Forum - View topicGundam: UC, CE, AC, AD or Other?
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Well, I'm sure you'd enjoy your menial labor job working as a practical slave to Coordinators. Especially under Durandal's plan in Destiny, which gives Coordinators a distinct advantage, since they're already predisposed to be better at everything than you are. This is, of course, assuming they don't just decide to kill you because you're inferior, which many of them already avocate, reasonably so, since if you were a Coordinator, you wouldn't want to have to deal with inferior Naturals, either. It's nothing personal against Coordinators, but they're an obvious threat to the continuing existence of a natural mankind. Once you start cooking up people in a lab, humankind stops being human. If you ask me, that's what really goes against human rights. This, to me, is the biggest problem with CE era Gundam. Coordinators are supposed to be the equivalent of Newtypes, but they aren't like Newtypes- Newtypes are the natural progression of man's genes. Coordinators are custom made supermen. I'm not saying I'd be happily mowing them down, enjoying it, but Coordinators would have to be eliminated if the human race is to continue to live as a natural species. I mean, a little genetic manipulation to combat diseases is one thing, as long as the technology is available to everyone, but Coordinators go too far. |
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IchigoK90
 Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Okay before anything gets heated further lets just all agree that both the Newtype and Coordinator concepts are heavily flawed concepts since they were never really delved into (I still like to stick by the Gundam X explanation since it does make sense when you think about the total number of Newtypes you do see)? 
No Gundam is perfect and they all have their flaws though admittedly I would say that Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is the closest. It is my favourite Gundam story as of now and its simply because it is just a side story and doesn't try to be more than anything else than that. Also because of its placement near the end of the One Year War it helps deliver across the tragedy shown in the series while delivering the message that war is horrible in a subtle form. Plus it was about ordinary people on both sides with no real depiction of good vs. evil. That is why I think it comes to closest to being called perfect. However its not like it doesn't have its own faults... I found that its background music though fun to listen to does ruin the mood of the series, particularly during spoiler[the end of the series when Al's principle is giving his speech about the war and then as it ends you hear a tune that is a bit too uplifting considering all that Al just went through]. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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See though, this is exactly what I was saying about words like "freak" or "unnatural". They are arbitrarily assigned based solely on what people morally dislike. You can essentially apply the same scenario to any technology though. Also, in real life in most of the world, more advanced medical procedures are only available to those who are well off. Technology has always been, especially when it is new, only available to the select few who can afford it. That's just the reality of technology in capitalist society. Anyway, you are just repeating the same potential problems without addressing the key issue: Yeah it is possible that coordinators will attempt to eliminate naturals. However, how does that possibly give you the right to preemptively kill them? If I am afraid that a person will attempt to kill me should I just go out and kill them first even though they have not actually done anything wrong yet? Discussing complex technological issues as they relate to Gundam: I do believe I'm immensely smart as well as immensely nerdy. Er...probably just that second one. 
Why? Why is it that whenever anything vaguely resembling an actual discussion occurs somebody must throw themselves on top of it saying: Ohmigod you guys!!!! Please stop fighting!!!! |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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It's sort of like the problem of Prisoner's Dilemma; if one person "fights" and the others do not, then the person who fights "wins". But if everyone fights, then both lose out, as the thread will descend into anarchy and therefore gleefully (or condescendingly) locked by a moderator. Not a good outcome. The best outcome is for everyone involved to remain civil, and argue with respect to the actual merits of the various arguments. The thread stays open, everyone can get a post in without having to practically "shout", and no-one's feelings get hurt. I of course cannot say for certain, but I think that IchigoK90 just wants a good debate on the various merits of the entire franchise, not just on Co-ordinators and Newtypes. Is that about right? |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Look, this argument is going in circles. Clearly Coordinators aren't natural, that isn't an euphamism, they're artificially enchanced humans. That. Is. Not. Natural. Yes, a lot of technology and medicine isn't natural, either. However, at some point, a line has to be drawn. I'm glad Coordinators don't really exist, because with attitudes like yours, mankind would be slaves to artificial supermen. If killing them is what's necessary, than so be it. Preservation of man takes precedence over morality. We can regret our actions later. If it isn't done, there won't be a later. This is why I didn't like the Coordinator concept, because it didn't make sense for us to sympathize with the plight of people whose very existence was wrong. |
