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Hey, Answerman! [2006-04-21]


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cardcaptormanda



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 237
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:51 pm Reply with quote
Wow. Brilliant post, jamesjmiller. Great points. I won't elaborate more, since I already made several posts in this thread detailing my stance on this, but I agree with everything you said (and I love how you said it).
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jamesjmiller



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:15 pm Reply with quote
cardcaptormanda wrote:
Wow. Brilliant post, jamesjmiller. Great points. I won't elaborate more, since I already made several posts in this thread detailing my stance on this, but I agree with everything you said (and I love how you said it).


Thank you, cardcaptormanda, I'm glad you agree. And I just went back to read through everyone's points and proudly back your opinions as well.

I think if anything came out of this rant, at least for me, it was how utterly wrong his assessment was. Here's everyone acting mature, being social. This is the majority I believe in. The ONLY conceivable place to be annoyed with any anime fan/otaku would be at a convention in my opinion. But that can happen at any and every structured mass event, where other people's opinions are in unavoidable earshot.

And while the majority may mean younger 4Kids fans to some people, I can't help but crack a happy grin when I see the little guys and gals losing touch with reality when they parade through retail anime sections. I say let that particular version of the majority be kids. And I hope like hell I can keep up with them in a few years if I still love anime as much as I do now (I will.)

But I doubt it'll be a problem, because by then us civilised anime fans can learn to toss our collections on our Ipods like they undoubtedly will.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:39 pm Reply with quote
jamesjmiller wrote:

And if anyone knows what characters these kids are idolizing to become lazy and antisocial, please let me know. He didn't.

I actually CAN think of how this would apply to some of the "New Generation" popular animes, but that's beside the point. I think (as I pointed out in my earlier reply) Jason has made two mistakes that, while they don't totally "invalidate" his view make it seem more extreme.
#1, Not all people into anime at present are "fans". As I noted in my previous reply I feel this is true and I think what he sees as the "New Generation" are actually just people latching onto the "fad".
#2, From your reading he's making the "violent video games/tv produce violent kids" argument. I don't think he's pushing that viewpoint QUITE as strongly as you do, but it is an implication made in the rant. The fact is there are some ill-behaved people currently involved in the hobby. I think Jason's POINT was that in the past, these people would have NEEDED to interact with other people (and thus, theoretically work on their social skills) in order to get anime. If you were an @ss, people would treat you like an @ss and you wouldn't get anime. Now, you don't NEED to talk to people to get anime, so if you are an @ss you can just keep right on being an @ss and still collect your stuff.

If I tell you to follow the "anime fan code" and you get half (or more) of your fansubs DIRECTLY from me, you're gonna at LEAST gimme lip-service (or you're an idiot who's gonna get cut off). If you grab your anime from online torrents and other places, if I tell you to follow the "anime fan code" you're just as likely to tell me to screw myself (as people have done on forums like this one) as you are to even give me a TOKEN "yeah, that's for the best". Part of the "civility" he speaks of was born of necessity and a good bit was probably TOTALLY insincere, but it made for a different atmosphere in the fan community.
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jamesjmiller



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:03 pm Reply with quote
Okay, then what characters?

HeeroTX, you are absolutely right in saying there are rude, ill-behaved people in the fan community.

But that can be applied to any scene of anything. And Jason's word prove that.

People into anime are fans. And people that like it as a fad may be part of a generation, but only briefly. That MAY be what he sees, but it still holds no particular relevence on their behavior or how they enjoy anime.

He isn't making a "violent video games/tv produce violent kids" argument from my reading. With that part of his rant, he isn't making much of a thoughtful point at all.

No one, let alone a mass of people should be suspected of any behavioral trends or questionable/illegal actions based on demographic, age, or accessibility.

But there is one thing important to consider. In the "old days" people did have to interect and swap anime. And now they don't. But that's exactly it. In the "new days" it is less needed to swap with one another, so it is less needed to deal with "ugly" people in the first place.

That being said, I'd argue that people COULD be far more kind to one another, and even more enthusuastic and well mannered, gauged by new reasons for interaction. Because as the need for others to obtain anime dwindles, the reasons for interacting change from "to get and share anime to open dialogue about what can and should be seen among one's peers.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:16 pm Reply with quote
jamesjmiller wrote:
Okay, then what characters?

