Forum - View topicNEWS: Sentai Adds 3rd You're Under Arrest TV, Yozakura, Tayutama
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Zippydsm
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In japan the are plenty of 40+ year old fan, the states are far to ridged when it comes to animation and even comics I mean look at the US comic industry still mindless catering to a single mainstream demographic when manga manages to hit them all and do 1000 better.... ======================================= Rant mode engaged, I been looking at the argument for copy right to prevent non profit based distribution and can not find a reason to side with draconian copy right that's only getting worse. I will admit that any operation that's taking or getting money from shearing copy righted stuff SHOULD be controlled by the copy right owners(who are rarely copy right creators these days). But anything not making money should be left alone this may mean fansub/fan groups will have to pay for their own operation but its a good trade off. IMO copy right prevents modern people from doing things they have a right to in the modern world sure distributing whole things might not be a right but when its so very very hard to differentiate any aspect of distribution when one side has so many lawyers foaming at the mouth ready to attack mothers who post on youtube with music in their kids dance video and other crap its obvious that the vast majority of people do not infringe on copy right in a harmful way and if you are very stern and precise to limit profit to only licensee venues then you pretty much keep 60-90% of whats going on right now in file shearing illicit. Copy right is a means to give exclusive profit rights to the owners anything more helps create stagnate monopolies only interested in keep their monopoly together since the monopoly tends to make more money than any single CP, and frankly if a CP can not drive interest in society there is little reason for society to nitpick its distribution since it can't even make enough money to stay in business and the 30% of profit(unless of course you believe each download is a lost sale...... ) it might gotten from having an absolute lock on everything surrounding it never will be enough to sustain its business model. In the end focus on profit its its not making money in anyway its just fans trying to get the world out using all the tools and abilities of modern man. |
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PlatinumHawke
Posts: 204 |
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I think you're getting your causes and effects mixed up. This wasn't a "sudden" shift, more like an eventuality. Dubs don't move discs like they used to, and the people that are are shelling out probably don't care if it's sub only or hybrid. Sure, some fans get alienated, but it keeps the company going and not just treading water. Outside of Dragonball, Bleach and Naruto, what exactly moves anymore these days? Certainly not the stuff that you or I are interested in. Pretty sure Haruhi -- one of the biggest series of the decade in Japan -- fell well below expectations. If that didn't top the charts with a dub, then why bother doing it on other shows with even less curb-appeal to the average person? Businesses don't usually put people before dollars, unless you're contributing said dollars. If you say "Oh, I'm not buying these releases. Period." then you're just perpetuating the idea that anime doesn't sell and that dubs are risks that don't warrant the (almost non-existant) reward. Plus, if "mass-licensing" is the only way to counter piracy, then dubbing represents a time and cost barrier that companies would rather, or simply have to, skip -- see Bandai's brilliant move with the constantly delayed Gurren-Lagann. At least they've learned from the licencing fail-bonanza that made up the early 2000s that left about three or four major players bleeding money. Or I hope they did. spoiler[Why do I feel like I've just repeated a tired old argument in response to the same?] At this point, I'm wondering which market is going to implode first; The Japanese or the English. |
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Colonel Wolfe
 Posts: 370 |
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Ah, I see where you're going with this. While studios like Sentai Filmworks may be going the way of subtitled only anime, alll they are doing is treading water. While they may be going this way as an effort not to lose money, they're not exactly growing as a company either.
It's just not very good business sense to limit your company's growth. Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, there are more anime fans who prefer English dubs (or hybrid/bi-lingual DVD's). There's just going to be a very large drop in consumers buying anime DVD's, especially since Bandai Entertainment has also switched over to subtitled anime releases. I'm also suspecting that Funimation will eventually switch to subtitled anime as well because the market is backing away from hybrid/bi-lingual DVD releases. When this happens, I don't expect that anime licenses/releases will halt but I do suspect that there is going to be a very noticeable drop in anime sales among fans and it will go back to being a niche market for hardcore anime fans. |
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Zippydsm
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Posts: 134 |
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I can say the same for video games, when price(to make something) exceeds cost(the cost of selling it) something has to give for gaming you get mass conglomeration to hedge profit loss but no real drive to focus on gameplay/story over graphics and modeling. With the upkeep on graphics continually scaling up something has to break because DLC and mass media marking campaigns to sell down to zombies is not cutting it anymore. Anime its derived from manga which dose well even so much so it can pay for a series , but these days you have series over reaching to try and sell down to the masses at a double premium and frankly its a business model that's doomed to fail if the economy suffers to much. They need to scale back on effects and do a series by 6 or 12 ep blocks, if it can not pay itself its better off ended in the middle no matter what it is. If interest is there someone else can finish it off but biting off more than you can chew seems to much of a main stay in modern media thus why they try so hard not to change and try and lobby governments to restrict peoples rights more and more.... be wary people Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) is the US's DMCA forced upon the world and the DMCA is the worse thign to hit copy right since the first 100 year copy right was ok'd .... |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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Zippy, my friend, you're speaking my language. I'm been reading about ACTA and about how screwed up the Copyright Laws are and that 9 times out of 10, copyright holders are often using the copyright law in ways it was never designed for and pushing the legality of threatening people to shut up.