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IchigoK90
Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Exactly, which is pointed out in the fact that I diverted the second portion of my previous post to discussing another Gundam series. I mean as much as it is an interesting discussion it moves away from the actual topic of Gundam and moves on to a hypothetical situation in real life which leads to the discussion going off topic. I've been around a while to see interesting topics like this go down the toilet because it simply just goes back and forth with the eventuality of a moderator locking the thread. Plus the more you two argue the more personal this thread becomes and fewer users will actually contribute to the actual thread as they'd feel intimidated to post something in between an argument. I would know since I've found myself in similar situations. |
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Labbes
 Posts: 890 |
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While I can see your point (At least I think so), and I think the concept of Coordinators is really disturbing, I have to disagree with the sentence "Preservation of man takes precedence over morality." - because, biologically speaking, Coordinators are human. They might not be our race, but they are still of the same species as we are. Killing them because they are, objectively speaking, "better", would mean killing your own kind. And I strongly believe that, if the Coordinators enslaved Naturals, that sooner or later, they would give that up, just like how black people aren't (officially, at last) suffering of slavery anymore. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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I think you should probably rethink that correlation, because it has some pretty unfortunate implications. |
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Labbes
Posts: 890 |
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Ok, so I will have to explain it a little bit more. In the 17th century (approximately), the Europeans as well as the Americans had technological advantages which gave them enough power to enslave African people. The Europeans thought they were a better race than the Africans and they had the right to subdue them. 300 years later, people finally (more or less) got what "All men are created equal" means, and slavery as well as other displays of superiority were abolished. With the Coordinators, the only difference is that they don't (only) have technological, but genetical advantages which make them "superior". However, I believe that sooner or later if the Natuals become slaves, the Coordinators would see their mistake, and that humans are humans - regardless of genes. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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This is a flawed analogy. Coordinators don't just "think" they're genetically superior, like European whites of old (and of some new, where there is racism). They actually are. That's the entire point of them. Therefore, they pose a threat to man. I wouldn't want the Coordinators (eventual) pity. If you were genetically altered to be superior to everyone naturally born, you wouldn't want to have to coexist with them. That's insanity. That's like saying that maybe we should allow dogs to have citizenship or lemurs should be just as qualified as jobs as we are. We are as to Coordinators as house pets and insects are to us. The Naturals' only saving grace is that the lot of them seem to be too busy listening to pop music to realize it. Patrick Zala's position makes sense for them. Why would they bother coexisting with folks who only hamper the progression of their unique sub-race? The only reasonable thing to do is to get rid of Naturals. Likewise, if we're to continue to exist as Naturals, it's only reasonable for us to eliminate Coordinators. There's no co-existing. There's no rational in between point. There's no reconciling the two forces, because they directly contradict each other. I'm only taking the side of the Naturals, because, as a real life human, not born from a lab experiment, it's in my best interest for the continuing existence of Naturals. The very existence of Coordinators goes against that. That's one of the problems with the CE era Gundam programs. They paint the leaders of both opposing forces as just plain insane and evil. But it's not evil to desire existence. What sort of existence can Naturals possibly hope to achieve with Coordinators in the world? An existence of marginalization, at best. For the writers to make some lame "we should all live together in harmony" message is flawed when you have such contradictions. Especially when Cooridnators have no intention at all to stop making more Coordinators. With Newtypes, you can't really be against them. You can argue about Earthnoids and Spacenoids to some extent, but it's pretty well accepted in the UC that Newtypes are the next natural