Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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It's more than that. She effectively put aside her wishes and emotions to become a perfect king. It failed spectacularly (Mordred and the Battle of Camlann) and she, convinced that it was all her fault, decided that she needs to redo the past. When Shiro meets her she's little more than a robot. She considers herself a tool to win the war which in turn will allow her to fulfill what she feels is her duty. That she allows herself the selfish act of answering Shiro's feelings (what she sees in him is a kindred soul not a sexist bone-headed teenager) is thus inherently an improvement, at least within the framework of this particular story. She starts to consider what she herself wants. And that culminates with the choices she makes at the end. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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This reminded me that there was once a discussion about it that may be helpful. Sexism in Fate/stay night. Personally, I don't think that Shiro being a sexist is his main problem, but that he is an utter idiot. Last edited by Aylinn on Thu May 02, 2013 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Oh wow  That's some intense dislike there.
So let's keep voting for Tsume! Though for him to win, I suppose we need some of the Usagi supporters from before to change their mind or for not all but some of them to switch to Saber. Or lose/gain voters. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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I hang my head shame. Not only have I had a really crappy recent history of not voting because I randomly fell asleep when I wanted to vote a the last minute, my mini-game rank is dropping faster than Enron stock. But unlike Enron stock's decline, this analyst saw it coming. Thing is it really great when you predict your own demise or is that just pathetic in its own right?
I would share my score analysis prediction score, but it seem like no one really gives a rat's behind about them given the lack of feedback. Here's the Executive Summary regardless stated in financial terms: OneEye - Stock price rises Olliff - Stock price rises marie-anotinette- Stock price unchanged Rosebrook - Stock price falls WhiteHairGirls - Stock price rises farichada - Stock price falls 95%. Company is facing chapter 11 bankruptcy and there are rumors of accounting fraud and that the company is unable to pay back creditors on their current loans. Strangely, investors are largely unhurt due to an odd move where the CEO bought most of its own stock before the decline and the fact that she urged others to sell when she predicted the decline of the company in an outburst that can only be described as lunacy while being in front of the press. The Federal Exchanges Commission is thoroughly confused. It is a big mystery if they will charge the CEO with fraud since it appears she had a mental breakdown and unlike most cases of fraud she took actions to protect her shareholders. Group C-21 Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise Watnuki isn't bad but compared to Youko his merits are comparable to bag of stinking garbage that your roommate hasn't that taken out for weeks when you have been out of town for a long time. Youko Nakajima. Youko starts out as a whiny little bi*** that is so freaking unlikable that you want to claw out your eyes and drop the series. She is also the embodiment of first world problems initially and I had no sympathy for her. She slowly becomes more respectable, growing in wisdom and then eventually shouldering more and more responsibility with increasing amounts of success. She eventually emerges as a wise ruler that commands all of my respect and almost no fragments of her terrible former self are present. Lastly, worth mentioning Youko is put in a horrible position and much is expected of her. Instead of floundering and messing up like the weak @$$ person she is initially she surprises the audience by actually doing have decent job. I guess there is a reason this show has fantasy as a genre because in reality the likelihood of this happening is lower than being struck by freaking lightning. Group C-22 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Youko will claim another victim no matter who wins here since I am very pissed off that either of these guys made it this far. None of them are worthy in my eyes of going this far. Kenshin mainly because of the fact that his type of improvement of going from murderer to not want to randomly kill people is more severe than some snot-nosed kid who doesn't want to use his cheat codes anymore to win at a game. #FirstWorldProblems Group D-21 Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Rue Has everyone completely forgotten about the Simon jail scene and the whole fiasco that was brought up in the Best Hero contest? There is a reason why he failed so miserably there in the later rounds, and for this tournament it is not different. His improvements are set back Even freaking more than that Simon become more brutal and Kamina like as the story progresses and he loses his initial gentle nature. Is that what people would consider to be an improvement worthy of someone deserving to make to the god***** finals? I think not. Its like everyone her has targeted amnesia or early onset Alzheimers. Simon is not a strong competitor here and should be voted down with haste. Group D-22 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero The circus show continues with the insanity that is the match that will determine the group D winner. The raging fan