Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! DMCA MSRP WTF
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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As soon as people start "simplifying it" to say "basically" what it says, its necessary to ask about their level of legal expertise. I do not personally have any special legal expertise, so I am going to avoid simplifying it myself, and go to the law professor linked to in the blog post linked to above
So according to this info, sites that do not follow current industry standard practices can not take any comfort from this ruling. In particular,
So, what Viacom was asking for was to get the court to agree to restrictions on the "safe harbor" provisions to make them basically useless, and the court threw the suit out. If a site promotes itself as a place to get infringing material with its meta tags, that looks a lot like proof that it possesses "red flag" knowledge. And if it does not promptly takedown when it has red-flag knowledge, its infringing. As to what it means for the leech anime streaming sites ... it means that the strategy for forcing them out of the business of competing with legit streaming is very much alive, because that strategy relies on the industry standard practices - it does not need a change in the DMCA, it only needs to use the DMCA effectively. And this slides right into this week's question on leech anime streaming sites. The legal pretense of these sites is that they do not host the infringing material, they only link to it. Of course, the reality is that they are the naughty "users" uploading illegal material causing such a nuisance to YouTube, Veoh, Megavideo, MySpace, etc. And part of that is commercial. Crunchyroll was able to stream the material themselves, because they had such a big fanbase, including a big "star member" fanbase, and so they had the revenues to cover streaming costs. And back when it was a bootleg hosting site, even Crunchyroll was forced to try to cut down their streaming costs by adopting a policy of taking down licensed work. These little sites raising money from heaving bosoms banner ads for ad-supported multiplayer games are getting less than one tenth of cent per clickthrough or view, and they can't afford to host the streams themselves. They have to be pinworms in the gut of Megavideo or Veoh or MySpace, getting the big free streaming sites to do the hard work. But the big free video streaming sites are "safe harbors", and if they get takedown notices, they take material down promptly (well, most of them - MySpace owned by Rupert Murdoch seems to be a bit of a Pirate Base, which shows what a complete hypocrite Rupert is). And the leech streaming sites have to make the links available to the user. So all that is required is to twice a week do a data-mine sweep the series pages of leech streams competing with legit streams, which is thousands of links, then sort them by streaming host and send off the takedown notices. And since the leech streaming sites run their sites off of databases and so they display the titles in a regular way in their pages, its possible to collect the name of the title with the link during the automatic sweep. It takes a couple of seconds per link to get the info, then the person with legal authority to generate the takedown notice, and then the leech streaming site has to have their volunteers re-upload the old material. Do that twice a week and sooner or later the volunteers (also known as "suckers" contributing their time so the leech upload site can generate ad revenue), will get sick of fighting it and will focus on the shows that are not licensed. One person with legal authority to send a takedown notice form letter working two days a week could, with the right computer tools, babysit five to ten leech streaming sites. They need to be able to operate command line tools and read raw html, but advanced programming skills are definitely not needed. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Ah, Minami-ke. Why Hidamari Sketch was licensed over Minami-ke is a question I will never know the answer. I, too, would love it see it here in the States, but I have to agree with Brian that the odds of that happening are quite slim at this point.
But hey, at least we did get Ichigo Mashimaro, right? Just not the OVAs... |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Agreed, but at the same time, these "obscured" sites aren't the issue. It's those big money makers. Those obscured sites, unfortunately, do grow to take the place of the larger ones once they're out of the picture, but it's very unlikely additional monies will be spent on the "little guys" at the same time. I can't imagine the publishing coalition will sue over 1,000 sites at once, and the DMCA makes this incredibly difficult to boot in order to win.
I read your interview and noted this. I also noted your "make copyright criminal" remark. Boy, did that upset me. I had written a very expressive response, but realized the point wouldn't matter. There are those who are extraordinarily adamant about "protecting IP rights" and it's not uncommon to see them allow their emotions to make some comments people like me will find ridiculous. I understand the need to protect one's IP, but there's a line that gets crossed when innocent customers are the ones paying for it. In the entertainment industry, this cost is getting out of hand, and ironically, is turning innocent customers into the very pirates the IP protectors are fighting against. I disagree copyright should be criminal. It needs to be abolished, and a new set of laws put in place so both parties can feel at ease. I commend your efforts, but one day, I believe you'll suffer the "Sisyphus Syndrome" and eventually give up. They all do, in time.