step of human genes. The artificial Newtypes are accurately portrayed as pathetic, tragic figures, the result of trying to hurry it along unnaturally. Look, I'm not saying the deaths of thousands of people are something to take lightly. Like I said before, though, preservation takes precedence to morality. Everyone likes to pretend they can take the high road, even if it risks their very existence, but that's a fantasy for people who've never been put in those sorts of positions. Existence comes first. We can always regret later. I won't argue the point any longer. Somebody else can have the final word on it if they wish. I didn't even mean to take it this far. It was just an element of SEED I found a tad absurd. I'd much rather get into some of the other problems I had with the show, but this didn't even start off a thread about that. It certainly has taken a turn for the... different. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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But where do you draw that line? Unless you can reach some logic-based conclusion that something is different from the rest in a way that sets it apart from the others, what basis is there to say you should draw the line there? You cannot simply assume that because of your own personal feelings or worse your fears that something is "wrong". That is precisely the kind of underlying thinking that has led to so many instances of prejudice, oppression, and war throughout human history. And if I may bring this back to Gundam, that's precisely why I feel SEED's portrayal is quite accurate. Both sides make the same mistake you are. They let their fears get the better of them and convince themselves that the only way to protect themselves is to eliminate the other side and as a result, nearly do end up destroying each other. In reality though, the perceived danger from either side only becomes real as a result of escalation from hostilities on both sides. @dtm42: That's sort of my point though. If it reaches the point where people are not even discussing the issue then sure. However, people seem too jump immediately to that as an inevitable conclusion even though it is not the case. I can see however, that as IchigoK90 has now said, this is getting off topic. I feel I have now addressed my point as best I can so I will move on after this. In fact, let me state my opinion on the original topic: I can't really say I have a preferred continuity. SEED is my favorite full length series by far but CE as a whole is marred by the dismal SEED Destiny which utterly destroyed most of the characters of SEED and stretched out and rehashed it's already complete plot. My opinion of UC is also rather mixed, although less bipolar than CE. I never saw the original. I tried but couldn't get through more than a few episodes. It just seemed far too outdated to be taken at anything close to face value. I've seen about half of Zeta. It's not terrible by any means, just mediocre. Where I do enjoy UC is the two OVAs, 0083 and 08th MS team. I have no use for Wing. I liked it way back when i was like 12 but after watching it again I realize what an utterly silly, dull, directionless mess it is. I hesitate to say G Gundam is bad (crash course in racial stereotypes aside) because it's perhaps more just different. It's really very different from the rest and probably has more in common with fighting/tournament anime. I've meant to see Turn A and X for a while but never quite got around to it. See MY ANIME list for more detailed explanations. |
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IchigoK90
Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Just throwing this out there but where do you all guys stand in preference for music in Gundam?
Despite the different era's each Gundam took place in I've enjoyed all the music in Gundam aside from one song (mostly because of what it was used for, I like the song itself I just didn't like it used as an opening theme). I can name a bunch of opening themes that I've enjoyed from every Gundam and every opening theme in Gundam (aside from the one) has been memorable for me. From the first opening theme "Fly! Gundam" to the latest opening theme "Hakanaku Mo Towa No Kanashi" each has been a treat to the ears. Some of my personal favourites include: Toki Wo Koete - by Maya Ayukawa (Zeta Gundam) Anime Ja Nai - By Arai Masato (ZZ Gundam) Silent Voice - By Jun Hiroe (ZZ Gundam) Men Of Destiny - By Mio (0083: Stardust Memory) Shine In The Storm - By Yonekura Chihiro (08th MS Team) Just Communication - By Two-Mix (Gundam Wing) Dreams - By ROmantic Mode (Gundam X) Turn-A-Turn - By Hideki Saijou (Turn A Gundam) Century Colour - By Ray Guns (Turn A Gundam) Ash Like Snow - The Brilliant Green (Gundam 00) I personally prefer a lot of the older songs compared to the newer ones but its not like I don't enjoy them. However if I were to pick my preference in music as a whole I'd say I enjoyed Wing's music above all others. If Wing does have any highs its the music and although the background themes aren't anything special they are fun to listen to and do help drown out the tedious philosophical talk. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Onto music (and trying to ignore ikillchicken's preference for the soulless CE over masterpieces like the original Gundam and Zeta), I would say that Turn A certainly has the advantage of having Yoko Kanno compose for it.