Because I'm in a wacky mood, I'll play along. Having made a quick peek into the "top 10 anime" thread I'll use a few samples of what shows people LIKE as examples, I'm also going to point out 2 things first though. First off, I'm not say ALL anime fit the profile and secondly I haven't seen all the anime that people list as favorites, so I'm culling examples from those lists that I HAVE seen:

-Samurai Champloo: With the POSSIBLE exception of Fuu, the primaries are lazy certainly. They are SKILLEd yes, but they are also very lazy. The primaries are also clearly anti-social. Mugen often instigates arguements or otherwise is belligerent to people he meets and Jin often tries to avoid conversations or discussions with people.

-Evangelion: Lazy is debatable and the anime doesn't really view situations where it would be witnessed but this "anthem of the New Generation anime fans" is BUILT around the social problems of the lead character.

-Serial Experiment Lain: I grant I haven't seen it all, I wasn't a fan (wasn't a fan of most of these) but the lead comes across as very anti-social. (but I'll defer if someone is more knowledgeable about the show)

-Hellsing: again, "lazy" is debatable, but antisocial is a central feature of the characters (as with many "vampire" motif shows, its part of the allure to MOST (not all) fans of the genre)

-Noir: Two extremely anti-social (one nearly robotic) female assassins.

-Naruto: Actually much more upbeat than the others, but a core issue is how "alone" Naruto (and other characters) is. Several popular characters (Shikamaru, Kakashi, Sasuke, Gaara) are lazy or anti-social or both.
Quote:

People into anime are fans. And people that like it as a fad may be part of a generation, but only briefly. That MAY be what he sees, but it still holds no particular relevence on their behavior or how they enjoy anime.

I know many people who "watch" anime and go to anime cons and will expressly SAY that they are not anime fans. If you ask me why they watch I will say I DON'T KNOW. But I guess it depends what you mean by "into" anime.

Quote:

But there is one thing important to consider. In the "old days" people did have to interect and swap anime. And now they don't. But that's exactly it. In the "new days" it is less needed to swap with one another, so it is less needed to deal with "ugly" people in the first place.

Which I'd say is part of the PROBLEM. People don't need to ever see each other in RL, so they can feel free to act like jerks behind the anonymity of the computer screen. I'm sorry, but when the license holding company EXPRESSLY asks that fansubs on its title be stopped and the fansub group EXPRESSLY sass talks the company, that reflects BADLY on the "New Generation". Maybe the "old generation" would have done the same and just didn't have the forum but history says otherwise.
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cardcaptormanda



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:44 pm Reply with quote
HeeroTX wrote:

Because I'm in a wacky mood, I'll play along.


Seriously, the whole “anime characters are a bad influence” thing was a moot point to begin with, so why bother elaborating? In the first place, I think the fans that actually idolize anime characters are in the minority.

Secondly, there have always been jerks and anti-socials. Two thousand years ago, was it anime’s fault? I don’t think it was. And today, are there no people with personality problems outside the fandom? No. It’s not anime now, it never has been, and most likely never will be. I’m sure if we all sat and thought, we could easily come up with 10,000 anime characters that could be seen as a bad influence, but I think we could come up with just as many movie, book, or video game characters as well (or real people, for that matter). But hey, just for a moment, let's say that, hypothetically, people are being influenced by anime characters. Anime easily features as many characters with positive personality traits as negative. If anime characters influence fans, one could argue that there should be at least an equal number of fans being positively influenced.

Regardless, I completely don’t buy into this entire “the reason kids these days are like they are is because of INSERT TYPE OF MEDIA HERE” theory. People are the way they are because it’s just the nature of people to be that way. The times change, but the core points of human nature remain the same. To say that anime itself has anything to do with the behavior of its fans (outside of things that are directly anime related) is ludicrous.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:25 pm Reply with quote
cardcaptormanda wrote:

Seriously, the whole “anime characters are a bad influence” thing was a moot point to begin with, so why bother elaborating? In the first place, I think the fans that actually idolize anime characters are in the minority.

I elaborated because jamesjmiller EXPRESSLY asked me to, and I think he did so because he disbelieved that I could actually do so. Whether or not Jason was making blanket statements with no intent to back them up, I fully considered the question before commenting. As for whether or not the characters/show influence people in that way, I never said I think they have such an effect, I was trying to clarify the position and prove that examples COULD be found if one was trying to make the arguement. It is MY opinion that Jason's major problem lies with people who are NOT anime fans and he has culled extreme examples of that set to make his point, but from what I gather, jamesjmiller disagrees with that viewpoint, but... *shrug*
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tlsmith1963



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 100
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:28 pm Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:
Jason, I like the cut of your jib. You also win because you touch upon one of my favorite points: "There is no substitute for good parenting."

