Forum - View topicCode Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (TV) - dub.
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BellosTheMighty
 Posts: 767 |
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It was a good ending, all things considered. It was true to the characters and their relationships. But I have to say, it was tacked onto a pretty bad episode, with lots of incompetently-written philosophizing substituting for grandeur and depth. There were bright points, sure- Jeremiah was truly awesome. Nunally was quietly awesome, despite being given some truly repulsive dialogue. (She was also hot. When did that happen?) Kallen and Suzaku were NOT awesome. Their fight was okay, but the inter-battle banter only served to illustrate how much depth they'd lost as characters over the course of R2.
Actually, to be honest, the entire series lost depth over the course of R2. Maybe I'd better do a proper post-mortem here... Code Geass took a while to really grab me. Lelouche initially seemed like a cut-rate Light Yagami, and it took a few episodes for the show's strengths to come to the fore. When they did, however, what they showed was a different kind of mecha series. Actually, the mecha were really not the focus at all. The focus was on military tactics and character drama. The series got some mileage out of positioning Lelouche as an individual succeeding through intellect. He wasn't, and never was, an ace pilot, but he was responsible for every major success the rebellion against Brittannia had. By the end of season one, it had evolved into a first-rate story of war, generals, heroes and anti-heroes. But then R2 premiered. Now, I won't pretend that R1 was immaculate- there were cracks in the series very early on. The school sequences contributed nothing to the series but some out-of-place comedy, and became more and more absurd as time went on. C2's fanservicey antics were distracting. And near the end the introduction of Lelouche's game-breaking Uber-mech and the Siegfried twisted the series more in the direction of traditional super-robot stuff. But in a move that baffles the imagination, R2 proceeded to focus on exactly these aspects and throw out what made the first season unique and compelling. It's common knowledge that there was some behind-the-scenes drama guiding the second season. I don't really know the details, but whoever was ultimately in control of CG completely mistook its strengths. Had they just resolved the cliffhanger from the first season and stayed the course from there, things would have been fine. Instead, they opted for a reboot that took the story in a completely different direction, and everything suffered. They cranked everything to 11, then past it to the point where it became comically overblown. They pandered to the audience, and not just in terms of fanservice. They also tried to put Lelouche in a kind of harem situation, whereas before he had been treated as more or less uninterested in romance. Lelouche became functionally invincible- in the first season, he scored major victories, but also major losses that he had to scramble to recover from. In the second, no major blow is ever struck to him that he doesn't reverse almost immediately. And they catered to the mecha fans by constantly introducing more mechs, to the point where it transformed from a military drama that just happened to involve mechs into a half-assed super robot anime. In fact, now that I think of it, I think the root cause of the problem is that they wanted to turn Code Geass into Gurren Laggan- which is a good series, but also a completely and totally different one. Another way they tripped up is in the expanding cast. They constantly introduced new characters, and re-introduced at least one who was already dead and gone, and the narrative didn't have room for them all. So they pushed the ones they couldn't deal with to the back burner. Gino was introduced and became irrelevant almost immediately. Kallen spent half the series as a glorified fanservice girl and the other half as a P.O.W.. Todo did nothing of real relevence up until episode 20 or so. And characters were killed off, only to have people forget they existed almost immediately. spoiler[Shirley, Rolo, and V2 are the most obvious victims.] Compare this to the first season, where spoiler[Euphemia's shocking death] drives the conflict for the rest of the season. The series I liked was still in there- the Chinese arc was as good as season one's campaigns, and the core characters- Lelouche, Suzaku, CC, and Nunnally- retain most of their character, despite occasional spates of bad writing. But it was buried under a pile of garbage that I normally wouldn't touch. Code Geass is a story with a lot of potential and a lot of problems, and in the end the problems won out. I'd still say it's worth watching overall, but I almost wish they had scuttled the series after the first season. Yes, even though it would have meant leaving us on an unresolved cliffhanger. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I don't agree that the series would have better off left with a cliffhanger at the end of season one, but otherwise I mostly agree with BellosTheMighty's sentiments, especially about the second season seeming to dedicate itself more to pandering to various interest groups than actually continuing the story properly. (Though I can't honestly object to the increased fan service - Kallen in the bunny suit was hot!) The reboot was clumsily-handled, too much in the second season was forced, and they essentially wasted certain characters. I could have also entirely done without Rolo or Gino's expanded role.