Techdirt.com is one of my favourite sites for this. Shoot, the Obama Administration has been getting hit by a lot of people who are angry over the fact that nobody has seen nor read what is actually in the ACTA agreement. The only ones that know what's in that agreement are several nations who are going to be signging that treaty and it's a little fucked up that the MPAA, the RIAA and the BSA were involved with writing the treaty in the first place. Obama said that there would be transparency yet secret agreements like this are going to end up creating even bigger problems once it gets out what is actually in the bill. The idea of law enforcement or border/customs officers being able to search through my laptop or my iPod without a warrant is truly frightening. For one thing, there's no way to determine whether the contents on your ipod or laptop are legal purchased music and the same with anime and whatnot. Simply because there are software programs that allow you to rip the content from CD's and DVD's and copy it to your computer so you can watch it on your ipod or computer. |
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PlatinumHawke
Posts: 204 |
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Funimation holds what, approximately half the market share and at least 60% of the top money earners -- according to ICV2, last time checked -- so they're not going to go the sub only route. They have deep pockets and a very established brandname. Plus compare what FUNi is picking up, Casshern and Eden of the East for example, compared to what Sentai is. Even Mediablasters has a better line up. The very fact that Queen's Blade gets a dub over Clannad should speak volumes about what sells in the R1 area.
Also, it's amusing to talk about expanding business when the only things expanding are torrent completion and convention attendance numbers. DVD sales aren't rising in proportion. They never have, even before all this fuss over sub-only DVDs came around. As you said, the anime fandom is mostly teenagers nowadays. You know, the most tech savvy generation to exist. Sure, they're are more people that would rather have a dub -- that's been the case ever since the VHS days. But they aren't putting their money where their mouths are, which is why we're now in a market that sees them as unnecessary overhead, rather than the requirement they used to be. How much anime airs on non-specialty channels that isn't strictly selling kids toys fare? English dubs are far less important than what they were 10 years ago when you look at it from a profits perspective. Large very drop in consumers? From what? Maybe if they released Dragonball, Bleach or Hellsing sub-only would you see a slightly massive internet uprising. But... uhh, do you really think the difference in sales for a hybrid and a sub-only release of Neo Angelique -- or just about anything else not licensed by Funimation -- would actually matter to the accounting division? Anime, as a whole, never got out of the niche market status. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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And I have 2345 anime dvds I've purchased by & large without any previews such as fansubs. Most of those were pre-ordered prior to their American release so there really wasn't a way to preview them. And I have 2965 volumes of manga purchased without the use of fansubs
My father-in-law died 2 yrs before I got married, but the tales his son told made him sound like an incredible man. Apparently if he felt something was too expensive (medicine, etc), he just slipped it in his pocket without paying for it. He apparently when shopping would give the grandkids a piece of bulk candy saying the store owed it to them because their parents shopped there all the time. Are you not doing the same? "Give me anime the way I want it, or I'll just take it without paying you for it"
At Comic-Con International the only time anime is shown in English is when the company has only provided the dub. Everything is subbed & in Japanese. 2 yrs or so back some gal sat down with her kids for a few minutes, but then went back to complain it wasn't in english for her kids. The projectionist didn't change over & she left in a huff (or maybe it was a minute & a huff), kids in tow. I've actually seen comments from people that anime subtitles have helped their kids learn to read. Otherwise, aren't Americans pretty lazy? Aren't people lamenting everywhere the death of print in the US? We want the cliff notes version-Reader's Digest condensed books. That's not really a good thing, is it?
See above. There's something called peripheral vision most of us possess. MAYBE on a giant movie screen it's an issue, but on my 25 inch tv I have no problem whatsoever seeing the action AND reading the subtitles. How the hell do you watch football? This guy over here has the ball, yeah, but that guy over there on the other side of the screen just committed a personal foul. Don't hand me the pathetic line human eyes-shy of having a vision problem-cannot see all sorts of things on a tv screen. How do you watch movies in a theater? One of the lousy things about movies is the screens are really big & the directors don't always keep all the action in one place. (damn them!)