I will admit that I was brought in as part of the Pokémon generation (even though I was in 7th grade at the time) so I've had some time to watch the otaku culture emerge. It might be because I'm old and jaded, but I concur that what this latest group to be a little hard to swallow. Granted some adults aren't much better, but still.

Man I could go on for hours about this. No time though.


Jason obviously doesn't know about the Science Fiction scene. It can be just as bad, although not everyone in the scene is a jerk. When I first got into Babylon 5 I went online to discuss the series with fans. I thought it would be a fun experience, & it was to a certain extent. But there were some real jerks who would try to ruin it for everyone. And don't even try to go to the rec.arts.sf newsgroup. It's full of cynical people with a superiority complex. They love to attack people. So the anime scene isn't the only one with annoying people, although, like with the SF scene, not everyone is annoying! Smile

Tammy
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:41 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Right, the problem is, everyone saying "well I don't see how sex and violence are an issue..." is basing that on pure speculation.


I don't have access to industry insiders and sales numbers, so speculation is all I can really do. Sorry.

Quote:
Berserk is basically a boutique title; you can't get it in a lot of major bookstores because it's been yanked thanks to the excessive violence and nudity.


Really? The two biggest chains I know of (Borders and Barnes & Noble) both carry it. I've never had trouble finding it at regular bookstores. And they also carry Battle Royale which is far worse than what has been in Berserk so far.

Quote:
It hits once every three months and isn't exactly burning up the charts; calling Berserk a 'popular' title is kind of a misnomer. It has its fans and it sells just well enough to keep coming out but that's basically it.


I suspect a majority of manga only sell enought to just 'keep coming out.' While the manga market seems to have exploded, most titles aren't going to make a huge profit. I'm not suggesting that Gantz is going to be some hit title like Fruits Basket or Rurouni Kenshin, but I am think (yes, purely speculation from my limited knowledge) that it would sell well enough to at least be worth releasing.

Like Gatsu (I think) said before, not everything can be a top seller.


Quote:
Golgo 13 isn't one tenth as violent or sexual as Gantz is. I have all.. what, 15 or so volumes of the Gantz manga and it's overloaded with extremely graphic deaths and too many sex scenes to count. Hell, the chapter stop splash pages are racier than anything you'd see in Golgo 13. The best comparison is Berserk, and from what I understand - from what many manga company employees have told me - is that more than a few publishers took a look at Berserk's numbers and decided that taking a financial risk with extremely gory or sex-filled manga (that you may not even be able to get on the shelves in the first place) might not really be worth it in the long run. Plus, Gantz is a fairly expensive license; obviously the price might not warrant the potential sales in the US, based on existing data.


I'm sorry I wasn't very clear on my comments on Monster, Golgo 13, and the Signature line. I didn't think Golgo 13 was anywhere near as bad as GANTZ nor did I mean to imply that it was. My point was that the Signature line seems to be targeted at adults and that Viz already has one shrinkwrapped title. I mention the shrinkwrap because that in and of itself would likely reduce sales as it reduces the number of people who will flip through it and decide to buy it. Which is, according to some speculation, why CMX decided to severely edit Tenjho Tenge.

I don't know how much the Gantz license would cost in comparison to other similar titles, but that could certainly be a factor in why it hasn't been licensed yet.

Quote:
Again, you have to look at the market. While it's true that Gantz has a sho at being picked up here, the market conditions right now aren't really in its favor. I wouldn't be shocked if someone like Dark Horse licensed the title this year sometime, but again, I wouldn't hold my breath either.


I agree with this. It is true that market conditions are not particularly favorable, but I don't think it has that much less of a chance of getting picked up than most series. I think Dark Horse seems like the most likely company to acquire Gantz (aside from Viz, as I think Gantz was published by their affiliated publisher) as they already have a lot of adult titles and are releasing Berserk.


Last edited by HitokiriShadow on Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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darkhunter



Joined: 13 May 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:53 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
I think Dark Horse seems like the most likely company to acquire Gantz (aside from Viz, as I think Gantz was published by their affiliated publisher) as they already have a lot of adult titles and are releasing Berserk.


Read my post earlier on why dark horse isn't gonna pick up Gantz.
I seen the comment about DH picking up gantz being mention a lot, but I doubt DH is going after violent and sexual title because of berserk.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:23 pm Reply with quote
Heero:
Quote:
(Also depends on WHICH particular harem titles, with how well "Love Hina" did, I find no shock in "Negima" being a no-brainer for licensing)


Outside of titles like Negima, most harem manga are so crappy, people can't tell them apart. Del Rey might have some strong licenses, but they're just as guilty with flooding as the other companies.

dark:
Quote:
About gantz topic, one thing I think Viz is not going to take a chance with Gantz is because of the excessive violent and sex. Viz might have done so in the past with title like Dance Till Tomorrow or Bakune Young, but that was back then when you can find these title in comic book store only.