Yes, but fair use is removed and this pisses me off unlike any other law to protect IP. If I bought a movie, I should be well within my rights to rip parts of it out to discuss it. Now, thanks to the DMCA, I'm a criminal for doing what Copyright law has always allowed me to do. Hence the need it all needs to be abolished and re-written to be fair, not one sided towards the entertainment industry. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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From economic perspective, as opposed to the moralistic perspective that so many people seem to prefer arguing ("its evil!" "its a basic human right!"), that seems close to correct. There is one remaining harm that can be done by someone in a country that does not have the work licensed and who cannot afford or cannot understand available imports. That is providing advertising revenues that keep bootleg sites up, undermining the market in the countries where it exists. So long as the material is obtained from a site that does not generate ad revenue from the process, it seems very much like "no harm, no foul". Of course, Crunchyroll is getting an increasing amount of its streams available in Latin America - most of their recent simulcasts are all of Region4 (Latin America, Australia and New Zealand) ... the only recent simulcast I recall that skipped Latin America was Giant Killing ... and Giant Killing was delayed so long in starting, it seems likely the rights holders were waiting to find out where there was interest in a full-rights exclusive license and CR got what was left. The big problem areas are Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and Southern, Central, and Eastern Europe. It seems like a leech streaming site that wanted to avoid hassles could set up to detect regions and redirect users to legal streams when available. Its hard to understand, though, why rights holders would deny CR non-exclusive streaming rights in their country - every anime broadcast this season will be available for streaming one way or another to every country in the world ... the only question is whether one of the streaming sites is one where you can get a marketing tie-in, direct link to places to buy stuff from you, maybe work out a deal to get an occasional free streaming ad dropped in, in return for a blanket license to stream for the first six months after release on any material you license. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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Really? Generally, most anime fans seem to at least know about Azumanga, if not seen it, whereas you can probably still find quite a few fans not that familiar about Yotsuba. It probably helps that the former actually has an anime version. Anyway, in regards to the third question, Clannad definitely did appear to sell well in the initial sets even before a dub was announced, and on the animeondvd forums Robert's Anime Corner Store reported that the upcoming dub set is also selling like crazy. STILL, I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that every show really will make enough to warrant a dub based on ONE show's performance, especially when past cases argue otherwise (Gurren Lagann's dub release was reportedly disappointing). |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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First of all, given your typos, there's a chance English isn't your first language and America/Canada isn't your region, so I apologize up front if what I say has no relevance to you whatsoever. (deep breath) 1. "Prices are outrageous"?? Prices are awesome lately. I just got the second season of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex for $30. And not a condensed, 6-7 episodes a DVD version either, all the original DVDs repackaged. Check out Rightstuf for deals. Sure, there are still some companies that are being foolish with their initial releases, but if you're willing to wait, you can find excellent prices. 2. You don't need to to own everything you like. 3. You can rent anime from Netflix and even some brick-and-mortar shops, you can check it out from the library, Funimation has most of their catalog up online, etc. You have many options for watching anime legally, much of which actually supports the industry. For example, Netflix has to pay companies a fee to keep their titles available. Libraries have to purchase DVDs. Stream sites... well, it's unclear how much advertising really supports them, but they do give you an option to preview. 4. In short, there are many, MANY opportunities available... ...if you live in America/Canada. Elsewhere in the world...? Well, for starters, nobody seems to have figured out that the internet has made regions obsolescent. Some "regions" get barely anything (I feel for you, Australia/NZ). Some languages never have official releases. Etc., etc. So there are definitely problems on a global scale even if some regions have done a lot to improve the situation. ... Oh, and I don't feel I have a "right" to read manga; that's why I'm so appreciative of the scanlators who do good jobs releasing unlicensed manga. A free service that lets me know about products I might otherwise never hear about? Awesome! People who whine about release schedules or groups that rush out poor quality work just so they can be "first"? They bug me so much. And believe me, I much prefer the old-fashioned paper and ink versions, and some of these series I'd love to get in the original Japanese. Unfortunately... just about every site I've been told about has its advantages and disadvantages, and I'm a bit at a loss about where is the best place to purchase manga (or light novels, Baccano! fan that I am) straight from Japan. I mean, whenever I manage to get there myself, you bet I'm picking up Yawara! first thing. I read the first few volumes scanlated, and I'm desperate for more. Please, please license this, somebody! |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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@agila61
