Forum - View topicNEWS: Nymphet Manga to Bundle "Unairable" Anime DVD in Japan
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Daemonblue
 Posts: 701 |
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From what I've read so far, there has been no mention of her actual age, only that she is in the 3rd grade. When they start school is different from when American's start school, not just in what season, but at what age. If her birthday was after I think it's April 1st, such as April 5th, she could be one of the oldest in her class. Any way you look at it though, she is at the age where she may start to mature physically. Sure, it might not be common with normal people her age, but as I mentioned before in another thread, one thing having to deal with when the body matures is past experiences. There have been cases where young girls started developing when they would be ~ 1st or 2nd grade because their lives have been stressful to say the least. Also, I'd like to point out that one of her classmates is also a wee bit ahead of her time, and is being picked on for that (which is also why the parents, in some situations, will ask that their child receives hormone treatments to stop the growth for the time being). Anyway, other than that small bit the rest of your post was well thought out, though I must say that we have taken the whole "protect our children" thing to an extreme level to the point where we're prosecuting minors for sexually abusing themselves and on top of that giving them a social stigma that will follow them for the rest of their life. Honestly, I think before we debate about titles such as this, we should review our laws and change them so that they're more precise on who they target because I don't want to have to here about another case in which a minor is prosecuted for abusing herself or one such as the boy in Georgia who received I think it was 20 years for a girl 3 years younger giving him the same thing Clinton received, when it would have been alright if they did it the normal way (they changed the law, but they also made it so it doesn't affect past cases....). That being said...there's tons of laws that really do need to be changed in this country (come on, who's gonna be able to shoot awhale from their car in Tennessee) and we should really focus on removing/changing the old ones that affect us still today... It's a real shame I can't help change my states laws though, cause in Louisiana the public no longer has the right to submit laws to the state parliament, unlike every other state, and I must thank our racist ancestors for that one... |
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mskala
 Posts: 45 Location: Waterloo, Ontario |
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That's what I'm talking about. I'm not allowed to make the suggestion that an eight-year-old could be fully aware of sex because it's not true, and it's so firmly not true that the discussion has to be closed because it's so important for everyone to understand that this idea is not true, and so on. Anybody who asks for evidence of why the idea is not true is suspect, because they must be looking for excuses to believe that it might not be not true, and that's not allowed. Thank you for at least not calling me a pervert. The mainstream reaction would be to call me a pervert just for mentioning the idea of sexually aware 8-year-old, even though I in no way advocated it or said it was true. That idea is just absolutely forbidden. So because KnJ has an eight-year-old in it who is represented as actually being fully aware of sex, then KnJ is unacceptable. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Daemonblue
Posts: 701 |
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Chapters 11 and 12 from Volume 2 show a good enough explanation as to why she would know about that kind of stuff. Don't forget, their society is very different from ours, and considering the limits on space in areas of Japan as well as money considering the situation, well, let's just say that some homes/apartments aren't that big, and their walls aren't exactly sound proofed, not to mention a child's curiosity.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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My hat's off to you, mskala. A great article to directly hit the bull's eye of the source of this fear: that children are capable to make independent choices.
I'd like to recommend Mon Seul to anyone who has not been disgusted by Kodomo no Jikan. It is not easy to find though; as far as I know, there's no scanlation, so one has to import it from Japan or Taiwan. The story of Mon Seul has nothing comedic; it depicts many problems of an average Japanese household in a realistic and heartbreaking (but not horrifying or scary) manner, including how little girls make their own choices. Narutaru and Bokurano are also excellent titles on children's awareness (not necessary related to sex).
You just proved mskala's point brilliantly. 
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Unholy_Nny
 Posts: 622 |
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*ahem* Children should be able to make their own choices! Let's banish juvenile court so 16 year olds get 4+ months in jail and a fine for committing a misdemeanor!
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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My problem with all of these arguments - and now we're getting into some numbingly obtuse arguments - is that they can ALL be boiled down to promoting the casual acceptance of sexualizing children.
There is a reason people are "afraid" of that concept - it scars children for life, deeply, irrevocably. It is one of the most harmful things you can do, to empower a child molestor or a pedophile by allowing them to think that at ANY point, sexualizing a child is OK. It needs to remain taboo. If you break down all the walls of morality in the name of absolute personal freedom, you wind up with Rome, and we all know what happened there. So you can argue about fear all you like, and then try to invalidate that fear, but you're missing a big chunk of the equation when you leave out the notion that this all leads down a road that isn't worth taking. You're arguing here that we're "afraid" of Kodomo no Jikan because it suggests that children are capable of making these sorts of decisions on their own, but there's a mountain of research out there that proves otherwise. How much do you know about child psychology to be making these bold statements that fly in the face of commonly-accepted knowledge that children of that age are not yet emotionally or physically mature enough to handle the sorts of things that Rin does in Kodomo no Jikan? Are you not familiar with what 'puberty" is and the chief reason human beings go through it? I don't understand. Talk all you want about how Kodomo no Jikan bravely challenges our notions about sexuality in children, but all I see is tasteless, thinly-veiled erotica aimed at a particular fetish group. The comic is not very sophisticated in its approach to the subject matter; it's all played for cheap, "titillating" laughs, labeled a comedy but clearly rife with obvious pandering sexual undercurrents. If you want to write a challenging story that raises important questions about sexuality in today's children, then give that story the important and sincere weight it needs; these are serious issues. Splashing the pages with gratuitous nude scenes, panty shots and "come inside me teacher" jokes is tasteless and at no point suggests the author had educational or thought-provoking intentions. The argument is again rife with the "Kodomo no Jikan isn't that bad" language which to me invalidates most of what you're saying. I found it shocking and terrible. The people who aren't familiar with lolicon manga that I've shown it to also found it shocking and terrible. "Not that bad" is completely subjective, and so far seems to only come from the mouths of those who routinely digest "worse". |
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Unholy_Nny
Posts: 622 |
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Zac made a serious point about sexualizing children, but I still think it could be used for non-serious comedic purposes.