I think the reason they did that in the past is they didn't have many hits until Pokemon. They needed to attract as many readers as they could in the past. Now I think the reason they're releasing titles like Golgo and Monster is they're trying to avoid diluting the market with knock-offs. They want brands that separate them from the pack.

Quote:
But a title with such excessive violence and sex would also mean more risk--backlash from parents/community, not being sold in bookstore, more marketing and so on. Are the risk worth the sale to Viz.


It's not any more "controversial" than Angel Sanctuary, God Child or She: The Ultimate Weapon...

Hitokiri:
Quote:
I suspect a majority of manga only sell enought to just 'keep coming out.' While the manga market seems to have exploded, most titles aren't going to make a huge profit.


Even Yu Gi Oh got pushed back to bi-monthly from its monthly release.

Quote:
I mention the shrinkwrap because that in and of itself would likely reduce sales as it reduces the number of people who will flip through it and decide to buy it. Which is, according to some speculation, why CMX decided to severely edit Tenjho Tenge.


CMX screwed with Tenjho Tenge, because they thought they could make a seinen title crossover with shojo readers. I'd say the closest that's going to happen is with Bleach and Recca.

darkhunter:
Quote:
Read my post earlier on why dark horse isn't gonna pick up Gantz. I seen the comment about DH picking up gantz being mention a lot, but I doubt DH is going after violent and sexual title because of berserk.


They just re-released Crying Freeman...
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darkhunter



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:30 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

They just re-released Crying Freeman...


That's beause of Dark Horse LOVES Koike and they have a close relationship. Why do you think they're also releasing Path of the Assassin and Lady Snowblood as well?

DH license a lot of seinen manga with violence but gantz was one of the title that Carl Horn didn't seem like he was interested in licensing.


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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:32 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

Quote:
I mention the shrinkwrap because that in and of itself would likely reduce sales as it reduces the number of people who will flip through it and decide to buy it. Which is, according to some speculation, why CMX decided to severely edit Tenjho Tenge.


CMX screwed with Tenjho Tenge, because they thought they could make a seinen title crossover with shojo readers. I'd say the closest that's going to happen is with Bleach and Recca.


What happened with Bleach and Recca? I haven't noticed any problems with either series.

Edit: \/ Ah, okay. My mistake.


Last edited by HitokiriShadow on Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GATSU



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:22 pm Reply with quote
darkhunter:
Quote:
That's beause of Dark Horse LOVES Koike and they have a close relationship. Why do you think they're also releasing Path of the Assassin and Lady Snowblood as well?


They love a lot of titles, but that doesn't mean they're willing to support all of them.

Quote:
DH license a lot of seinen manga with violence but gantz was one of the title that Carl Horn didn't seem like he was interested in licensing.


I respect Carl, but DH needs to do a better job of tapping into the 18-25 demo. They seem more fixated on the comic book geek crowd(no offense) than they do on the readers who are interested in more brand-name titles. Not that Trigun, GITS, and Hellsing aren't brand-name titles, but they're more action-oriented than character-oriented.

Hitokiri: No problems. I'm just saying that they have more appeal to girls than Tenjho Tenge.
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scortia



Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 174
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:14 pm Reply with quote
Kudos to Jason!

I was considering a similar topic for my rant... Ah yes, I remember in the 90s... being the only kid in school into anime and trying desperately to get friends into this odd thing known as "Japanimation". (oh wait, I hated the term back then as well)

Cons in the late nineties through 2000-2001 or so were still quite enjoyable... most congoers watched anime through VHS fansubs since anime on tv and through commercial releases were very minimal... so most otaku were more thoughtful and older and put effort into their hobby... ah, fansub trading, those were the days.

Now, it's available to more kids who don't have to care about even trying for the fandom. They can just squeal about how cute Inu Yasha is and that's all that matters. Intelligent discussion?.. pshaw, not important. Cons become WORSE and WORSE too.. hell, the stupid young otaku attending Ushicon this year and tearing up the hotel like total idiots is probably a major reason why that con is not going to happen anymore. Also add the stupid teen girls who feel the need to scream "YAOI!" at every cosplay masquerade with at least 2 male characters involved.

As with everything, add people to the mix, and the deteriorating IQ in the group mindset brings everything down.
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