That being said, I thought it came together well enough in the end that I'd recommend it with a few caveats. I do also wonder, though, when, exactly, Lelouch settled on his ultimate scheme. I get the distinct impression that he wasn't thinking along those lines from the very beginning. Did spoiler[his role in causing Euphemia's death] turn him in that direction, or was that a revision of his purpose beginning with season 2? |
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nightjuan
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Leaving aside commenting on every statement, for I both agree and disagree with a lot of what BellosTheMighty has written, particularly about certain characters, this is really the key point behind all the other issues:
That's why I've mentioned the gist of what happened: the first season was a successful late night show and then the second was moved to prime time, resulting in many changes from the initial plans. That's why there was a reboot and the staff has always made this clear in interviews and other publications. More than trying to be like Gurren Lagann, I'd say that Sunrise and Bandai wanted to make the show as appealing as possible to the Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny audience, in order to make it even more commercially profitable (in short, in order to milk it), and that's probably why the amount of blatant pandering increased. At the same time, you had the creative team trying to tell the actual story but serving two masters is often quite difficult, especially with only 25 episodes left. With more time, maybe the results would have been better (or the pacing would).
It's true that spoiler[Euphemia's] remained the single most important of those...but I'd say that spoiler[Shirley's death] was actually worthwhile in the sense it sent Lelouch even deeper into a depression from which there was no easy way out, it brought him once again into open conflict with Suzaku and represented the loss of any happy future waiting for him back at Ashford. I wouldn't say he forgot, not at all.
It's funny you would say this, because the China arc isn't among my favorites. In fact, I actually prefer the Second Battle of Tokyo mini-arc and, to some extent, even the final battle.
I'd say the specific details of Lelouch's final scheme only emerged towards the end of the second season...but by the end of the first, his outlook did seem to be increasingly grim. He was preparing himself to embrace further amounts of self-sacrifice, as long as his efforts served a purpose. But until much later, I still had the feeling that he expected to come back to Ashford at the end of the road, if at all possible, at least as a vague ideal. If anything, I think that's one element that can be derived from the school-related sequences in both seasons and, by shattering those expectations, events in R2 pushed him towards his final decision. |
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Charred Knight
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Now while I understand that their was problems back stage, their was so much inept writing that frankly it's inexcusable.
Take for instance Britannia, the proper way to make the evil empire seem human is to present the common man as a good person who is simply ordered to do horrible scenes. FMA does this incredibly well, and Final Fantasty IV manages to do this in the very first scene. Code Geass does the opposite, the people who are in power are always talking about how horrible war is, but they continue to be evil fascist for idiotic reasons. I mean why the hell is Bismarck supporting Charles? It's like if someone did something based off of the Nanking massacre and Prince Asaka is protrayed as a great guy. Meanwhile the common man is never given any characterization other than evil racist. Which reminds me about how badly racism is handled in Code Geass. I could understand someone all of a sidden stop being racist like one time, but it's constantly shown people who pretty much are basically Adolf Hitler, all of a sudden stop hating people. I mean if racism was that easy to get rid of than it wouldn't exist anymore. Why is Nina not a racist anymore, I mean sure she spoiler[ killed 10 million people] but those where all Britannians, why the hell did she stop hating the Japanese? Same with Cornelia, and pretty much all of spoiler[Britannia]. One minute they hate the Japanese, and are willing to kill them all, the next they respect the Japanese and want to hang out with them. It's also kind of impossible to take Lelouch's relationship with Nunnaly seriously, when it went past brotherly love, and straight into incest level's of attraction. "NUNNALY!" Really the only excuse I accept is the rushed nature, and even then Code Geass R2 felt like a 52 episode anime, they needed to show the gradual change of people instead of Cornelia being a good person out of nowhere. The ending itself makes no sense, I mean is it just me or did it seem like Lelouch, Schneziel, and Nunnaly had the exact same plan but with themselves as spoiler[ the villain.]] I mean they couldn't talk this out, but instead had to pretty much just blow up both armies, and take away the one thing that could have saved Japan. Now that's not to say that Code Geass R2 is complete crap, it's not DearS or Eiken. The animation is nice, the music is great, but its not enough to cover all the flaws. I can honestly only give Code Geass R2 a 4.10, which is a shamed because the first season was an 8/10. They had the talent, and they had the budget. What went wrong?[/spoiler] |
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NGE1113
 Posts: 1081 Location: Alexandria, VA. |
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So, that's it; 50+ weeks gone by. What to say, what to say?
