Forum - View topicChicks on Anime [2008-09-09]
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gatotsu911
Posts: 457 Location: US of East Coast |
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Hey, there's no need to be confrontational. For starters, I'm by no means saying that any anime aimed at least partially at a male audience with a likable, even endearing - even, yes, cute - young female protagonist(s) is inherently suspect. Spirited Away, Animation Runner Kuromi, Azumanga Daioh - I would call it a stretch to find anything like this alarming. It's all about the intention behind a work - when that is not so clear cut, that's when things start to get a little more unsettling for me. When the dialogue segues into sexually suggestive subject matter - which it VERY frequently does, at least in the "moe" anime I'm familiar with - that's where things start to get divisive. Also, I WOULD say that Air and the like is indeed completely innocuous, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE SOURCE MATERIAL. If I'd not know that Air was based on a hentai game, I would never have suspected anything sinister about it. But I DO know that, and knowing that inevitably puts a different spin on my perception. The thing is the line between series that are truly innocuous and those that have less wholesome undertones can become VERY blurred. Take, for example, Ruri from Martian Successor Nadesico. She is a unique, quirky and self-sufficient character, one who is easy to feel affection for and easy to be fond of in a completely acceptable way, whether you're male or female. But then in episode 20 they have her in a SWIMSUIT and have guys drooling over her. And she's supposed to be TWELVE. That sorta freaked me out. My biggest problem with moe, to be honest, is most frequently in the characters who exemplify it. Very rarely do they seem to be self-sufficient, intelligent and complex individuals. Too often I find their characters to be uncomfortably simplistic, even in stories that try to add more "depth" to them. They ultimately seem to be treated more like pets than like human beings. THAT'S what bothers me the most. It's not, "Well this is such a likable and pure-hearted little girl, she really gives me hope," it's more like "Awwww, that's just so adorable", like a pet, even though it has no basis in reality. It's the objectification that I find so distasteful. I have no problem at all with a female character is cute and quirky as long as she's also portrayed as a realistic, three-dimensional human being and clearly not an embodiment of male fantasies. You love your daughter as a human being, in all the variety that entails, not as this shallow idealized portrait. I don't buy the "paternal instinct" argument for a number of reasons, which I don't really have time to delve into at the moment. But anyway, my tirade isn't against cuteness, it's against moe in particular - which, I suppose means a different thing to me personally than it might mean to you.[/i] |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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This sentiment is fueled that by the common belief that most moe straddles the line between moe and lolicon. This isn't true, but there are several cases where moe also does just that. You also bring up another good point implying that it may not be bad to to like moe even if it has connotations of a sexual nature. The problem lies with the assertion itself. Most fandom and probably nearly all non anime watchers frown upon adults have any kind sexual feeling towards a pre-teen regardless of the context, situation, medium or other mitigating circumstances. Does this mean that all fans that like sexually motivated moe are all pedophiles? No. However, do fans who like this particular type of moe have higher chance to have these tendencies than the average anime fan? Likely so. The masses draw their information from generalizations despite the innocent it may incriminate. This is done purely because it can save time over making judgments on a case by case basis. However, I personally believe that most moe fans are not motivated this way. They are just victims of being part of a group that I believe has a higher likelihood of having these tendencies. On a side point, I agree with one of the above posters that not all moe is sexually motivated. Moe can be fueled by sentiments and pure innocence even when the sexual element is left out entirely. An easy example is Yotsuba. Her cluelessness and lack of familiarity leads to many moe moments. Any hints of romance or sexualization are absent. The pure intent of the show can also supported by the wholesome morale of the manga; enjoy every part of life even the mundane. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I guess with this, I just don't personally understand what it's like to be in the position of the customer. Maybe you could shed some light on the matter. What does one do with a body pillow with a character's image on it? If you just wanted something to hug, why not a plain pillow? Why not a stuffed animal? Part of my confusion is that I, personally, have never been a very touchy-feely person. Outside from some celebratory hugs on sports teams when I was in high school, or tearful college departures, I've never been one to hug people outside of significant others or my gay best friend. So to me, it's hard to imagine wanting to curl up in bed next to anyone for comfort, I guess. It's not just moe characters, either. When I see Hannah Montana pillows at Target, I'm completely confused as to their purpose. Why would you want to wake up and have Miley Cyrus' face staring at you? Obviously the little girls who buy those pillows don't have a problem with it, but I just don't get it. So maybe it's one of those, "It's not you, it's me," things. I have a billion stuffed animals, but zero dolls. Human figures have never really provided comfort to me, so maybe that's why I don't get it. |
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skyesage
 Posts: 97 |
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Out of curiosity, isn't it true that moe was often thought to have started in Mahou Shojo series created by women?