As I said
If you & others download fansubs, there's less money for more anime. I vaguely recall something about a goose laying a golden egg which seems to apply here.
Just like my father in law passing bulk candy out to his grandkids & pocketing Contact cold medicine.
There are movies I see in theaters because I figure they're worth the cost of a ticket to see on the big screen. There are movies I wait for on dvd & buy when they are released. There are movies I wait until the price drops. And there are movies I think might be interesting, but I wait for them to hit Showtime which I'm already paying for. If I wait that long for the movie, I don't really call myself a fan. What happened to the idea of paying the creator of something that gives us pleasure? If you eat a meal at a restaurant (good or bad), do you not have to pay for it? If you like an author enough, don't you want to buy the book so the author can have their royalties? If they sell well, they might release another story. Why is this concept lost on you? Are you so special you expect the world to hand you everything on a platter?
ALWAYS? Watch your adverbs A mere decade back the state of anime was flopped manga (Sailor Moon, Sorcerer Hunters) & VHS tapes one had to decide if one wanted subbed or dubbed. Ten-short-years-ago. Fansubs were VHS tapes passed amongst fans & hard to come by. There was something referred to as a fansubber's code that the fansubbers were supposed to drop the subs when the title was licensed because, after all, wasn't it all in the name of getting that title known so it would be licensed?
I said this isn't a copyright debate. There is no damned way in hell you can try to claim non profit based distribution as some noble cause with anime. Public schools copying scripts on a copier to save money-yeah. Schools copying music rather than being forced to buy copies for every student-yes. Taking the latest Stephen King novel ? posting it on your website for free? Hell no. Not to mention, how much are the fansub groups making off those ads? No. No. No and no. There is nothing noble about fansubbing a piece of art someone else made to excuse it as necessary to override copyright. Don't go there. It's like those commercials about the fine print-the toy pony vs the real pony, not being able to ride the bike out of the rectangle, etc. It's legal mumbo jumbo. Do you know the dif between a lawyer & a flounder? One's a scum-sucking bottom feeder & the other's a fish. Yeah, there are good lawyers, but it says something that overall they are so stereotypes as ambulance chasers & amoral. If you build a house, it's yours to live in, to sell--whatever. Why wouldn't the same hold for words you put down on a piece of paper? Why should copyright ever expire? The public didn't pull their hair out making that story, maybe lose sleep over having writer's block. You should be able to pass those words on to your children & your children's children just like that house. |
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Zippydsm
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Copyright was made to let business have a chance now its abused by business as means to limit not only criticisms but fact and history as well(things are edited out of sound and video to not offend copy right laws). Copyright is over reaching and desperate it needs to be pushed back and a line drawn where the the rich can not easily annoy the people with inferiority complex...... As for Bama.......government...same as it ever was....same as it ever was...... US government is now made up of a bunch of bastard nobles(nobles with no blood line) seeking ways to gain more power for themselfs....until lobbying is a crime we are truly better off with anarchy and less taxes.... |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
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Also you have to remember most anime companies in Japan pay for production out of thier own pockets. Big companies don't normally plunk down cash for productions on anime. Funding for production deadlines is handled by the crew themselves |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
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Funimation mainly licenses mainstream titles that appeal to wide audiences, henceforth they can afford to dub just about all thier licenses. The reason why MB is dubbing Queen's Blade is because MB focuses on very small and cheap licenses, since they've never had thier own ADR studio independant studios like Costal Carolina and NYAY Post can handle production on one title. Section23 needs a strong partnership and investor if they want to start dubbing more titles. Like I said, FCI/Pony Canyon shall soon come to the call. But since many titles like the ones Section23 and Rightstuf has don't cater to a large audience only a handfull of titles will be dubbed each year. I see this as a trend for the smaller labels occuring very soon. |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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GrilledEel,
That's exactly my point. If it wasn't for the fansub community, most anime fans wouldn't even bother with anime because ti gives most a chance to see how good the anime series is before it gets released. I know if it wasn't for the fansubs of Haruhi Suzumiya, Girl's Bravo, Stellvia, Negima and others, that I wouldn't have purchased those anime titles on DVD> |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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It's amazing how these topics bring out the capitalist anarchists (hey, how's Somalia doing nowadays?) and those who want companies to quickly off themselves by licensing everything under the sun and dubbing it -- and the second point is only slightly hyperbolic. It's like reality has no bearing on their worldview. