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NEWS: Torrent Site Crushed by MPAA


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darknightmare



Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:45 am Reply with quote
The thing about this is no one can really stop this. Never. Sure you can sue and sue till the cows come home but then some one will make a new program or tech and then the downloading will continue. Maybe the internet and the idea of freedow of information is a bit to much for humankind to deal with?
No matter what the MPAA does the people will find a way. The internet is the pandora's box, prehaps humanity was never ready.

PS. I had to write a paper on the internet once. I discovered as I wrote it that no matter what big companies and governments do to stop the spread of information the internet will end up revealing more then they want. Just think about it for a sec...
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Lost_Toys



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:36 am Reply with quote
darknightmare wrote:
The thing about this is no one can really stop this. Never. Sure you can sue and sue till the cows come home but then some one will make a new program or tech and then the downloading will continue.


No one ever claimed that you could ever stop this momentum of free information [which also seems to have taken the form of free "content"].

Think of "illegal" downloads as an ocean, and file sharing programs are the rivers leading to these great bodies. The DoJ, RIAA, MPAA and other international groups are trying to divert, and if possible, dam the traffic leading into the ocean. You can't completely cut it off, but you can scare away the casual user by making the files less acceptable, or putting the fear of God in them [in this case, the fear of financial obligations].

Sword of Whedon -

I was about to post something very similar, but you did it much better than I. Very well said.
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bluechibi



Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:51 am Reply with quote
You can't stop it entirely but if you take down a popular site then of course you're going to stop a hell of a lot of people downloading animes/movies etc.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:59 am Reply with quote
Ahh! but stopping it completely isn't the underlying plan. No no, the plan is to bring it under their wing, like Napster. Then it's a brand new supermarket for movies, TV series, and Video games. Wink
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Necros Antiquor



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 571
Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:02 am Reply with quote
Lilly wrote:
I worry because I downloaded BitTorrent but I never used it. It's already off of my computer. I thought I was going to download stuff but I ended up not doing it because I thought it was wrong.

If you just downloaded BitTorrent, you have not broken the law. The program itself is legal shareware, which can be used in legal ways. I remember the people at redvsblue.com used to use BitTorrent to distribute their episodes of Red vs. Blue: The Blood Gulch Chronicles that they had full legal rights to. (And yes, they had permission from Microsoft and Bungie to make a movie in the Halo engine.) In this way, it's like Kazaa. Sharman Networks, the company that made Kazaa, was taken to court over the massive amount of songs being traded on its network, and it was declared that it was a legal program, and it wasn't Sharman Networks' fault that "some" (RE: the majority of) people used it in an illegal manner. The same goes for BitTorrent: legal program, some people use it for illegal uses.
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AstroNerdBoy



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:41 am Reply with quote
Quote:
So yes, you are hurting people, a lot of people when you don't pay your movie ticket or don't buy those DVDs.


I love this argument. It implies that I have to pay Hollywood for ever piece of crap they produce. If I don't, someone will get hurt, only not the executives, the big name actors, directors, etc.

Guess what? I go to very few movies 'cause most of them don't interest me.

Now here's an interesting thing. If I borrow a DVD from a friend (who legally paid for it), by the argument above, I'm hurting these poor, innocent people because I didn't pay Hollywood to view it.

If my local library has a massive DVD collection that I can check out like a book, again, the above argument states I'm taking food out of the mouths of children.

Let's face it, ultimately there are two major factors going on here. First, MPAA has NEVER gotten over losing court battles giving consumers the right to record stuff off of TV, rent stuff from video rental outlets, or the like. Proof of that will be seen when we Americans are FORCED to convert to HDTV. MPAA has convinced the FCC to enact rules which state that Big Entertainment (MPAA and others) can prevent you from recording HDTV shows whenever they so choose. To make it simple, it would be like having a color TV, but only being allowed to record in black-and-white. However, this is what Big Entertainment has done to get around the Supreme Court ruling on VCR's.