I know that many people classify Sakura in Cardcaptor Sakura as being very moe and I think you see that taken to its logical conclusion in her character in Tsubasa, who is very much moe without being young...though highly innocent I must confess. I think that if one was to call yaoi the equivalent, you'd have to more say that shonen ai evokes many of the same feelings as moe, because shonen ai lacks the sexuality of yaoi and moe the sexuality of lolicon. A very interesting article though, and I'd just like to point out how could body pillows not be considered sexual, since that almost implies that the body pillow has "boobs" and stuff. And figures, as well, can be very sexual (helloooo removable clothes  )
I mean, there are extremes of course, and I love Strawberry Marshmallow and Azumanga Daioh, and would probably enjoy Air and Kanon. So there you go. A good issue though! I love how this gets you thinking! 
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Soul Tsukino
 Posts: 68 Location: Maine |
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SakechanBD, am I allowed to be Biased and say this is the most awesome of articles?
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Well, let me just point this out. After spending an hour or two of going through the story and making the correct options, there are (in the PC 18+ version) a whopping two H pictures for whichever character's route you finished. Even then, Air was released on PS2, without ANY sort of erotic images, and guess what? It sold! A lot! In fact, it sold so much that Key's next "visual novel" (a term much more appropriate and not as rude as "hentai game"), Clannad, was released without any sort of erotic images at all! None! It also was extremely successful. Key followed with Planetarian and Little Busters! each was released without any sort of H content whatsoever. So now, if men buy/play such moe games just for sexual content, how could a game featuring no such sexual content be able to sell so extremely well? Hentai games and visual novels must be separated. One has the focus on sexual depictions, whereas the other focuses on the characters and the story. |
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tasogarenootome
 Posts: 593 |
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Again, another very well done article, ladies. You've come a long way from week one. I liked that you brought up BL manga with moe - my roomie and I were just talking about that last night, as I was asking her what she thought the appeal of it was and she mentioned something similar to what you guys are saying. She also mentioned that maybe it was a desire of Japanese women to see men actually acting in a loving manner, even if it was towards other men. At the end of the day, it's food for thought to think about people of both genders wanting to break out of their expected gender roles.
At the same time, what are some manga/anime/tv shows/books that sprout from the concept of one gender desiring that members of another gender act more "in character" (ie: shoujo manga with more traditionally "manly" men)? I guess moe kinda fits that role if we say innoncence is a feminine quality... |
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Rin Tohsaka
Posts: 39 |
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I've heard from some Akiba-kei in Japan that the seeds of moe was planted with Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon and moe came to fruition with CCS. It isn't just mahou shoujo that did it, it's mahou shoujo with crossover appeal/shounen and or tokusatsu elements. Case in point: PreCure. |
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Mevious
Posts: 78 |
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Great column again, girls. I'm curious, though: do you guys actaully read the post-column discussions?
I thought MorwenLaicoriel had a good point with her post. It sadly went ignored, and I'd like to hear some thoughts on it. Also, Boys' Love is unequal. Strangely, most BL relationships have a more weak-willed, ignorant, "feminine" member, and a tougher, less compromising, "masculine" member. It's something that's always puzzled me about the genre. I enjoy anime with moe artwork alot because most of it is adorable. If moe is its own genre, my favorites would be Strawberry Marshmallow and Lucky Star, each for their comedy. Only in sad anime with moe characters, like Kanon, have I ever felt like I wanted to protect them or whatever. Otherwise, moe, to me, is just watching adorable characters mess around.
That's what I heard. |
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I certainly apologize if any of my comments seemed to imply that. I've seen my share of moe-heavy series and it I'll agree that there is absolutely nothing sexual about moe. What I tried to articulate in the column (poorly, I suspect) is that it seems that some sort of loli line is crossed in merchandising (and in fan involvement--ie fanart, fanfic.. but that's a whole different can of worms) than in any of the artwork itself. When you run a google image search for Bisuke-tan, a character consistently referred to as "moe," for instance, and this is the first image to pop up, of course I'm going to raise an eyebrow. Is this now no longer moe? Or are there people who look at that image and still feel only the innocent feelings of moe? I'm actually very curious, as a woman, so feel free to answer. I don't know the equivalent I could compare it to from my point of view, except that when I look at this I feel "Awww" and when I look at this I feel "Oh MY! <3." (And now I've finally found a reason to link to shirtless NPH in a forum discussion. SCORE.) 
Personally, I feel like those personality types aren't so much about fetish as they are simple archetypes. The tsundere thing is endearing because you have a character who's acting tough to hide feelings of tenderness or insecurity on the inside, and that's something a lot of people can relate to. And, replying to the thread in general, the reason the discussion was strictly about moe as it relates to anime instead of puppies and bunnies and kitties... well, as much as I'd love to gush about cute animals for 30 mintues with Bamboo and Casey we have to keep in mind that the column is for an anime website, and as such I feel that it was within our bounds to keep the discussion related to anime and fandom for the majority of the column. Last edited by Cloe on Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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I think Vol. 17 of the manga kinda kills the idea of Sakura being moe. From what I understand, moe characters generally don't spoiler[carry around guns, shooting their enemies dead, and getting extremely slashed up in a bloody manner in a desperate attempt to save the life of an older male character. Sounds the exact opposite of moe, at least by the article's definition.] Or perhaps to be more accurate, maybe Sakura WAS a moe character, but I don't think that's the case by this point in the series. Tsubasa is a series where the later part's tone is DRASTICALLY different from the beginning. spoiler[Plus, I've heard rumors that she may not be as "innocent" as all that. I only read the manga volumes not the scanlations, so I'm not sure, but a buddy of mine hinted she's hiding a HUGE agenda from the rest of the group.] |
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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"I thought MorwenLaicoriel had a good point with her post. " Mevious...