Well I'd say there is a need for ethical business leaders, we've had some really bad examples, some more recent than others. Those could be said to have been consumed by greed and not caring for people and what harm they are doing, ironic coming from the person saying they should focus on customer service as you have to have a level of caring and desire to help, if we shouldn't care about people and their families and how they are going to make a living how can this fabled customer service occur? Plus while it has been awhile since I've picked up my musical instrument of choice (and my singing has been relegated to Rock Band, which by the way is another unique solution to selling music.) I have friends that are living their respective dreams being artists and musicians, I'd like for them to be able to release their music as they see fit, but they are still unknown for the most part, as putting their music on the internet doesn't help if your still obscure, you have to do more than just that. So if there was any renegotiation of copyright that PJ imagines than that point would have to go in there, and have someone like him understand that by giving the artists that freedom they can go wherever they want to, they always could, and that includes going to a big publisher and giving that publisher the capability to represent their interest. For unless we are talking about a child artist, most are adults and should be allowed to make that decision vs. having it forced upon them. So if the artist/license holder doesn't want their work up for streaming it becomes a matter of respecting that wish and from a business prospective go to someone else, there are other artists willing to do so. That's just one of the possibilities of the non-universality that is streaming right now. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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All of these excuses only apply to a minority. A majority of people who watch fansubs watch them on leech streaming sites where (1) its streaming, (2) the encoding it worse (3) its the same variety of flash player as the legit streaming sites use. For the rest, you are quite right. {edit/attribution} Josh gave an oversimplified description ... it should have been, "are really impatient, selfish, or stupid". That would then cover all of the people who patronize fansubs against competing legit streams that generate income back to the studios that create the work.
Only when the authors agree. That's kind of a massive difference there, no? Baen do not make all of their books available - only a minority. And access to unedited manuscripts is for subscribers, not for free download. Last edited by agila61 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Keichitsu0305
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Okay I'm going to try and not step on any eggshells.
Starting with the whole "anime/manga is too expensive so I'm going to watch/read it online for free" thing. In my view, that shows how irresponsible that individual consumer is. teh*darkness wrote
While I agree with the fact that reading manga (or any form of entertainment) is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT, it's rather harsh to say you should go without it. I'm not 100% certain but some countries simply don't have the privileges to have a diverse set of titles available to the consumer. But that, of course, doesn't justify them to download or watch illegal content. KEY_Amazed wrote
If people believe that DVDS are expensive then do what my parents did during the age of Blockbuster and Hollywood Rental: RENT THEM!! Websites such as Anime Takeout (BTW they also have a manga section!!) Rentanime and even YouTube are yours for the picking!! Of course, on the issue with languages, that is something I can't help with (sorry non-English, Spanish, Japanese speakers) As for trying to make existing companies more diverse in thier content, advertisment, and/or distrubting? I would consider PetrifedJello (funny name btw) advice: PetrifiedJello wrote
This approach goes back to the responsibility of the consumer themselves. There is no way a product can change if the buyer doesn't say anything. Which is why I purpose on writing a letter to either Funimation or Viz Media or any company that you feel needs a change in pace! It might sound like you're nagging but it's better than keeping silent while people lose their jobs on your irresponsibly. Okay, i'm done ranting!! ^^ |
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Teriyaki Terrier
 Posts: 5689 |
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Brian, your awesome. Seriously, don't let anyone tell your not, because you really are. That said, I really enjoyed the comic and your responses.