Second, MPAA is desperate to have a complete and total "pay-per-view" system for all movies whereby the consumer will pay them to watch a movie rather than the current system in which I can watch a movie in my collection as many smegging times as I want.

Remember the short-lived "DVD players enhanced with DIVX?" For those who don't, the scheme was that you purchased a DVD player which then had to be hooked up to your phone line. Then, you bought DIVX DVD's (not to be confused with the online encode known as DivX) for the price of a rental. When you popped the DVD into the player, the player then used your phone line to activate the DVD. For the inital play, you were given 48-hours in which to view the movie as many times as you liked. However, after 48-hours, the DVD was unplayable.

You then had two choices. The first was to throw out the DVD because you'd never watch it again. The second was to keep it, but if you wanted to watch it again, you'd have to pay a few dollars to have it reactivated for 24-hours.

MPAA completely endorsed this and promoted it heavily. Fortunately it failed.

My thoughts are, "if you build it, they will come." What do I mean? If you create a great movie, sales will be there as people pay to go to the theater (something that the VCR was supposed to kill), even paying $10/person.

If you create a great show, people will watch. The new Battlestar Galactica was shown in the UK before is started airing in the US. It was a big hit in the UK. It was also a big hit on places like Loki or SuprNova, so much so that Universal began crapping in their pants and Ron Moore issued a letter begging Americans to stop downloading it.

Guess what? They didn't stop downloading, but because it was so popular, SciFi went ahead and ordered six more episodes before the show even started in the US!

Now that the show is getting good ratings for SciFi, they've commited to a full 2nd-season.

And here I thought all those downloads would kill the series. However, the series is so well written, acted, produced, etc, that people come and watch on Friday night (the death night of ratings) even though they can download it right now.

So there needs to be a legal download place where folks can KEEP their downloads and convert them to DVD if they want. In addition, Big Entertainment needs to produce high quality stuff.
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Alchemist449



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 341
Location: LED ZEPPELIN! nuf said
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:14 pm Reply with quote
Just because some one is going to complain about this...
www.rentanime.com

P.S. the MPAA illegal downloading sign is cool
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:18 pm Reply with quote
But the thing is, crap, or block buster, lots of people were involved in it's creation at much cost to the producer and studio. They are hoping and needing to at least break even on it's returns. Again it's not the one, or two people who might borrow a disk from a friend, or family member , that's covered in the price of that disk, or rental fee. It's the availability of it for free to anyone and everyone by a click of a mouse, and that can be the equivalant of a few sold out theatres receipts not gained and the loss of that break even threshold.
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Akumaphyre



Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:36 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Sword of Whedon"]
Quote:


Quote:
The real implication of downloading movies (which I'm sure scares the pants off alot of movie execs) is that now people can determine the quality of a film before they go and see it.


It's more the question of "Gee, I already saw it, why should I pay $10 and spend the time to drive to the theater". Again, incomperable.


Simple going to the movies is a much different experience.
I remember seeing Hero(Jet Li Film) almost two or so years ago on my friends pc, we all saw it for free.
When it came out later though we still all went to the theater and payed our $7.25 to see it.
The theater offers an experience you can't get on the a small screen.
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Stueypark



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 116
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:25 pm Reply with quote
Well, Sweden is a member of the Berne Convention, Brussles Convention, Geneva Convention (not talking about the war crimes one), and Rome Convention. They are all international treaties on copyright.

The various film companies just have to create a swedish law team who can push for prosecution and no one's probably wanted to spend money on that yet.

Even China has been cracking down on copyright infringement lately so there's no real safe spots left.
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zanth



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 14
Location: Somewhere over there.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:52 pm Reply with quote
Thankfully I only ever used Loki to download a few TV shows I had missed and the occasional anime. I've pretty much always felt downloading a movie was not right, because they are easy enough to buy. Sure, sometimes its nice to be able to watch a movie that was just in theatres, but the quality bites compared to a DVD. So I'd rather not waste my time. I think tho, its enough for the MPAA to shut down the sites, without going all RIAA on people. I will miss loki tho, even if I didn't use it often.
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Iron Chef



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 487
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:47 pm Reply with quote
Someone else on another board made mention of this, so I can't take credit for this recycled train of thought.