girl in me wants to vote for Sailor Moon, but that part of me already royally screwed me over in the first minigame I actually had a chance to do well in. So screw that fangirlism and I am going to be objective here and vote for Saber. Saber is a victim of sexism and Shiro was the chauvinist pig that demonstrates that the cultural gender roles in Japan are quite different than in the West to dream up something as messed up as this. Tsume is bag of garbage and I have no idea why he is winning right now. I have seen the series and while the improvement is there the circumstances of the improvement and the barriers to make the improvement just aren't any where as huge as they are with Saber. Even crybaby of the year Sailor freaking Moon is more deserving to win than Tsume which everyone here freaking seems to walk on water like Jesus when that whole show had inflated characters. Apologies sirs and maams if I can across as a little pissed off because I was. You might say wait to vote if you are mad. I say I need to vote now or I'll freaking forget again because I will wait to the last minute and I will randomly fall asleep again like an idiot. Last edited by farichada on Wed May 01, 2013 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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True but only because the chart shows round A and B separately. As far as the actual timing of things goes, I really just stayed the course
It will definitely be interesting to see if it goes down to the finals for the mini-game. IIRC, the one game I came in second (the Most Intelligent one, I think?) looked like it might do that ... except myself and the person in first had all the same picks. So I wonder if One-Eye and I both picked the same character to win. |
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farichada
Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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You are still favored to win, but your edge has fallen mainly because of some unlikely results and the tie. It was more other people doing better than expected than you missing picks if that makes any sense. So I guess it would be more true to say your stock value remained flat, I'll fix that.
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18206 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Wow, farichada, get your venting out of your system? You're still ahead of me in any case, and while I'm only four points behird 3rd place, what would have to happen for me to catch up seems unlikely at this point.
Anyway, on to voting! Group C-21 Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise Youko, and for pretty much the same reasons that farichada specified. Group C-22 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs. Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal Kenshin - and again, for the same reasons as farichada. -------------------------------------------------- Group D-21 Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Here I'm in sharp contrast to farichada, as I completely disagree with her points. Simon does suffer a setback - no question about that! - but he grows out of that funk, too, and his overall improvement is still much more substantial than Rue's. And I don't agree, either, that it's a foregone conclusion that the winner of D-22 wins Group D; not by a longshot. Group D-22 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Voted against Tsume last round, so he's out. I am very surprised by how little support Usagi is getting, but the arguments against her have convinced me that she's not as strong a choice as I thought she was. That just leaves Saber, who is worthy here anyway. It's easy to underestimate just how important and extensive her change is in the late stages of F/SN; since some recent posts have elaborated on this quite a bit, I'll let them stand as my arguments, too. Last edited by Key on Fri May 03, 2013 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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It's a shame you weren't convinced a little earlier of that
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Group C-21
Watanuki - Honestly from what I've read it sounds to me that there wasn't all that much wrong with Youko in the first place. At the very least, not as much as there was wrong with Watanuki. And if I'm not mistaken 12 Kingdoms was left incomplete, wasn't it? It seems Youko did become a capable leader, but by the end Watanuki basically became Yuuko, and we all know how incredibly capable Yuuko is. Group C-22 Hikaru - Kenshin reconnected with his old personality that he had to bury in order to perform his duty. It's not so much an improvement as it is a regression. Definitely doesn't beat out Hikaru's growth as a person and a player. Group D-21 Rue - I went on at length last round about how I don't think Simon improved. Just the opposite, really. Group D-22 Saber - Yeah, the cries of sexism are pretty overblown. A girl falling in love with a boy is not sexist (unless you're an extreme feminist, maybe). What's important is that Saber allowed herself to do so. She dedicated her entire life to her country at the expense of her own humanity. Her idea of kingship is one who shoulders all burdens and thinks only of their country. This proved to be her downfall as her people saw her cold and distant attitude unfavourably. "King Arthur does not understand her people" one knight said. So strong was her desire to protect her country that even when it turned on her and she met her end she desired the Grail in order to undo her kingship. She blamed herself completely for what happened to Camelot that she thought