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I still don't understand to what extent the Japanese anime industry has come to rely on profits from North America for support. A lot of the shows I watch on fansubs will obviously never be R1 licensed, either because they're not particularly good (Kanokon, Crystal Blaze) or because they are so thoroughly Japanese that they wouldn't make much sense to the average American (Amatsuki, Natsume Yuujinchou)--or both. Surely the Japanese aren't expecting to make any money for these shows over here, are they?

I think the main reason Japan has to cut back it's anime industry is because they flooded the market for the past few years and many fans have enough anime to satisfy themselves for the next few years.

There's a misconception that most people who don't buy anime do so because they feel it should be free, but most who don't buy it aren't buying because they just don't have the money. They don't have an income, or if they do it's spent on essentials. They might buy a couple anime movies a year but they're never going to spend $100 or more on a series.

>_> hell, I missed this panel.

@__@; In all honesty....I don't even remember a recent show that has been "Americanized" except for Shin-chan and anything that 4Kids makes. I think that comment was a bit irrelevant, but that's pretty much all I can say.

writerpatrick wrote:

There's a misconception that most people who don't buy anime do so because they feel it should be free, but most who don't buy it aren't buying because they just don't have the money. They don't have an income, or if they do it's spent on essentials. They might buy a couple anime movies a year but they're never going to spend $100 or more on a series.

It's not really a complete misconception, I just talked to my boyfriend the other day. He said he wouldn't care about buying a DVD because of the fact that he can watch it for free. Anime hyper

And honestly, he DOES have the money to purchase it. He watches a lot of anime, but I don't see anything on his shelf.

He asked me why I don't watch it for free, and I told him that I wanted to purchase my physical copies. In the end he probably wouldn't pay for a subscription service or anything of the sort, I think. *shrugs.*

Kireek wrote:

Quote:

Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.

I totally agree with this....Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people don't want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.

Actually, I'll debate you on this--I am really not moved by extras, but by price-point. Mediablasters "Strawberry Panic" bare bones, sub-only release is perfect. I never listen to dubs anyway and the 22.99 SRP leads to a easy to swallow 14.99(Best Buy) for five episodes. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have Bandai releasing "Sola", sub-only, with a couple 'cool' extras at a 49.99 SRP for THREE episodes. As much as I like this show, it's never making it into my house at that price; hell, the entire "Haruhi" box set is only 59.98 SRP. The distributors that realize that the bulk of American fandom want quality at an affordable price, rather than bells and whistles at a grossly inflated price will win this particular race.
Hell, I's even be willing to pay a bit more for decently styled subs, rather that something that looks like it was added on as an afterthought by somebody in productions summer intern. It's actually a bit sad to say that only the "bad guys" seem to care about readability and making the subs seem a part of the show, rather that an intrusion.

tygerchickchibi wrote:

>_> hell, I missed this panel.

@__@; In all honesty....I don't even remember a recent show that has been "Americanized" except for Shin-chan and anything that 4Kids makes. I think that comment was a bit irrelevant, but that's pretty much all I can say.

writerpatrick wrote:

There's a misconception that most people who don't buy anime do so because they feel it should be free, but most who don't buy it aren't buying because they just don't have the money. They don't have an income, or if they do it's spent on essentials. They might buy a couple anime movies a year but they're never going to spend $100 or more on a series.

It's not really a complete misconception, I just talked to my boyfriend the other day. He said he wouldn't care about buying a DVD because of the fact that he can watch it for free. Anime hyper

And honestly, he DOES have the money to purchase it. He watches a lot of anime, but I don't see anything on his shelf.

He asked me why I don't watch it for free, and I told him that I wanted to purchase my physical copies. In the end he probably wouldn't pay for a subscription service or anything of the sort, I think. *shrugs.*

There will always be these guys, they also probably still download music for free. Reality is the cost does deter many of us, and the fact the a lot of it simply isn't available in R1. I mean, if I could find "Rec", "Yotsunoha", "W-Wish", "Mahoraba", "Lamune" ...I could go on. I can't spend money on what isn't offered, and I've always taken a bit of offense to the claim that I'm hurting an industry that I would love to support. I buy what I can afford, and would love to pay for GOOD quality downloads (something I have not seen much of yet) if they ever become available, but, they have to be there first.

tygerchickchibi wrote:

>_> hell, I missed this panel.

@__@; In all honesty....I don't even remember a recent show that has been "Americanized" except for Shin-chan and anything that 4Kids makes. I think that comment was a bit irrelevant, but that's pretty much all I can say.

I wish this would have been clarified as well. What is this Americanization/bastardizing that keeps coming up when referring to the official translations compared to fansub translations? Is it stuff like removing honorifics and not leaving random words left untranslated? Because to me, I would consider the translations found on DVD subtitle tracks as the proper and preferable method.

krelyan wrote:

tygerchickchibi wrote:

>_> hell, I missed this panel.

@__@; In all honesty....I don't even remember a recent show that has been "Americanized" except for Shin-chan and anything that 4Kids makes. I think that comment was a bit irrelevant, but that's pretty much all I can say.