That person said that he used BT to download some TV shows that he would then copy to his PocketPC and watch at work. He paid for cable, and thus could record it on his TiVo or VCR or whatever to watch later, so how would BT be any different?

To me, this is where things start to get muddy. I think there's some sort of clause in some law verdict somewhere that talks about "reasonable personal use" of copyrighted works or somesuch. (Nice sentence, Chef. Well spake.) As long as you're not monetarily profiting from the presentation, it was understood to be okay.

ANYway, I subscribe to that theory, too. Even though I pay for cable, I still download Iron Chef America and The Shield so that I can watch it in my room when I get home from work. Since the cable box is in the living room upstairs, and all my roomies are asleep then, it's more convenient for me.
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Sword of Whedon



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 683
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:02 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
love this argument. It implies that I have to pay Hollywood for ever piece of crap they produce. If I don't, someone will get hurt, only not the executives, the big name actors, directors, etc.

Guess what? I go to very few movies 'cause most of them don't interest me.

Now here's an interesting thing. If I borrow a DVD from a friend (who legally paid for it), by the argument above, I'm hurting these poor, innocent people because I didn't pay Hollywood to view it.

If my local library has a massive DVD collection that I can check out like a book, again, the above argument states I'm taking food out of the mouths of children.


You're introducing factors that aren't there. You can't steal what you didn't take, so ifthey don't interest you, you're not watching them are you?

If you're borrowing from a friend, the license to view is contained in the physical medium of the DVD. He's transferring it to you.

If you watched it on TV, the station pid to air it, and libraries are fully authorized by all copyright agencies to do what they've been doing for hundreds of years.

Quote:
You then had two choices. The first was to throw out the DVD because you'd never watch it again. The second was to keep it, but if you wanted to watch it again, you'd have to pay a few dollars to have it reactivated for 24-hours.

MPAA completely endorsed this and promoted it heavily. Fortunately it failed.


No they didn't. The MPAA had nothing to do with it, it was up to individual studios, who, suprise didn't all support DiVX.

Quote:
If you create a great show, people will watch. The new Battlestar Galactica was shown in the UK before is started airing in the US. It was a big hit in the UK. It was also a big hit on places like Loki or SuprNova, so much so that Universal began crapping in their pants and Ron Moore issued a letter begging Americans to stop downloading it.


The point they're making is that MORE people would watch had they not had early access. That extra 50,000 people can translate into hundreds of thousands if not millions in lost revenue.

(unrelated rant on)I shed no tears for those roto-rootering true Galactica fans with every episode. They deserved what they got for not airing the show they had in the can in the fall like they should have. "Galactica" stopped production right around the time the UK broadcast started. If it's finished,and there are no legal issues stopping you, show the show. (/off)

Quote:
And here I thought all those downloads would kill the series. However, the series is so well written, acted, produced, etc, that people come and watch on Friday night (the death night of ratings) even though they can download it right now.


Except that Showtime dug the Friday niche for Sci-Fi, who then inherited their programming. A 2.0 gets you muffin baskets from the execs on cable, a 4.5 gets you cancelled on broadcast in the same timeslot.

Quote:
That person said that he used BT to download some TV shows that he would then copy to his PocketPC and watch at work. He paid for cable, and thus could record it on his TiVo or VCR or whatever to watch later, so how would BT be any different?


BT is an issue of unauthorized distribution, not time shifting.

And stop watching Iron Chef America too, it's embarrassing how bad it is Smile, all the heart and soul of the Japanese original bleached right out with chrome and stainless steel.
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jay saenz



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: Costa Rica
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Piracy is like Drug Traffic, it will never die.