it would turn out fine if she wasn't the king. So in the series proper she is completely dedicated to this goal. She did not see her life as something that had value, which is why she wanted to undo it. But through meeting Shiro she comes to accept her life for what it was and she allows herself a little bit of happiness for herself. "The king protected her country, but the country didn't protect its king." She saw herself as a mere tool towards an end but finally let herself be human. As I've said before, Saber's honor and duty are such an integral part of her that letting it go is equivalent of chopping one's arm off. It doesn't sound as though Usagi and Tsume's negative traits are so deeply ingrained in their identities as Saber's is. Yes, while honor and sense of duty can be positive traits, Saber takes them to self destructive extremes. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18206 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Then you're reading very wrongly. At the beginning of the story Youko was deep in the midst of a years-long identity crisis. She had no sense of self and just drifted along through life trying to get fulfillment through pleasing others and lacking any capacity to be assertive; the only time she even slightly rebelled is in refusing to color her naturally red hair while in Japan. She had no satisfying connections with anyone, not even her family. Early on during the 12 Kingdoms time she developed major trust issues, too (understandably so, since she was betrayed in a big way on a couple of occasions). She was really a pretty pathetic character for the first several episodes despite having a magic sword and a spirit residing within her that made her nearly indomitable in a fight. The spirit of he sword's sheath could read her mind and attacked her with delusions derived from those weaknesses, so to say that she had to fight to overcome her inadequacies is a fairly literal statement. She had to learn how to assert herself, how to recognize who she could and could not trust, how to have confidence in herself, and how to lead and set an example rather than just playing to them. Her First Proclamation at the end of episode 39 is the summation of everything she's learned, and the understanding that she's developed, over the course of the series, and the reason why it's widely-considered one of the all-time great scenes in anime is because of how perfectly it reflects how far she's come. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I can't really compare how ingrained Tsume's negative traits are in comparison to Saber's, since I haven't seen either of the series she's in, but Tsume does sound somewhat similar in this regard, since his loner and often hostile behaviour come from deep-rooted shame based on past failures, similar to how Saber's is being described. His backstory is that spoiler[he abandoned his original pack during an attack to save himself. After the attack was over, the remaining pack members tossed him out, in the process giving him the prominent scar on his chest.] His development throughout the series, as he becomes a member of the pack, is only possible as he lets go of that shame and it isn't until the very end that he really lets go of that feeling and is able to share his backstory for the first time. |
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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I will also point out, with regards to Youko's development, that while the show itself doesn't have much of an ending, her arc is complete. The show is divided into different stories that often don't have much to do with each other--one following a character called Taiki, one following the characters Enki and Shouryuu, and the two longest ones, which follow Youko. Her arc is complete with the issuing of her First Edict. There is potentially more story there following her life as the king of Kei, but her improvement is pretty much complete at that point.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Sounds a lot like me during high school (except the hair part) and it's not that bad. Plus it's something she probably would have grown out of normally in the first place. Either way, Watanuki's end point is probably better than Youko's non-end point.
If that's the case, then Tsume's attitude is clearly a self defense mechanism and thus on some level he knows he's wrong. Saber firmly believes her actions are what's best for everyone. It's a lot harder to admit something is wrong when you've spent your entire life believing it's right. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Fair enough. Saber does sound like a very strong competitor here. Obviously, I'd like for Tsume to advance further but I can't say I'll be upset if Saber takes it. It should definitely be an interesting match to watch. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18206 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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So? That still involves tremendous improvement. Besides, there are stressors in her situation that I feel fairly confident were never in yours that she had to overcome.
You are grossly underestimating the situation here because you've got it fixed in your head that the series never properly ending = Youko's story never properly coming to a resolution. You are completely wrong on that, and I'm not the only person who's been saying it. I'll have to see if the clips for Youko from the Best Hero game are still active because it sounds like you're going to need to see something like those to be convinced otherwise. |
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