I am not even going to deny the fact I feel mad about the discussion about Toradora. However, I've been buying games from NIS probably before some of you were even born, so I am not mad really all that mad. I only really dislike Sentai, but that another topic for another day. Toradora is a once in a decade masterpiece, so obviously another masterpiece of that magnitude probably won't happen for several more years. This might offend some people, but it must be said. Either that flake is a complete nimrod or he really does think ANN controls Yu-gi-oh. I mean seriously, come on! Does this site even look like a licensing company? Great article Brian. Always a pleasure to read your columns. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Since business behavior mostly comes up as an immature excuse to shift responsibility for the consequences of individual choices, actions to someone else, I am not even going to open up that third issue. After all, these are mostly corporations we are talking about, which have neither bodies to incarcerate nor souls to save (UTube). Getting respect for the law from a corporation is hard enough. I am not going to spend a lot of time worrying about that unicorn, "the ethical corporation". I don't care whether the industry is successful for the sake of the companies. Its the fact that collapse of the industry without anything to take its place means that the artists lose their income, that's what I care about.
Well, copyright is a contingent right, granted because of the conviction that it results in a benefit to society by encouraging the creation of original work. If there was some other system that did an equal or better job of encouraging the creation of original work, then of course a society could decide to switch to that system instead of the copyright system. I have no idea what that system would be, but that is the responsibility of the Web-Utopians to come up with a replacement and persuade a majority that it does in fact perform as promised. I sure as hell aint holding my breath. |
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Greed1914
 Posts: 4434 |
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I seriously don't get where people come up with the idea that they're expected to buy everything. Of course not, buy the stuff you liked when you can. If you hated it, by all means, skip it. That's how they know what to make, by what sells If you need to save up for something, that's cool, go ahead. I'm also confused about you not limiting your joys because of money. That's the way the world works. People make something and they expect others to either pay them for it, or to pass on it. It's fine if you want to try stuff out, but don't act like there is any entitlement or that they're wrong to expect some sort of compensation. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Precisely. If its licensed in your country but not streaming, and there is something like Netflix, Quickflix, Webflix, rent it. If there is nothing like that, get together with nine other fans and chip in $3 each to get a $30 DVD box set or three volumes of Manga and share it around. |
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jr240483
 Posts: 4380 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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Unfortunately answerman , I've done that multiple times and so far , those stereaming sites are still there. I've also flagged multiple ripped videos that are hosted via youtube,veoh,myspace,etc and their still there. It sometimes feel that me and that guy you answered are probably the only two guys that are supporting the series the right way cause it seems that we'e losing and badly. Now on those streaming sites their using their own streaming players. I myself would either watch via TV broadcast or on dvd ,just recently got Vol 1,2,3,5,6 of Stand Alone Complex as well as Sol Bianca : The Legacy. but it's not gonna be enough cause both the US and Japan industries needs to do something about these illegal streaming sites and fansubs fast. One of the main is to have legal subs of series in the US that might not get released in the US , especially kids series. The big targets for fansubs are both pokemon and Yugioh cause fansubbers know their licensors will never release a sub with the original scrpipt which it deemed " not suitable for US children". that is the real bunch of crap. now the other child like series (Bakguan & Heavy Metal Beyblade) are also being targeted by fansubbers Though I am a dub only person i would not mind buying them in sub since my sister watches subs, but with fansubbers and ilegal streamers going on a frenzy, that threat from Bang Zoom's CEO might come true in 2011 and I can't blame him for it. and I wont be susprised that others studios do the same thing as well as companies like Viz and Funi do a Sentai/Section 23 and release sub only titles. Companies on both sides need to do something and fast before it is far too late. |
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Showsni
 Posts: 641 |
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With regards to the copyright issue... Have I got this right? Let's take a hypothetical situation.
Japanese Company A releases a manga (or anime). Japanese fan B makes scans of the manga, and uploads them to the internet. English fan C downloads the scans, translates the text, replaces the text in the scans, and reuploads to some large free to use site D (for anime, something like youtube, veoh, megavideo). American site E posts a link to the scans/episode. American fan F visits site E, clicks through to site D and watches/reads the material. Then... F hasn't broken the law, as they've just read available material. E hasn't broken the law, as they're just posting a link. D is breaking the law, as they're publishing the copyrighted material; if they're asked to remove it, though, they will. C is breaking the law, as they copied the scans and published them online. B is breaking the law, as they copied the manga. So, going after F or E doesn't really accomplish anything, as they haven't broken the law. You can go after D, and they will remove the material, but it's likely someone will reupload it. C and B, being individuals, are weaker links in the chain who can be targeted, but again, shutting one down can just cause another to spring up. |
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