As far as my favorite vocal pieces/OPs/EDs (in more of a chronological order than order of preference): - "Beginning" - Inoue Daisuke (Mobile Suit Gundam III: Encounters in Space) - A perfect insert towards the end of the final of the trilogy movies, in the scene with spoiler[Lalah's death]. - "Megurai"("Encounters") - Inou Daisuke (Mobile Suit Gundam III: Encounters in Space) - A great ending piece for the final of the trilogy movies. - "Zeta - Toki wo Koete" ("Zeta - Transcending Times") - Mami Ayukawa (Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam) - the first OP for Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam really gets the blood pumping - "Silent Voice" - Jun Hiroe (Mobile Suit Gundam Double Zeta) - the transition from the weird hijinks period of Gundam ZZ to a more serious portion is partially marked by this more serious OP than the first one. It's a great-sounding song, too. - "Beyond the Time" - TM Network (Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack) - despite the gratiutous use of Engrish, an awesome ending theme from CCA. - "White Reflection" - Two-Mix (New Mobile Report Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz) - in my opinion, Two-Mix's best song for Gundam Wing, really setting the mood in its first play and a good song to go out on at the end of the OVA. - "Moon" - Aki Okui (Turn A Gundam) - a beautiful piece that resonates throughout the show in which it is featured. - "Tsuk No Mayu" ("The Moon's Cacoon") - Aki Okui (Turn A Gundam) - another version of "moon", and probably and even better version - "Kagiri Naki Tabiji" ("The Endless Journey") - Aki Okui (Turn A Gundam) - for those who stayed past the epilogue in the final episode of Turn A Gundam, they were treated to this song. - "Ash Like Snow" - The Brilliant Green (Mobile Suit Gundam 00) - While the first OP for Gundam 00 took some getting used to, this one was great from first listen. It's not as good as, say, the OPs to Macross Frontier, but, coupled with the opening animation, is perfect for the show. There are some others I enjoyed, such as Gackt's "Metamorphoze" and "Mind Forest" from the Zeta trilogy movies, "The Winners" from Gundam 0083, "Friends" by Stephanie (the second ED of Gundam 00), but the above are cream of the crop. Hell, sometimes I enjoy even listening to the OPs from G Gundam or the campy disco theme from the original series ("Tobe! Gundamu"). Moeagae, moeagare, moeagare, Gundamu! Last edited by penguintruth on Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IchigoK90
Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Those are all great songs, I only ended up mentioning opening songs and neglected to pick out some of the better ending songs like Moon and Tsuki No Mayu. During the final moments of Turn A in the last episode when Moon was being played (I think, I get mixed up with them both) I couldn't help but feel twice as sad when showing Sochie's ending. She is the only one who didn't quite get the happy ending everyone else had and so the song really added to the effect. As for Ash Like Snow it really isn't as good as other opening songs alone but because it was coupled with its opening animation so well I instantly loved the song. I think what helped it mesh so well with the animation was that the animators were able to time the explosions and etc with the crashing symbols. It really doesn't pick up until the pre-chorus though. Friends by Stephanie is a good song on its own but I just didn't think it worked well as the ending song. It is a good song mind you but I somewhat expected a softer sounding song. However even though Wing's music as a whole I found enjoyable to listen to whenever I still find that my two favourite openings are the openings for Turn A because they're just so different from all the other openings. I love singing along to them. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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And yet you didn't mention SEED and SEED Destiny's music. What's with that? If there is one thing, just one thing those two series did right, and that is the music. The OPs and EDs in those two series were the best I've heard in a Gundam work, followed by the surprisingly catchy OPs from Wing. The first ED in SEED was very good, while the third was sweet and soft and tender. Even SEED Destiny did well, and not just in the battle music. The first OP got the blood pumping, the third is incredible considering just who is singing it, and the fourth ED was very, very good. As for the insert songs, SEED had two of the best I've ever heard in any Anime series, and those are METEOR, and the one that was played in episode forty (no idea as to the name). Now, I'm not saying this as fact, just as a question; do you, penguintruth, hate the C.E. shows so much that you refuse to enjoy the very good songs and musical pieces they provide? You see, I thought that enjoyment of music would be more objective than the enjoyment of a show. By the way, I listened to Tsuk No Mayu on YouTube right now, and I'll readily admit it was a good song. But, I did not feel that it was any better than the C.E. EDs that you so curiously overlooked. Just wondering. |
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