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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This is what I mean Anime fans are such wusses My god, how do you decide to waste your $10 for a movie? Watch the trailer? Read some reviews? Word of mouth. Does the theater allow you to watch the entire fricken movie & then ask for your money as you leave only if you enjoyed the show? How do you decide to try out a new restaurant? Coupons? Word of mouth? Reviews? Do you get to eat the meal & then decide it's not to your liking & not pay for it? Fricken wusses dipping your toes in timidly into the water. If you're that worried, don't bother. Better yet, learn your own tastes. Know what appeals to you & thus what you will probably like & wait for reviews, etc on stuff you're not sure of. I go by cast because these VA's often do certain types of shopws. Read the manga. Is there someone in the creative crew you like? I like, for the most part things done by Akahori & Obari so if I see their names attached to a project, I read more about it just as I know I'll probably like any movie Tim Burton directs because I like his visual style. The only reason I can see for anime fans to believe they have some sort of god-given right to view an entire anime series prior to buying it is fansubs. Since I believe in Karma, I have to hope all those fansubbers get their just reward somewhere down the road. (I don't mean jail/whatever. Just an appreciation for the damage they've inflicted on the people who make anime) Zip-lawyers are out of control. It's not just copyright they abuse. Malpractice insurance, all the stuff that's been skewered by lawyers. We don't need anarchy. We need to rein in the lawyers which means re-writing a lot of laws, but the politicians were often lawyers themselves or are in bed with them, so it's not happening all that soon. Has nothing to do with Obama. The worst you can say on his claim to changing how things are done is he was very, very extremely naive My dad had a t-shirt that said old & cantankerous will beat young & enthusiastic anytime Washington is just beating Obama down & he's finding out just how hard it is to change the place |
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Zippydsm
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Meh when government is fully corrupted the bottom tiers might as well live in full blown anarchy, at least under normal anarchy the top tiers are feeling it as well..... then everyone will stop and try and build for something better then in 200 years the process repeats because man is a forgetful douche.... thus is why the US founders say the government/constitution needs to be rejuvenated in blood...."we" simply wont care other wise, tho we might change eventually to be less douchey but I do not see it.....ban lobbying and separate government and money....its the only way we wont fall apart in the new service centric world.
If and I mean if the media industry would make getting your money back a snap then I would buy alot more than I do but since the media industry cares not for consumers there's little need for me to worry about them they will either fail or do well enough without my 200$ a year. Oh I know Bama and dyuba and the skirt chaser are not part of the problem persay they are jsut the end result of the people not paying attention and demanding the 2 party system flush thier douchey and get back to working for the public and not themselfs..... I lean dim and hate the reapers but good god both of them are mini bands of nobles trying to get by by making the public pay for it.... Heres an interesting train of thought, remove the fansubbers from the world then you will have to remove about 60% of the paying customers because alot of new and old fans come from fandom....so its moot to lament the random and minuscule damages they(and file shearing) do. As always business needs to focus on the real issue get the product as cheap as they can and sell it as cheaply as they can, modern licensing is unhelpful on that front the license holder simply should not be paid until the project starts bringing in a profit after costs of making and distribution are paid. Then all that's left is selling the product against itself and I do not really mean against free stuff I mean proper un contaminated subs(with karaoke damnit) for roughly 1$ a ep and then whatever dubbing they can scrap from the barrel for popular support with milined subs in for about 4$ an ep. Then mabye offer a ultimate setup with proper subs and dubs as a 2nd choice for about 4-6$ or offer a 20-40 ep box set for 2-3$ an ep. I do not see any worth while change all I see is the same crap thats going on in Japan more for less more less more for less......... |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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? Why should you get your money back? If you buy the latest Hollywood release on dvd, the store is supposed to give you your money back? You can walk out of a movie & get your money back, but you need to walk out before the movie ends.
I thought it was Power corrupts. It costs so damned much to get into ofc, more than any salary they earn, so it's power & kickbacks. We're well past the idea of citizen politicians.
But why should this model have evolved? Does it exist in any other form of entertainment? And I see more & more people going for streaming on the official sites nowadays, dude. As always business needs to focus on the real issue get the product as cheap as they can and sell it as cheaply as they can, modern licensing is unhelpful on that front the license holder simply should not be paid until the project starts bringing in a profit after costs of making and distribution are paid.
I don't want cheap. I want a certain amount of quality for my money so I'm willing to pay a decent price. I understand the concept something that airs on tv has made a certain amount of its money & thus the dvds can sell cheaper bs something that was made as a pay-per-view or straight to dvd. I don't shop Walmart because my experience is things I buy there don't last as long as things bought elsewhere. And if a studio brings over a title I know had a snowball's chance in hell of being licensed, I am willing to pay a bit more. |
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