Forum - View topicCNN article on the decline of the anime industry in Japan.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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Visiting anime forums and quoting what random people say there as some sort of actual proof is really weak. Because we should all trust all the raving fanboys/fangirls of any topic on the internet. Right. I think keonyn hit the nail on the head in terms of if you can't objectively take a step back and see how normal people who are not into anime might see moe shows as creepy then your are simply delusional and have your head planted in the sand among other places. It's not even a matter if a show IS creepy or not, it's the fact of could it LOOK that way to the average person who knows nothing about anime. The answer is a resounding yes. Especially in conservative America. I don't think moe is the #1 reason why anime has declined but I'd put it at #2 or #3 for sure. Take out the creepiness factor and it's still a large problem simply because of the over used plot lines. They have 2-3 plots and they re-hash them with different names for characters. I'm sorry but with the vast majority of moe shows the one factor missing is depth. Sure there are exceptions but the majority just are frivolous and lack truly deep plots and characters. That's not a bad thing in itself per se. A show with a light plot that's just fun to watch is ok. The problem is when the market is over saturated with them then that lack of depth becomes a bigger problem. Add in the more creepy and taboo aspects that can pop up and if you still can't see how that's a major influence then you're once again got your head buried in the sand.
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egoist
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's a major flaw in Clannad, Kanon and Air, which will make it nearly impossible to attract new anime fans, and that would be the character design. Don't expect Internet popularity to translate so well into real world popularity. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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It's not that some of us are fooling ourselves, we've come to realize where the issue truly lies. Read the article again and tell me the author didn't separate out the "otaku" from "moe". The "creepy" always gets targeted to the (male) audience who "crave" these types of shows. Show these new people to anime Clannad and they'll laugh and cry. Show them Popotan and they'll scream to their politicians to have anime banned because the show is child pornography. In those "separation" of anime fans, I can't count the number of times those opposed to "lolicon" (underage "moe" characters portrayed in a sexual manner) believe it promotes pedophilia.
Nor is any cartoon not stamped with a Disney logo. If one looks at the demographic and viewer statistics to The Simpsons, Family Guy, and Southpark, I'd bet this market is roughly the same as anime. I'd also speculate the market for these shows would be even smaller if those anime viewers were removed.
While this "moe" stuff may not be the best stuff ever made, it sure does beat the hell out of those old magical girl shows. The "magical girl" saturation pretty much killed anime for me. I couldn't stand watching a show in which half of it was nothing more than the transformation scene. I stopped watching anime during this time because it was all the same to me. I can relate to those who dislike "moe" but sadly, this is anime and it's always been this way. What's "moe" today will be "zombie aliens" tomorrow when a successful series bleeds copycats to milk fans of as much money as can be taken. 10 years from now, "moe" will be treasured as a classic while fans complain about the crappy 3D CGI streamed by their favorite Japanese internet site and wishing they could buy it on this thing called a "DVD". |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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As much as I have a notable dislike for the word 'objective', one can only grant this. Of course, one must admit something similar, albeit to a lesser degree, for numerous mecha titles and other shows exhibiting divisive tropes. Should titles more to the tastes of newcomers become more prolific, then international sales will most probably pick up. This implies some sort of compromise on the part of the studios however; one between serving the reliable ingrained fanbases and keeping the medium open to outsider interests. I shan't attempt to conceive of how such a compromise could be implemented with bipartite success. My partiality renders me unsuitable for it, or at least less suitable than those expressing a neutral opinion of the offending subject matter. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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No, you're fooling yourself by making a distinction that in the end barely matters.
Yes, this is the distinction that barely matters. You want to separate the "icky" moe like Popotan, Moetan, and Kodomo no Jikan from what you would consider "wholesome" moe like Clannad, Kanon, or K-ON!. It doesn't matter. The first group ranges from barely to completely unmarketable in the US and most don't get licensed for US release. The second group does get licensed to some extent, but they don't sell particularly well. For all their massive online appeal, when it comes to fans actually paying for them in the US, those fans creep back into the woodwork. And forget about non-fans getting lured in by these shows. They just do not have any mass market appeal in the US. The character designs for most of them are enough to do them in.
This is a laughable statement. There's no need to speculate. Those 3 franchises alone are worth more than the entire anime market. Do you seriously believe any anime could compete with them?
Traditionally magical girl shows were aimed at young girls. Why were you watching nothing but shows intended for young girls? In two decades of watching anime, I don't recall any point in which most shows were magical girl shows.
The difference is that moe is not a genre. You can put moe characters in any genre of show. And that is what's happened. There will always be fads, but they haven't linked anime's success to relatively small group of hardcore fans the way moe has. It might be successful in the short term, but in the long term it's probably quite detrimental to the market.