I wish this would have clarified as well. What is this Americanization/bastardizing that keeps coming up when referring to the official translations compared to fansub translations? Is it stuff like removing honorifics and not leaving random words left untranslated? Because to me, I would consider the translations found on DVD subtitle tracks as the proper and preferable method.

A better example would be from the beginning of "Happy Lesson" where the class president continually refers to Chitose as "Mr Hitotose". That leap of formality is jarring, unrealistic and, really, untranslatable into English. If they don't want to use the honorifics, they need to simply drop them entirely. Another example, from "Strawberry Panic" et al, is the translation of "onii-san" and "onee-san" as brother and sister in non-familial circumstances. Sadly, S-P is particularly bad at times with "sister Nagisa" making the lead sound like a nun (really a funny thought, if you have watched the show). I have hope that Nozomi will handle this better in "Maria-sama".

Okay, what I don't get is this: fansubbers always bring up "Americanization", "censorship", and "editing" of US anime as one of their chief arguments... and yet, maybe this is just me, but I seriously can't recall a single anime to come out in the last 5 years that was not given a fully uncut, bilingual DVD release. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but it seems to me like people who make this argument are stuck in the past.

billborden wrote:

Kireek wrote:

Quote:

Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.

I totally agree with this....Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people don't want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.

Actually, I'll debate you on this--I am really not moved by extras, but by price-point. Mediablasters "Strawberry Panic" bare bones, sub-only release is perfect. I never listen to dubs anyway and the 22.99 SRP leads to a easy to swallow 14.99(Best Buy) for five episodes. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have Bandai releasing "Sola", sub-only, with a couple 'cool' extras at a 49.99 SRP for THREE episodes. As much as I like this show, it's never making it into my house at that price; hell, the entire "Haruhi" box set is only 59.98 SRP. The distributors that realize that the bulk of American fandom want quality at an affordable price, rather than bells and whistles at a grossly inflated price will win this particular race.
Hell, I's even be willing to pay a bit more for decently styled subs, rather that something that looks like it was added on as an afterthought by somebody in productions summer intern. It's actually a bit sad to say that only the "bad guys" seem to care about readability and making the subs seem a part of the show, rather that an intrusion.

You have a point there, maybe I was being Opinionated I like me bells and whistles with my DVDs you see (I brought the Haruhri LE box). But I also hear the normal version is also a quality realease....Either way I think all of us would like to see a decent realeases at affordable prices.

(And yes I also found it somewhat of a joke at times that the fansubbers did a better job than the official DVD realease on more that one occasion)

Last edited by luisedgarf on Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

billborden wrote:

krelyan wrote:

tygerchickchibi wrote:

>_> hell, I missed this panel.

@__@; In all honesty....I don't even remember a recent show that has been "Americanized" except for Shin-chan and anything that 4Kids makes. I think that comment was a bit irrelevant, but that's pretty much all I can say.

I wish this would have clarified as well. What is this Americanization/bastardizing that keeps coming up when referring to the official translations compared to fansub translations? Is it stuff like removing honorifics and not leaving random words left untranslated? Because to me, I would consider the translations found on DVD subtitle tracks as the proper and preferable method.

A better example would be from the beginning of "Happy Lesson" where the class president continually refers to Chitose as "Mr Hitotose". That leap of formality is jarring, unrealistic and, really, untranslatable into English. If they don't want to use the honorifics, they need to simply drop them entirely. Another example, from "Strawberry Panic" et al, is the translation of "onii-san" and "onee-san" as brother and sister in non-familial circumstances. Sadly, S-P is particularly bad at times with "sister Nagisa" making the lead sound like a nun (really a funny thought, if you have watched the show). I have hope that Nozomi will handle this better in "Maria-sama".

Yeah, but keeping them will make the series looks too way stereotyped, insulting to the target language and it considered as a sutile form of racism, like in this example that happened to me some years ago:

I talked with an American guy from NY, who in the first time that we met in person, he told me:

- Hello, Señor Flores!

And I answered in this way:

- That's Mr. Flores for you, pal! We're talking in English, not in Spanish!

And he was ashamed for that faux pax. You shouldn't do the same with every single foreign language, just to be purist. Confused

gatotsu911 wrote:

Okay, what I don't get is this: fansubbers always bring up "Americanization", "censorship", and "editing" of US anime as one of their chief arguments... and yet, maybe this is just me, but I seriously can't recall a single anime to come out in the last 5 years that was not given a fully uncut, bilingual DVD release. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but it seems to me like people who make this argument are stuck in the past.

I may be wrong, but this may come from some of the script changes between the English sub and the English dub. They can vary quite a bit, and the sub is almost always closer the the original Japanese.
<One small pet peeve, the transition of personal and family names in SUBS--come on guys, when we hear Aoi Nagisa on the soundtrack, but read Nagisa Aoi on the sub, it's a bit annoying>

gatotsu911 wrote:

Okay, what I don't get is this: fansubbers always bring up "Americanization", "censorship", and "editing" of US anime as one of their chief arguments... and yet, maybe this is just me, but I seriously can't recall a single anime to come out in the last 5 years that was not given a fully uncut, bilingual DVD release. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but it seems to me like people who make this argument are stuck in the past.