Somehow, somewhere, some smart guy will always find a way to distribute software, music or any digital product in illegal ways through the Internet. The only way to stop this is to shut down the whole net... and that is impossible.

Steve Jobs is the only smart guy in the Industry that has applied the phrase: "If you can t against them, join them". People want mp3, give them mp3... he did that and I-TUNES was born, and he had a bite of the juicy internet apple.

Anime industries should do the same. If the people want to watch fansubs, give them fansubs. Japanese companies can establish an internet service that allow people to download anime in legal ways, saving the shipping and importing costs.
I ll be happy to pay less money and watch the same anime through legal ways, because i don t care about good looking boxes, i care about the anime itself.

Piracy will never die, but the industry can get some money out of the P2P systems too, if they are smart enough to use the Internet instead of fighting against it. It seem that the people is the only one that acknowleage that the Internet can be used for something more than posting nice and empty flash made websites...
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AstroNerdBoy



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:25 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
But the thing is, crap, or block buster, lots of people were involved in it's creation at much cost to the producer and studio. They are hoping and needing to at least break even on it's returns. Again it's not the one, or two people who might borrow a disk from a friend, or family member , that's covered in the price of that disk, or rental fee. It's the availability of it for free to anyone and everyone by a click of a mouse, and that can be the equivalant of a few sold out theatres receipts not gained and the loss of that break even threshold.


Mohawk! Long to no see. Glad you are still around (you really should drop by AFC and see some of your old AIC friends).

I firmly believe in supporting stuff I like, whether it is music, anime, TV shows, movies, or whatever. As my parents have pointed out, had I not spent all that money, I could easily own a house now.

That aside, if you lend me some DVD's that you've purchased and I hate them, I'm not going to buy my own copy of those DVD's. Therefore, folks have been harmed because you lent me your DVD's and I didn't like what I saw.

On the other hand, lets say you lent me Last Exile and I loved it so much that I went out and purchased the set for my own. Now you've done a favor to the people who worked to bring this series to life.

BT does the same thing in many aspects. I see anime series fresh from Japan. Some titles I don't like and thus skip. Other titles I love and thus buy, even though I have downloaded the titles and have them on my HD.

Quote:
You're introducing factors that aren't there. You can't steal what you didn't take, so ifthey don't interest you, you're not watching them are you?

If you're borrowing from a friend, the license to view is contained in the physical medium of the DVD. He's transferring it to you.

If you watched it on TV, the station pid to air it, and libraries are fully authorized by all copyright agencies to do what they've been doing for hundreds of years.


Here's the deal -- the arguments Big Entertainment is making against BitTorrent are the same ones they made against the VCR. They are the same arguments they made against video rental stores. They are the same arguments they made against my selling used videos to others.

What was the argument? Recording something off of the TV is theft. Buying one copy of a movie and renting it to folks is theft. Selling a used video is theft.

Why are the arguments the same? Because ultimately as I see it, Big Entertainment wants the consumer to pay them for every viewing, period.

Quote:
The point they're making is that MORE people would watch had they not had early access. That extra 50,000 people can translate into hundreds of thousands if not millions in lost revenue.


Which is why BigEntertainment still hates the VCR and now the DVR. When it comes to the Nielsen ratings, people who record a show to watch later don't count in the ratings because they can skip the commercials in the "time shift" argument. And that's why Big Entertainment is going killing the HD-DVRs or other HD-recording equipment so that they can prevent you from "time-shifting" programs they don't want you to record.

My point is that if 50,000 folks recorded a show on a Friday night while they were out "having a life", that could translate into hundreds of thousands if not millions in lost revenue because they aren't counted in the ratings.

So the argument against BT is the same as it has been for nearly 25-years against other things. BT won't end BE any more than the VCR did, the video rental store did, or the selling of used videos did. Folks will still support the stuff they like and shun the stuff they hate.
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