No, it'll still be mostly crap, just like the hyper-violent nearly plot free OVAs of the late 80s/early 90s were mostly crap then and mostly crap now. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RebirthedDuelist
 Posts: 80 Location: U.S and in April 2010,Tekkoshocon |
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Is it me or is CNN is only showing the bad parts of anime. Sure, they showed some of the golden stuff such as Gundam and Pokemon and such, but I've read mostly about them complaining about Moe and Lolicon.
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4nBlue
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I see the biggest problem being the price of anime DVD's in Japan. There will be no casual fans with that kind of prices. No one thinks "I kind liked that, maybe I will spend ¥30000 on the DVDs". Only ones who are willing to spend that kind of money are the most fanatic otaku. If I lived in Japan, I wouldn't buy more than few series per year (only Bakemonogatari and Kara no Kyoukai this year), because I could get myself dozen manga or a new game with the price of two episodes of anime.
I'm not saying that a price drop would save the Japanese animation industry or increase their profit, but it would surely increase the amount of people interested in buying their DVD's. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16939 |
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For starters I completely agree that to a lesser degree many other genres of anime could fall into the category of not appealing or seeming creepy/stupid/whatever to outsiders not into anime. Be it mecha shows or any other genre. I mean I love my ecchi shows but I can admit that unless you are a real honest anime fan, and not some casual viewer or newcomer, they can come off as creepy, distasteful, etc. Which is why while I enjoy them I would never want them to take over anime and become the most prolific genre available. If they did then sales would probably decline more and there would be fewer people willing to give anime a chance because all they would see is animated T&A. What a lot of people can't seem to fathom I think is it's not even fully an issue of if a title actually has depth or not. It's largely about perception. The old judging a book by it's cover idea. If that book cover has half naked animated girls, underaged or not, then people are going to make assumptions and assume all of anime is like that. No it's not fair per se but it's how many people operate and that is something companies have to be mindful of. If they continue to cater and pander to the "fans" who constantly cry out for moe and ecchi shows then they are further shooting themselves in the foot because they're driving away more potential customers. You are right that the companies have got to find some sort of compromise and middle ground between creating and marketing shows with broad appeal that can bring in more fans, and shows that cater to the more diehard fans. Seems to me though part of the problem lies with the fact that many fans are NOT willing to compromise themselves even if it means the future health of the anime idustry as a whole. It's rather sad honestly. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I rest my case when it comes to those who are fooling themselves.
Really? By observing titles moving at online retailers, I can't say this statement is accurate, unless you're directing it at those who are tired of "moe" shows.
Worth more? Where do you get such information the rest of us aren't privy to? I'll reserve the right to stick to my speculation until it's proven the three shows can earn more than $2 billion in a single year.
There is no competition because the three shows aren't on the same playing level. Ironic, don't you think, given that Family Guy and South Park's success is driven by what most would find offensive.
No, they were intended for young girls here. Don't forget there were more ways to watch anime than what was broadcast on television. And for the record, I don't discriminate a series because of its intended target. Dragonball was targeted at young boys yet many of us watched it.
I didn't say most shows. It appears your replies are based on what you could watch on television.
True, but think about the reason why it's happening. Many people continually believe anime's core audience must increase to be successful. While some of you don't like the designs, those girls which Sailor Moon targeted, but failed to attract in the long term, love them.
It appears to me it's the current market that's demanding them. A business would be stupid to ignore this demand regardless how saturated the market becomes.
That's your opinion. Many people who missed out on those 80s/90s offerings would like a chance to get them. However, it's people like you and me, who sat through it before, that won't buy them because we know about them. If there were a larger demand for these older series, distributors will cater to them. Oh, but we see this happening now as late 90s and early 2000s series are being re-released. Magic Knight Rayearth remastered, anyone? 
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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The article is far too sensational, skeletal and loose with the facts to really be considered worth much. There's some worthwhile points made, but they're scarce.
That said...
I also see no reason to assume that cute, manipulative melodramas about young girls would actually expand interest in anime; would appeal to the base that's there, sure, but that's it.
What I think might be a solution is to grow past the stigma that anime in general has. The Noitamina time slot is a good way to produce this; ratings are pretty good, as are DVD sales, and they aren't tied into merchandising. If you have more channels that show more individualistic, less by-the-otaku anime productions, then you might actually have it grow. It'll never be the size of the manga industry in Japan, but it can become more substantial. |
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John Casey
 Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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It's funny, but I agree way too much with what that article states...