It was a while ago, but while crawling through the WWW, I managed to spoil myself on Lelouch's fate. Still, as I take credence in the mantra that "the journey is more important than the destination" (or in this case, the end). If asked if it was worth the wait, I can only reply with, "Somewhat." It was a fun little diversion as action series come, with some highs, some lows, and a good deal of plateaus in-between. As for the run-up to that last scene, it shocked me a little bit, but also struck me as the only sensible course of events that could occur. Comparing the two seasons against each other, I end up with one-word descriptions for each: 1st - tact, and 2nd - one-upmanship. I enjoyed how the first season played out as a battle of intelligence, instead of strict military might. To a lesser extent, I also enjoyed R2, but was more amused (if not a bit dismayed) with how it evolved into a mech opera by the end. A couple of quick thoughts: Many, many episodes ago, Xing-ke's female comrade-in-arms brought up the fact that he didn't have much time left. Looks like Sunrise didn't have enough time to wrap up this plot point. Jeremiah's ultimate destiny to end up down on the farm was priceless. I had a good laugh at that.
I would say that Lelouch and Nunnally did try to act out plans that were spoiler[virtually identical]. When Lelouch discovered this, that's when he got the impetus to spoiler[Geass] Nunnally, so that she spoiler[wouldn't be able to carry out her own plan]. As for Schneizel, from the way he talked about the Damocles, it feels like he intended for the Damocles to be the spoiler[target of hatred from humans the world over], not himself. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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There seems to be two schools of thought about guys like Xingke, who are seemingly eternally sick: either they will die at any random moment or they'll only die whenever it's convenient. The question would then be...wouldn't it have been too predictable for him to die exactly on time?
Maybe it's just me, but that he won't live long doesn't mean we have to see him die during the course of the series (unless he died off-screen in the end, but that's unclear). I think that's even slightly subverting the cliche. He could die in months or in a couple of years and still live a lot less than someone his age normally would.
I believe we've had this discussion ever since the Japanese broadcast and there isn't much to add to it, or is there? Really? I do think that example is a bit out of place and tends to ignore all the differences in context. The most important one being that this is a cartoon and not real life, the implications don't have to be the same because the circumstances aren't.
Nina feared the Japanese more than actually hating them, if you go back to the beginning of the show, and it was only her desire to take revenge on Zero that fueled her vendetta into weapons development. I'd think that being responsible for so much destruction would show her that, maybe, this really isn't the way? I don't think it would have been better for her to blink and do nothing. It's not that she now loves the Japanese or anything, I'd say she may still have her fears but just doesn't see a point in blindly seeking revenge anymore. Finally, bringing Adolf Hitler into this... 
Again, I think you're assuming too much from just a limited number of scenes and being too hasty. Both in terms of what these people might think and what they might not, I don't believe the change has to be as radical as you're interpreted it. Mainly because finding a less extreme explanation is possible, given what little information we have.
I'd say it felt more like the season needed 30-something episodes, but the point is valid. As for Cornelia, she didn't seem to care too much about crushing the Japanese (which was part of her responsibilities within the system) or anything to that effect after what happened to her own sister at the hands of Zero (who she knew was one of her brothers). I don't think that meant she came to love them, but that wasn't her priority anymore. She even left her own obligations behind in order to find out about Geass and we don't get much of a glimpse into her mind other than becoming dissatisfied with war (after beingspoiler[shot by her own brother due to questioning his plan], mind you).
Once again, R2 gets a C+ from me, which is a somewhat higher score than yours (around 6-7/10), and the first season gets a B+. A relative disappointment, but I'm satisfied with the show overall. And I can only roll my eyes, since you know that's merely a rhetorical question at this point (and maybe even inaccurate, unless you have seen the numbers yourself). |
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taster of pork
 Posts: 594 Location: My House |
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I'm not a very picky guy. The series did have some little things that I didn't like, specifically the School life and fanservice. But it didn't stop me from enjoying the show. My only real issue with the ending was I think the show could have used a few more episodes to get everything out. But overall, I liked the ending.