agreed. Perhaps it's just simply a difference gender beyond being two sides of a coin. The easiest way to see this is to simply reverse genders in the Anime or manga or source. How does Negima! work if it's 23+ 14 yr. old boys chasing a 10 year old girl sensei? Sometimes the brother/sister idolatry in shows really shows this oddity, especially when the younger one only looks young. Think Negi in Tenchi GXP... She is doing the little sister thing, but is 2000 years older than Seina. Tenchi himself really the same... the only girl chasing him that's close to his age is Mihoshi. If the roles were reversed, it simply wouldn't work without a squick factor. If you look at the protection thing as a continuum rather than just for the youngest and weakest I think the appearence just shows how the gender roles are. Both genders protect, but differently. It is no less protective to think a sicklyboy needs a hug than an upset young moe girl needs flowers or needs you to take the hit for her. How those feelings develop past the anime/real life divide is a study in extremes, and we see a lot of them, but the derision heaped on guys has much more to do with the assumption that women are not threatening to weaker characters than anything. Women can get away with many things without question that men cannot. Imagine if Yuuko was a man and Wantanuki was a girl [in -holic] how would that change the perception of the whole story? Yuuko IS just this side of sinister as it is, but it is acceptable because she is in some way training this guy for something. If it was a man, it would seem like slavery. That is far afield from moe, really, but I think some of the undercurrents behind such a movement are there... |
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duofangirl
 Posts: 17 |
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I've never heard of moe before I read this article, but I'm so glad you guys discussed it! As I get older (I'm 23 now), I find that boys younger than 18 don't catch my eye in an attractive sense, but in this new "I want to run up and hug them and squeal" sense, like they were a little brother I find adorably cute. Moe exactly represents this feeling!
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Rednal
Posts: 134 |
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@Duofangirl: I'm surprised; the term has generally penetrated the fandom by now, so most people at least know OF moe things. But you seem to have the idea down well.
For me, the most moe girls are, in fact, the ones I want to sleep with. Before you say "Ah, he's one of THEM!", though, I'd like to note that I'm being very literal here, and only using the above wording to mess with your heads a bit. I would literally like to sleep beside certain moe girls. I heard a saying once, that the highest form of love is sleeping with somebody and not worrying about sex. Would I MIND the dirtier definition of sleeping with the girls who are the most moe to me? Probably not. But that's secondary, if it comes up at all. Being a very dedicated fan of manga, with a personal collection crossing nearly every genre except shounen-ai/yaoi and extremely bloody, I can honestly say that I'll read most series I come across. Moe, yes. Mecha, yes. Shounen, shoujo, slice-of-life or epic quest, doesn't really matter. I think the big problem of defining "moe" is that it's different for different people. It's mostly subjective, the way some people think chocolate is better than vanilla. For me, moe is not very applicable to exceptionally young or young-looking girls (which here we'll say is, oh, 4-12 years). Above that, and I'm generally accepting. The high point of moe (for me) would be characters like this: http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/Rednal/171.jpg That's all for now, I suppose. ^^ I need to get going. |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3491 Location: Back stateside |
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I think the biggest problem in this article and in these discussions is that we truly don't seem to have agreed on what "moe" is; people seem to be operating under completely different definitions.
Does it entail sexuality? Does it entail romance? Can it be platonic? Is it a feeling? Is it a character type? Does it just involve the girl being cute? ...or does she also have to be passive? Can it apply to boys? Etc., etc., etc. So long as we're using half a dozen different definitions of moe, the discussion won't really go anywhere! When I tend to think of moe, I do think of the quasi-lolicon, submissive and docile "cute" girl who is somehow nonetheless an object of sexual feelings. I'd distinguish it between girls who might be cute but are also smart and assertive (yes, I'm talking Hagu...I still can't believe Casey thought she was moe, but I think it's different definitions again). It's also something of a "type," much like "tsundere" or "yandere," where a character can me more or less like the "type." And so long as a series presents this kind of moe as the only/main/best kind of female behavior, then it is pretty sexist. But so long as that's not how you define moe, then we could be talking about something else, something I'd find totally non-offensive. So maybe we need to all say what we're talking about before we begin? BL comics are a whole 'nother topic. My biggest problem with them is that of the ones I've seen (admittedly few) they tend not to have many strong female characters, and the fact that they have a large female audience makes me worry about that... I look forward to upcoming columns... and I would absolutely read a "dudes on anime" column! |
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