And does anyone else think that some of these posts seem that they should belong on a NAMBLA message board and not an anime message board? |
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Daemonblue
Posts: 701 |
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Hate to be nit-picky, but just to mention that all of this is coming from a person who has the anime representation of Vlad the Impaler as an avatar~
Also, no, we don't all know what happened with Rome cause our education system isn't exactly the world's finest, not to mention that there are several theories about the fall of Rome, but no conclusive proof as of yet, though there are some very good theories, most of which have nothing to do with morals, but more to do with the Germanic people, religion, and their military.....hmmm, that actually sounds like something rather familiar....Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Your normal person most likely will see this as child smut, but haven't we been taught that we can't judge a book from it's cover? Sure, you may have to really look into a work such as this to find meanings such as the ones that have been proposed, but then does that mean that we're thinking too much, or that does who don't see those possibilities aren't thinking enough? I don't have an answer for that, but either way, that just shows that this can be translated on many different levels, considering the reader's background as well as experiences. Does that mean that a child acting in a manner such as hers in real life is a good thing? It most definately does not, nor do I wish to see one as young as that act in a manner, but, sadly enough, there are cases, though just not with their teachers. Children aren't the innocent angels that society makes them out to be, and neither are they lust ridden animals, but rather they are normal human beings who most likely haven't learned right from wrong in several cases and are very curious and imaginative. As I lost my train of thought, I will now finish this post with a bow. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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OMG Zac is teh Devil! Seriously, I think you just proved that youre running outta arguements. Sorry, maybe I've missed your point, but explain the logic behind: "If someone has a picture of a fictional character based on dracula as his avatar, his arguements must somehow be less valid." |
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mskala
Posts: 45 Location: Waterloo, Ontario |
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How much do you know about child psychology? How much of that is "commonly accepted knowledge" and how much is really factual? And how did asking a question become making a bold statement? I never said that eight-year-olds can make sexual decisions. I said that this manga is about an eight-year-old who is claimed (in the story's FICTIONAL universe) to be able to make sexual decisions... and I said that that's against commonly accepted knowledge, and I said that that makes the manga threatening, and your response proves that I was right. I'm not allowed to ask the question because it's forbidden to raise the possibility that commonly accepted knowledge on this topic could ever be wrong, even in a fictional universe. It happens that real studies have been done on these kinds of questions in the real world, but I'm not going to make bold statements about what those studies might have showed, because I don't think anyone would pay attention anyway. Real people decide these kinds of questions on the basis of their commonly accepted knowledge, not on the basis of anything testable. We don't want to know the real answers because we already KNOW what the answers have got to be. It's commonly accepted. |
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Daemonblue
Posts: 701 |
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Ohwas nothing meant to mean his arguement was less valid, just that Zac is using something from an anime about Vampires which are known as demons that suck human blood (and in the anime tend to be ultra violent) and are also beings that, in the original context, are very lustful (similar to Succubi and Incubi), and yet he's saying sexualizing children is wrong. So in essence, by using that as an avatar as well as with his statements, one can assume the user is one that is ok with super violent acts and is ok with those super violent acts being sexual in nature, as long as they don't contain any people in elementary school. Of course I'm not using this as my defense, though I'm just pointing out that there's a little bit of irony going around, and that if I can find it, I'm sure others can as well.
As I mentioned before, I'm not one to judge a book by it's cover, especially since the cover on the book that is one that is very thick and very heavy, just pointing out a few ironies. Edit: Also, I'm not saying Zac is extremely violent or likes super violent sexual situations, just that a new user or the like has the capability of seeing it that way. Last edited by Daemonblue on Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steventheeunuch
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BWAAHAHAHAHA That is quite possibly the worst comeback in the entirety of existance. *bows out* |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Well, so what conclusion then are you trying to point people toward? What's the purpose of saying this, aside from attempting to validate Kodomo no Jikan by questioning the foundation of our understanding of juvenile sexuality? I don't really "get" what your point is. You seem to be asking a lot of very typical "Well maybe it's society that's wrong, not this comic book" style pointed questions without any real conclusion. I get the notion that you approve of Kodomo no Jikan, and have even used the "there's worse stuff out there so this is OK" defense, but I'm not sure what all this philosophical wank has to do with anything, unless you're attempting to come to some kind of conclusion. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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a). they have been told it's alright to be like that as part of their education, or b) a child has been left to its own devices with no teaching or supervision, but learning about life by observing the actions and examples of irresponsible adults encountered. Most independant choices made by a young child will 9 out 10 times be the wrong choice that will put the child in some sort of peril either physically, or emotionally, or both. any of which will scar that child for life. and will also cause that child to act in the same way when eventually an adult so perpetuating the symptom of the syndrome, simply because they know no better. That is why it is so important that the best education is provided by society to put a child on the right set of rules and knowledge to live healthily and happily. They have to look toward those responsible for their wellbeing for that to happen. A situation like Rin is too degraceful and repulsive to even think about in fiction let alone in real life, and to say "it's alright, because I've seen worst" just makes it even more repulsive exponentially. For Rin to act like that is blatantly obvious that she was taught all she knows by someone who did not teach her that it is wrong to act that way. A shameful situation obviously even by Japanese standards me thinks. |
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