Last edited by taster of pork on Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I have the same problems with Code Geass. I didn’t like the excessive fanservice, which almost overstep the boundaries of good taste, and the shift of focus from a battle of intelligence to mecha.
I thought whether I would have watched it, had it not been named Code Geass and I believe I would not. I struggled to bear with the absurdity of the plot because I like the first season. In the second part I tried to make as much fun of the second season as possible, since it seemed to be the only way to enjoy it and I admit that some scenes were truly priceless, for instance: when spoiler[Lelouche was killed with a pink sword.] However, it was not good enough for CGR2 to get as good a score as the first season, so even if this is a forlorn hope, I hope Sunrise will make a remake of the second season or something similar in atmosphere to the first season. If they are going to dumb down Code Geass to Gundam’s level then I shall say goodbye to Code Geass. I’m not a fan of Gundam. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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It ended pretty much how I assumed it would ever since Leclouche took over Britainia. It seemed like the only logical endgame for that strategy that was consistant with his ideals. spoiler[He wasn't willing to dominate the world into peace, but he was willing to dominate portions of them into achiving peace for themselves.]
I don't believe that the "Zero Requiem" was his master plan at any point before his final confrontation with Charles and all that. I think it was a last minute shift in tactics that was necessitated by all else going to hell in a handbasket, the Black Knights abandoning him, he really had few resources left to play at that point. I believe that until the last half-dozen episodes or so, his endgame was much more straight-forward. It probably just involved him taking out Charles as the head of the snake, and then with him out of the way, direct millitary conquest of Britainia and the establishment of a peaceful global organization would have been well within his power. He wasn't aware of the Damocles, and he had the largest and most powerful millitary forces in the world on his side at the time so it would be a reasonable plan for someone of his tactical and strategic genius. The arguement could also be made that the "death" of Nunnally was the turning point, but I doubt it was before that.
Ehem. . . bear in mind, the entire basis of this series is an allegory of WWII, with Britainia playing the role of the Japanese and Area 11 playing the role of, well, everybody not Japanese. Like in the show, after the US kicked their butts in WWII, the Japanese got very pro-America all of a sudden. It happens. Overall though, I really enjoyed Code Geass. I think it told an interesting story, had an engaging narative style, and fun graphics. Maybe it was too "mecha show" for some of the snobbier anime fans, but I like mecha shows so it didn't bother me any. Btw, exit question, spoiler[is Lelouche actually dead? That wasn't my impression. The impression that I got was that he'd gained CC's code, making him immortal and her mortal again, so that he appeared dead only long enough for the act to work, and that it was him that was driving the cart CC was riding in. ] |
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NGE1113
Posts: 1081 Location: Alexandria, VA. |
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I was just waiting for this question to pop up. BTW, I would pin my money on Lelouch spoiler[having Charles' code, not C.C.'s.] I really think the case for Lelouch somehow spoiler[being alive when all's said and done] is a valid one. The only problem is that it's supported by evidence that's more marginal than anything else: * A few episodes ago, Lelouch spoiler[killed] Charles. From past episodes, it's known that someone with a Geass spoiler[advanced enough is able to kill someone with a Code, with the killer inheriting the Code in the process.] * It could be said that one needs to spoiler[die] before a spoiler[Code] will activate. Pointing back to Lelouch's first meeting with Charles in the other dimension, Lelouch was able to spoiler[Geass Charles into making him commit suicide. Then Charles' newly-inherited Code kicks in, making him immortal and immune to Geass.] * During the final run of events, C.C. spoiler[prays in anguish over the fate Lelouch is to suffer for going this far. Keep in mind that for C.C., death would be a blessing, and immortality a curse.] Countering the above points, of course, is the fact that we visible see spoiler[Lelouch take a sword to the chest], a fact that requires no conjecture at all. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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That is indeed the million dollar question...I subscribe to the polar opposite viewpoint, for reasons that have been discussed to hell and back elsewhere on the forum and on the web, but it's alright if others want to believe in the alternative as long as there's a degree of mutual tolerance.