Not only does this moe era creep the hell out of me, it's annoying to no end. That said, the popularization of the slice-of-life genre is getting to the point where it's intermingling with moe to create something utterly craptastic. It's a shame. Great stuff like Baccano, Geass, and even retro-action anime like Canaan are going to be come things of the past to this nonsense. |
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hissatsu01
Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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You know what's easier than addressing points and offering counter-arguments? Snipping away everything and leaving only out of context snippets. How about explaining how moe shows have mass market appeal outside of Japan, when they don't even have mass market appeal inside Japan. Otaku are their sole audience. That's it. Once again, moe shows that would be considered truly creepy for the most part don't make it to the US. Those that aren't so creepy and do make it to the US don't sell particularly well.
Huge eyed (as in larger even than usual for anime), super cutesy character designs are enough to make sure only hardcore fans will be buying. That is, if those same "fans" aren't refusing to buy because they already saw the "superior" fansubs.
It's hard to get exact yearly figure limited to domestic sales, but for the Simpsons in 2008, merchandising (global) brought in 750 million, ad revenue (domestic) brought in 315 million, DVD sales are harder to come by, though the season 1 set was the highest selling TV series for years - I think it's safe to assume that DVD sales are more than any anime could dream of. As for syndication, I can't find anything other than 1 billion by 2003, can't find a yearly figure. The point is these are giants in animation compared to anime, and you have to compare the combined revenue from dozens if not hundreds of anime shows to even be able to compare. Certainly your claim that anything non-Disney has a tough time is false.
And their revenue comes from where? Ad revenue, heavy syndication, dvd sales, merchandising. Anime has next to nothing of the first two, has high production and/or licensing costs associated with the third, and only competes well in merchandising.
I think I recall there were other ways. Multi-generation copies of VHS raws/fansubs, LD based VHS fansubs, Import/Domestic LDs, Import/Domestic DVDs, Domestic DVDs, Import/Domestic DVDs, digital fansubs, Import/Domestic Blu-rays. Yes, there were a few ways I remember using. None of it has anything to do with the fact that before the advent of late night anime in the mid to late 90s, almost all TV anime was aimed at children, with most adult fare limited to OVAs or movies. And before the creation of otaku aimed magical girl shows like Nanoha in the past few years, almost every magical girl show was aimed at young girls. That doesn't mean they can't be good; I love Kodocha, but I don't suffer under the illusion it was made for someone other than young Japanese girls.
This is just such an amazingly ridiculous response. Just how much anime do you think was on TV in the US 20 years ago? No, I've never watched anime on TV other than when I was very young and didn't know what anime was. You complained of market over-saturated with magical girl shows. At what point did this occur, because I must have missed it.
There's the rub. Sure it's being demanded. By otaku who buy Blu-rays/DVDs in Japan; they eat it up. That works for now. But non-otaku don't much care for it, it doesn't do much to create new fans, and it sells poorly outside of Japan. That's why it's a problem in the long term. You cannot expand a market by catering to only the most hardcore of fans.
They're mostly crap for the same reason most anime is crap and most media is crap. That's just the way things are. Most of those OVAs were junk, yet there still a few I liked and own. Most moe is crap and I don't even like the concept, yet there are still moe shows I have bought because they can still be good. If a show is good, I'll buy them if they get a decent release, regardless of age.
There isn't much demand. Older anime in general sells poorly, probably because most fans are young and want what's new, don't like the look of non-digital animation, don't like older character designs, or all three. This has nothing to do with the worth of older shows, but it's a fact. I'd like to see Rose of Versailles on DVD/Blu-ray in the US with a nice quality release. Will it happen? Never is most likely. Now if you'd like to go on insisting that moe sells just fine outside of Japan, and there's no problem at all, no matter how high a percentage of anime made is moe, go ahead. I won't be arguing the point further since anything I say past this will be a rehash of points I've already made. Ignore reality if you wish. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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The only offensive thing about Family Guy is that it attracts too many brainless fans. Other than that, unless you're a religious person, you should be able to enjoy it. Weird to see cartoon involved in all this... or perhaps not. Since both are drawings... As for the current discussion. Well, whatever is decided here won't change a thing in the anime industry, besides my interest in reading about Moe vs All has dried up by now; in case I had any to begin with. My only regret is that I'm not capable of enjoying Clannad, Air and the other, like everyone else does; because to me, the character design looks hopelessly retarded. |
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hissatsu01
Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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That's a good point. Given the sheer volume of moe fanservice and porn (videos, doujinshi, eroge, fanart), the oft heard claim that moe and sexual attraction are totally separate things seems more than a bit disingenuous. Someone must get turned on by it.
Is it the the eyes being too far apart and mouth too high up between them? Those character designs always reminded me of Down syndrome. Or a fish. Not attractive. |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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It's their boobies man. Their boobies! But nah, jokes aside. You're correct. It's their eyes, most likely. Perhaps the anime would've been a bigger hit, had they chosen a different character design. But the drama quality is indisputably high, and the only reason I'd actually consider watching it.
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