if I'm wrong but if this quote is supposed to come from 40:06 the speaker says: "...has Dattebayo's fansubbing directly effected you making a purchase related to the series..." As opposed to "you purchasing a DVD." |
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omoikane
Posts: 494 |
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? They obviously do not.
I think that's the most important thing people should walk away with from this panel. The problem American publishers struggle with is that they have a hard time capitalizing on the large, non-collecting market. How high-profile publishers like Funi and Bandai make the transition from relying on just a few known best-sellers to the rest is key to the proliferation of anime in the US. |
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houkoholic
Posts: 83 Location: Japan |
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No the market doesn't care, but that also doesn't mean the companies will have to go so low such that the market starts to care and operate at loss - economics DOES dictate that it goes both ways, too. Of course the price point does not absolutely confirm nor deny profitbiliy, however it does somewhat reflect on whether it is profitable or not if you start putting the pieces together. For example, assuming the roughly $25 dollar of your regular R1 DVD mark and give a profit margin of about 10%, you get $2.5. Now say for downloads priced at $2, assuming a more generous profit margin of 30% (although DD has less physical production cost, there still involves infrastructure costs, royalties too etc), that's 60 cents. So you need about 4 downloads to 1 DVD for the same profit. Now the R1 companies had stated that a DVD needs to sell somewhere in the high thousands to break even in most cases. Multiply that by 4-5 times and you've ran into about the average number of downloads for a given episode of a series for free fansubs on torrent sites (free streaming sites doesn't even factor in, because people go to streaming sites obviously because they are free). Do you seriously think that *every single downloader* will pay? Of course not, you've just said so yourself. Even when you adjust the price such that you reach the maximum customer/profit equilibrium - which will *never* equal to the number of fansub downloads, it is still not going to be profitable no matter how you cut it, unless the market size itself grows larger. So I'd say the likelyhood that it is profitable at any price point below 2 dollars is going to be pretty damn slim. Also, the price point at which Hollywood sets their price is another pretty good indicater of how low it can get. But again, that's Hollywood, which is multiple times larger than anime and their volume dwarfs that of anime, thus justifying a lower profit margin per unit of sales. When a price is realistic for Hollywood, it certainly won't be for anime, and Hollywood hasn't settled for anything less than $2 currently. So again, I don't see how it would be profitable for the anime guys to do so. |
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mirax
Posts: 24 |
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I went to the panel, and I was really surprised by the level of civility between the two groups of people, although maybe a part of me was wondering if the fansubbers were so willing to agree with the industry reps because they were intimidated being on the same stage with them and in a panel of a few hundred attendees? I'm not so sure, but all the alternatives brought up, especially by Funi, and the seeming honest opinions of both groups made me really hopeful for the future of the industry.
I can't say I have my own two cents to add, as I don't think any answer will appease everyone, or even the majority, but I think it's a really great start to have such a debate to begin with. It was a much better panel than the "State of the Industry" one anyways, where no one but the Funi reps managed to show up and of course, Funi is doing great, so their opinion on the subject was a little biased. |
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GunslingerV
Posts: 2 |
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Is there a way to save this stream video onto my harddrive?
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luisedgarf
Posts: 660 Location: Guadalajara, Mexico |
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I don't get it. Do you mean about those old edited anime versions (like Robotech) and all the 4kids series or you're talking about non-edited versions like those from ADV Films, Bandai, etc, that could include some American joke on an anime series just to making more understandable that joke? |
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Ashen Phoenix
 Posts: 2917 |
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Couldn't have said it any better myself. I was tremendously enthralled upon starting the video and I sincerely hope they continue this panel again next Otakon, for it was a joy and an intellectual treat to listen to. Plus, I personally learned a number of invaluable things from both the industry members and fansub veterans. 
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Shadowrun20XX
 Posts: 1935 Location: Vegas |
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I'm glad that the fansubbers came out into the open to talk about such things.And that Funi and MB didn't get super hostile.There were a few petty insults here and there but overall it was a good vid.Isn't it weird to see the people behind the computer.They look nothing like you would imagine.Especially the guys from Dattebayo.I have a hard time taking anyone serious that would use "moot" in real sentence.It's obvious what generation he's speaking to. I would like to see more fansub groups up there next year. |
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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Personally I have allways thought of fansubbers as scumbags......But after watching the vid and reading as to why they do it and the fact they have come out in the open to talk ill go easy on these 4. And I appreciate them doing this.
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crilix
Posts: 208 |
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There's a transcript of the panel if you want to dig more into it. Rest assured, I agree that the bulk of total profits is made on merchandise licensing. After all, they have to pay ridiculous amounts of money just to get it on TV. Interesting read though. |
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