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Dakaran wrote:

What about the sites considered online libraries wouldn't they be exempted from copyright law if they go that way?

Most are. For example, the Library of Congress has works on its website anyone can copy without worries of copyright infringement.

However, most public libraries are very adamant about putting works online for the very fear they will be sued even though they're exempt. The primary reason: digital distribution.

Although libraries themselves don't distribute, by placing works on a distribution system (which is what the internet is) crosses a line the entertainment industry feels is unjustified.

That's how idiotic all this is now. If a library posts a scan of Dragonball manga online, is it infringing? No, of course not. It's just becomes their fault when little Johnny downloads it and shares it with his friends (which is what art's about, right?).

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I think we definitely need online libraries of some sort in the genre.

I don't see this happening for a quite some time. By definition, the internet is also a library, given billions and billions of information is accessible in ways mankind has never seen before. The internet truly is a wonderful achievement, but leave it to corporations to try and capitalize on it while disregarding its purpose.

Two distribution systems are now competing against each other. The internet's going to win. It's just going to take a little time.

So what? It's only American comic books. I wouldn't go near those with a 10 foot pole. This shouldn't even be on here.

These threads are always the same, Lots of ranting about how WRONG scans are. Most people who read scans know its illegal, If people have free access something in their home they are going to use it! Personally I like scans better. they are more clear, and don't leave your hands smelling like cheap paper! Laughing

But just because I like scans doesn't mean I dont support the industry. I have at least 300 volumes of manga sitting beside me that I very rarely read. Does that not seem like a waste of resources? Rolling Eyes

Maybe instead of wasting our tax dollars on server busts the industry should take into consideration what the fans want and take a leap into technology.

working for a scanlation group, I can say we abhor those groups that release American licensed stuff or are not in support of the manga industry. The only thing we bring to our fans are unlicensed manga and the second it's licensed, it gets pulled and fans are told to go buy the manga in support of the work. Hell we even suggest fans support the Japanese industry by purchasing their works when/if they have the means.

Without them, there is no us. But the fact remains that not every manga in existence will make it's way to America, and those good ones that will never make it, should have a chance for recognition over here, because many of them are awesome and I jump at the chance to bring it to the fans.

It's like the Metroid manga I worked on. Tokyopop had it licensed and somewhere along the lines, it got dropped, didn't even have a chance to start, but people were interested, so we did it and gave it to the fans. If Tokyopop were to ever come back and license the manga, it would be pulled. There has to be some common sense and respect for what you are doing to keep on the good (aka unknown) side of the manga industry.

In my discussions with manga publishers, some groups are actually watched to see if there releases become popular. If it appears the fan base is growing, they may pick it up. Scan groups can be a great way to feel out what's popular and what's not. I'm sure I could go on and on with the good and the bad, but it's all been discussed before so I won't bother Razz

PetrifiedJello wrote:

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There's a key difference though. The library paid for the copy and has a legal ability to loan manga to you.

Most libraries receive their works as donations and can loan them out because they're exempt from copyright law. Most people don't know this, either.

Libraries are not exempt from copyright law. They are just allowed to go about certain actions (ex: the loaning of the physical copy of the work) as exemptions.

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This at least shows that they care enough to do something about it.

By using the FBI to take down a server where the issue is civil, not criminal? I'm sorry, but this is nothing more than a gross misrepresentation of the use of taxpayer funds.

Large scale copyright infringement for profit can be criminal and is a federal crime and thus falls under the FBI's jurisdiction.

Last edited by prime_pm on Thu May 06, 2010 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total

I'm not going to take sides on the whole scanlation business, having been on both sides of the fence at times.

I will say: if you're going to mooch off of manga without buying, you might as well use a computer instead of sitting in the middle of the damn aisle blocking the shelf off from other customers! Less likely to get a fresh set of cleats in your face!

You see, on the one hand, scanlations are doing wrong by posting licensed material and deterring profit from the legal distributors like Del Rey and TokyoPop. And on the other hand, there are many titles that don't stand a slim of a chance being brought over to the states by even Dr. Master.

Course, maybe some European will get it and they can translate it there, but I digress.

But, hell, this American comic scansite deserves to be shut down. We're talking domestic soil here.

prime_pm wrote:

I will say: if you're going to mooch off of manga without buying, you might as well use a computer instead of sitting in the middle of the damn aisle blocking the shelf off from other customers! Less likely to get a fresh set of cleats in your face!

lol completely agree. There are countless times I just want to step on those people that sit in the middle of borders with nothing better to do then get their fix.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Although libraries themselves don't distribute, by placing works on a distribution system (which is what the internet is) crosses a line the entertainment industry feels is unjustified.

That's how idiotic all this is now. If a library posts a scan of Dragonball manga online, is it infringing? No, of course not. It's just becomes their fault when little Johnny downloads it and shares it with his friends (which is what art's about, right?).

Several Libraries are going digital, college libraries in particular. In my last term of community college recently I had to use their digital libraries. It seems they pay for the rights to their digital material, and the digital archives they subscribe to, and just have security systems with user names and passwords to access content and prove you're a student.

Text books are starting to go digital too, though the college text book industry is reluctant.

prime_pm wrote:

But, hell, this American comic scansite deserves to be shut down. We're talking domestic soil here.