I agree with you on this one, but there were different groups on that panel and the ones talking about this particular issue were talking about older anime, not the new ones.

Also there is "Shin Chan" if you care for a recent example that goes against what you are saying. It is rare in this day and age to have no uncut choice, but it does still happen from time to time.

luisedgarf wrote:

]

Yeah, but keeping them will make the series looks too way stereotyped, insulting to the target language and it considered as a sutile form of racism, like in this example that happened to me some years ago:

I talked with an American guy from NY, who in the first time that we met in person, he told me:

- Hello, [/i]Señor Flores!

And I answered in this way:

- That's [i]Mr. Flores for you, pal! We're talking in English, not in Spanish!

And he was ashamed for that faux pax. You shouldn't do the same with every single foreign language, just to be purist. Confused

While I respect your personal feelings, I have never run into a similar response from my Japanese friends or their families, and I acknowledged that they could be dropped altogether. The problem arises in terms and usages that do not have a good translation due to social differences. Japanese society is linguistically more formal than American society. Few American wives would ever refer to their husbands as Mr. Smith, but a Japanese wife referring to her husband as Asakura-san is not terribly out of place. I'm not necessarily claiming that the Japanese people are more formal, but their linguistic politeness structures are simply more hierarchical than comparative English structures. Because of that, direct translation always sounds at best stilted; at worst, just wrong. If you don't want to leave them unchanged (the format that most manga now published in America use), then simply eliminate them altogether; don't fumble with a poor translation.

Kireek wrote:

billborden wrote:

Kireek wrote:

Quote:

Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.

I totally agree with this....Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people don't want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.

Actually, I'll debate you on this--I am really not moved by extras, but by price-point. Mediablasters "Strawberry Panic" bare bones, sub-only release is perfect. I never listen to dubs anyway and the 22.99 SRP leads to a easy to swallow 14.99(Best Buy) for five episodes. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have Bandai releasing "Sola", sub-only, with a couple 'cool' extras at a 49.99 SRP for THREE episodes. As much as I like this show, it's never making it into my house at that price; hell, the entire "Haruhi" box set is only 59.98 SRP. The distributors that realize that the bulk of American fandom want quality at an affordable price, rather than bells and whistles at a grossly inflated price will win this particular race.
Hell, I's even be willing to pay a bit more for decently styled subs, rather that something that looks like it was added on as an afterthought by somebody in productions summer intern. It's actually a bit sad to say that only the "bad guys" seem to care about readability and making the subs seem a part of the show, rather that an intrusion.

You have a point there, maybe I was being Opinionated I like me bells and whistles with my DVDs you see (I brought the Haruhri LE box). But I also hear the normal version is also a quality realease....Either way I think all of us would like to see a decent realeases at affordable prices.

(And yes I also found it somewhat of a joke at times that the fansubbers did a better job than the official DVD realease on more that one occasion)

I hate that the most. Of all the anime dvds I own, I can't be bothered to watch any of them in Japanese with the subtitles enabled because they're either poorly done in readability or viewability. I bought the overpriced boxsets for kaleido star and watched the entire thing dub despite my distaste for the voice talent because the subtitles were beginning to ware on my eyes, which was a shame because ADV actually didn't do to bad in the readability department with how the sentences were constructed. Then I look over at my Princess tutu boxset and wonder why they felt the need to translate Ahiru's name to "Duck" even in the subtitles Confused

Overall I really enjoyed watching the stream of this panel, it really does burn into the minds of anime fans that we should stop looking at this an anime industry vs. fansubs sort of thing and more as an anime industry x fansubs working together to find a middle a ground because fansubs are never going to go away. Plus I see panels like this as more forward thinking into finding actual answers that will benefit and help the R1 and anime industry in general out of its rut rather than Mr. Ayre's (as much as I like the guy Anime smallmouth

) fansubbing panel which is really preaching at a group of people who don't care to listen and does nothing but dig up a ton of animosity and intolerance.

gatotsu911 wrote:

Okay, what I don't get is this: fansubbers always bring up "Americanization", "censorship", and "editing" of US anime as one of their chief arguments... and yet, maybe this is just me, but I seriously can't recall a single anime to come out in the last 5 years that was not given a fully uncut, bilingual DVD release. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but it seems to me like people who make this argument are stuck in the past.

It's not just you I get the impression that the people complaining about Americanization on the DVDs haven't actually bought a DVD in awhile. And this is coming from someone who watches fansubs and then buys the DVDs. I am usually always pleased with the official subtitle translation and recently more and more pleased with the dubs.

Stretch2424 wrote:

or because they are so thoroughly Japanese that they wouldn't make much sense to the average American (Amatsuki, Natsume Yuujinchou)

What about Twelve Kingdoms and Mushishi? Two series somewhat similar to the ones you mentioned and both were licensed.

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