I've linked to this before, but it still sums up many of the issues myself and others have with the more popular theory. Basically, it relies on too many assumptions, several of which are either contradicted by facts or at least by other possible explanations. Still, nobody has the last word on any of this and Sunrise can always change their own minds. Or go around the entire issue and make a completely new Code Geass spin-off, like the Gundam franchise usually tends to do, which means this debate could go on forever. 
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daedelus
 Posts: 743 Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05) |
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Well, I read something on ANN a few months back that said Sunrise was thinking of making Geass a franchise like Gundam with spin-offs and such. Seeing as how popular it's been, a spin-off doesn't seem impossible.
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15516 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I just finished watching the show, I had been thinking for quite some while that Lelouche was acting like a douche and even making other belive he was a larger one. It felt like so many things were just pointless, like from the begining Suzaku trying to defend the Britania that masacured innocent cyvilians, and everyone treating Lelouche evil cause he killed a man who had no thought of others lives who hapend to be his brother (Clovis). And the fact Lelouche didn't even care whether what he said would make others hate him, it seemed like so many flips of the original Lelouche who worked hard on the image of Zero. Especialy taking full responsibility of spoiler[Euphimia trying to kill all 11's], and then him turning into what he hated all along. Though in the end it felt like it made sense, and I even noticed some clues such as spoiler[how Lelouche identified Nunnally as having same mindset] and a bit back to when he spoiler[said that one must be willing to lay down there own life.] What looked at first to be a Light/Kira death instead turned out to be something with much more meaning, for me it turned the meaningless into meaning as the meanningless worked out exactly as planned. And in the end everyone was not hating each other, instead spoiler[they were hating him, and for peace to come he was willing to sacrifice his life and how he would be remembered.] And if that is not a true hero what is, much more meaningfull spoiler[death] thena certain other Sunrise hero whos final words were "bang", so what if Lelouche spoiler[loved his sisters] shouldnt this series taught that you should think beyond what might be social norm in your culture. I liked this a lot, maybe 8.5, I am not a big mecha fan, but this show made me think, though C2 felt unfinished.
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I cannot speak for others, but the fact I don’t like mecha is not snobbery. Some people don’t like moe, others don’t like yoai. I just happen to dislike mecha.
Yeah, I like this theory too. I’m not a fan of bringing characters back to life, but this explanation makes sense and quite frankly I would rather believe that Nunnally was able to see Lelouch’s memory because he acquired code than accept Sunrise’s retarded justification for it.
Honestly, I couldn’t care less if this created a plot hole only in the second season, but it creates a plot hole in the first season, which I like much more. Nunnally and Lelouch touch each other’s hands in the first season. I have found a snapshot from the 21st episode of the first season It means that Nunnally should have known that Lelouch = Zero back then. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I don't suppose this will change your point of view, which is alright, but I feel like addressing it. That's not the only way to look at it. If you take "see through the hearts of people" figuratively, since the meaning of that expression is rather vague and thus flexible, which also goes for the image montage in question, what she realized was that he still was a good-hearted person even after playing the role of a hated villain for the past several months. Then why would a good-hearted person want to go through all that and even spoiler[die smiling]? Well, it just so happens that Nunnally herself had the same idea in mind, as explained earlier in the episode: to gather all hatred in order to allow people to move forward. When Lelouch realized that they had the same idea he immediately cast away his doubts. You could simply argue that this later happened the other way around, only with a different kind of catalyst. A fairly big deal was made of Nunnally using hands to "read" people earlier during the second season too, even if there was no proper exposition about it. Nor did we get to see any images representing what she could sense. When Nunnally touched Lelouch's hand during the first season she had little to no context from which to deduce that he was Zero, she was at her most naive and never asked him anything about that, so "reading" him wouldn't seem to make a difference at the time, other than sensing he was a good but conflicted person at heart. The alternative isn't exactly pristine in terms of consistency either. That image montage looks nothing like those memory flashes which actually involved C.C. or V.V. during previous occasions, so assuming that they are suddenly meant to be one and the same seems to be an optional interpretation that dismisses this difference. |
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