Absolutely correct. Why have a comic scan site when you can go down the street or a town or two over and get what you need. Hell if you're looking at it on the internet, you can order it off ebay or something.

Again, proper ways to do something and this is definitely not one of them.

Yeah, comics are a different story being local and easy to get anywhere in North America.

bayoab wrote:

Libraries are not exempt from copyright law.

Section 108 states otherwise. Though subsection H is why libraries don't post works given the law has a hole so large, those who enforce it don't understand the term "one copy".

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Large scale copyright infringement for profit can be criminal and is a federal crime and thus falls under the FBI's jurisdiction.

The FBI has been forced its hand, friend. Note the comment I made above and the quote from the FBI's website:

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As of August 2006, the FBI has authorized use of the FBI Anti-Piracy seal and warning by members of the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), the Software & Information Industry Association (SIIA), the Business Software Alliance (BSA) and the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), subject to each member entering into a formal Uniform Authorization Agreement. Association members should contact the MPAA, RIAA, SIIA, BSA, or ESA for more information.

Note the year and those who can use it. The seal's been in use longer than that. But artists can't use it? Indeed.

The DMCA was passed in 1998. The FBI's involvement only started recently due to pressure from the entertainment industry's push on Congress and I seriously doubt the director wants to use manpower on a civil matter. He doesn't have a choice.

littlegreenwolf wrote:

Several Libraries are going digital, college libraries in particular.

There's been news several libraries were also served DMCA take-down notices as well. Again, definitions are mixed on what libraries can do.

Universities are also exempt from copyright law, but as you stated, the line's so blurred, that monies are being wasted just to ensure they're not sued. Hell, one professor even sued the very university he works for because they put his textbook online.

Copyright is just too complicated to be effective anymore.

Dakaran wrote:

Yeah, comics are a different story being local and easy to get anywhere in North America.

Tell that to the two+ hour round trip I have to take to find my nearest comic shop. Manga is easier to get a hold of since they have bookstore distributors. No one in my town gets comic periodicals, and you can't order periodicals through Ingram.

@Petrified

I totally agree with you. I like to think along the lines that every pirate is a potential customer, and free samples can stimulate sales, if done right. Thing is, that since the average price of a 32 page comic went up to $3.99, many comic fans have cut back, stopped buying certain series, or wait for trade paper back compilations later on. Thus, single issues are dying a slow death. Its far too black and white to just say piracy is evil, as it depends on the material in question (and any positive aspects of file sharing are always shouted down). On top of all that, these industries were prewarned abot the rise of the net, but sat on their hands. As a result they will be forever playing catch up and never win.

@Ayashe

You dismiss a lot of good american work with that statement. The best american comics are found by digging deep past the superhero stuff. Just like manga, there are a lot of good books that you'd possibly like, once you get passed the east vs west hubris. I urge you to try, Drafted, DMZ and The Walking Dead, then stand by that statement (wiki them if you must).

Back on topic, while the FBI might have gone after that site, other will easily pop up. I'll admit that I have sampled scans of U.S works. In fact The Walking Dead I sampled as a scan, and fell in love with that series, now supporting it with purchased volumes. I then turned many of my friends onto it. Image now do samples on of first issues of a comic on their website, which is a great move, but unfortunately, not all publishers are so forward thinking.

@SharonLove

Manga scans I do read, but 99% of the time, I focus my attention on unlicensed niche series, that would probably be to big a risk to publish in english. Nice to see that manga scanners can live by a code of sorts, and pull stuff when licensed.

The chances of the FBI going after manga scan sites is slim at best, as its foreign product, which they earn nothing from. Also the better relationship between scanners and publishers, will flow better, when a work is requested to be removed by a publisher, thus no need to get all legal (a very U.S trait). When something hits the scan sweet spot, I will buy it once its on sale, though.

I think it's worth noting that some companies are at least trying to step up with a legal alternative. VIZ has chapters online for their Rumic world and SigIKKI manga, and preview chapters for almost everything else, and even Tokyopop has some sample chapters. I know that digital distribution rights are different from publishing rights--the companies have to purchase them separately. I know Japanese companies have been resistant to digital distribution in the past with anime, so maybe it's just taking the manga companies time to get these rights in America.

Shay Guy wrote:

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It's especially ridiculous to me as an avid comic book fan to know that there are sites with entire comic books available. The typical comic only costs $3, which isn't exactly a hardship.

Which is significantly more than it used to be, even accounting for inflation. That's what, $0.10 a page? A ~200 page tankobon in Japan can go for as little as 420 yen. Even in the US, it'll only go for $10, or $0.05 a page. And even that's $10 for half an hour's entertainment -- one hour at most -- compared to much cheaper novels. If I want to buy all of Knights of the Zodiac, it'll set me back well over $200.

So you're conveniently forgetting, then, that the overwhelming majority of American comics books are colored, whereas manga tankoubon almost never are beyond possibly a couple of introductory pages? The coloring quality in American comic books is vastly superior to the occasional manga page that gets colored, too (or at least it was when I stopped regularly reading American comic books a couple of years ago) and the paper quality is almost invariably better.

And, as someone else said, American comic books are first-run releases, while tankoubon are essentially compiled rereleases. That's like comparing anime single DVD volumes to boxed set rereleases.

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