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The X Button - Might Be Wrong

Or this is a carefully made move to kill any future attempts to localize Fatal Frame and finally convince the grumbling fans to give up. The Digital only and now the costume change.

. But even with that overlap, not all things translate well. Like Samus from Other M. Or gravure, which probably requires some familiarity with idol culture.

Boy, I sure hope you mean "exposed female adult form" in there. Here's my take on it. Swimsuits can be sexual, yes, but you have to ascribe sexual attraction to the person wearing it first for it to be arousing. I wouldn't find certain genders or body types (ages included) attractive no matter what kind of swimsuit they're wearing, because that just doesn't rev my engine. So, in that sense, yes, I agree that swimsuit is just clothing, but that the inherent sexiness of the outfit is attributed to the person wearing it, not the outfit itself.

Could someone watching TaT find children sexually arousing? Possibly. But I don't think children wearing swimsuits automatically makes them sexual. By contrast, Yuuri's black swimsuit is HEAVILY lingerie-inspired, so it's fairly sexually charged.

I think that's what you wanted me to address, anyways.

Age of consent refers to sex and/or marriage. In this case, I'm bringing up her age only in relation to her age of majority (18 in the States all around) and whether that makes her a minor or a major(? Not sure if that's the right term). Like I've mentioned elsewhere, the West, particularly the US, is very dodgy about the involvement of minors. Nintendo of America especially bumps up character ages to avoid this.

Those games all have universal themes, and not overly Japanese settings (save Persona; still getting around to playing them). Even so, just playing or being a fan of Japanese games doesn't guarantee you a Japanese mindset. You might become more familiar with tropes in their stories, yes, but you're hardly playing the game in the same mindset as a Japanese person would. That's why Samus' portrayal in Other M went over so poorly; a Japanese person would (I've been told) interpret her quiet tone as being a sign of maturity--in the West, most people found her fairly lifeless.

You're killing me. Please stop. I had no idea swimsuit models and pin-up girls were such a japanese thing that couldn't translate well. I guess the US doesn't have a problem with unrealistic expectations of the female body.

Paiprince wrote:

Persona is heavily rooted in Japanese culture and mythology yet it got super popular. This argument about something being "too Japanesey" does not hold water especially when gamers now are clamoring for more Japanese games to come over, uncut obviously. Asides, Senran Kagura there's Oneechanbara, Akiba's Trip, Arcana Heart etc. Better believe it but the enthusiasm for underage girls isn't rooted to just Japan, despite what your daily a person I disagree with politically blogs say otherwise.

You're putting words in my mouth again. I'm not saying a game being too "Japanese-y" means it won't sell well. I'm saying playing Japanese games won't logically translate into having a Japanese mindset. Also, those "gamers clamoring for more Japanese games" are a niche market, one that overlaps with anime fans. But even with that overlap, not all things translate well. Like Samus from Other M. Or gravure, which probably requires some familiarity with idol culture--also not a thing even all anime fans overlap with, and I'd hazard a guess that gamers who are familiar with both are a minority.

Zerreth wrote:

You're killing me. Please stop. I had no idea swimsuit models and pin-up girls were such a japanese thing that couldn't translate well. I guess the US doesn't have a problem with unrealistic expectations of the female body.

By my understanding, gravure idols are little more nuanced than swimsuit models or pin-up girls, since their appeal relies more on an appeal to youth, kind of like Korea's aagyoo (aegyoo?) thing with their musicians.

Except that it does rev some peoples engines. Why do you think so many people think it exploits the girls in a sexual manner? Pedophiles exist, and a lot of them probably watch the show.

As for whether or not Yuuri's swimwear is appropriate, let's remember, this game is rated N17, meaning sexual themes and violence are to be expected. And considering that all the outfit does is expose her skin (it doesn't change the camera angles to emphasize her but or breast any more than the original game did already) anything sexual applied to it is entirely on the viewer.

Except one is considered a minor in the US on a state-by-state level, there is no majority, and if there was, it would be 16 as the majority of states have that as their requirement. 18 is the age in California, where a lot of our media is made, so the "18 is age of consent in the US" is actually a cultural misconception and is really only a thing on the west coast and a few outliers. Considering that we are talking about a character being viewed with "the intent of being sexual", i'd say age of consent is the appropriate thing to go by.

Also, who's to say initially unfamiliar people of Japanese culture will never grow to think like the Japanese? It's a two way street, just as how Japanese learned to accept aspects of American culture the same can be true in reverse. Don't assume one is virtually incompatible to another.

Oh dear lord. Are we gonna have another debate featuring cultural dissonance?

Sexy teenagers not ok? Yeah, Hannah Montana, Kim Possible and many others would like to have a word...

I'm done. You're obviously stuck in your own delusions of Westerners being incapable of openly enjoying the sexuality of adolescents and how its culture is as guilty of this as Japan's (and the rest of the world by proxy.).

even if the 17 year old in the game looks pretty much of age (full bust and all.)

-snip-

I knew I should've been clearer here. What I meant by referring to Yuuri's outfit was that it was an example of an outfit that was sexually charged, that's all. Her outfit is technically in the clear, since she's an adult (19). Miu's outfit, the white bikini, isn't, because she's a minor, and the cutscene it's in has forced, lascivious camera angles. She's also still underage (17).

Um, I think I confused you on this point. I think Nintendo's issue is having an underage girl being targeted in a skimpy outfit using skeevy camera angles that focus on her breasts and butt. In this case, the age of majority is the only thing that matters, because Miu is not participating in any sexual activities (unless you count gravure as an extension of porn). So, the game is showcasing a moment that is very obviously sexualizing a minor, something that's a big no-no in Western society.

As for the last bit about Japanese mindset, my only point is that playing Japanese games would not necessarily make you open to the same things a Japanese person would find socially acceptable. Sexy teenagers? A-okay in Japan, less so in the West. And playing Japanese games isn't likely to make you any more or less accepting of them if you've been raised in a Western-based society, where that kind of thing is discouraged.

Accept? Yes. Understand? Eh...I could buy that someone who surrounded themselves with and/or lived in another culture would eventually become accustomed to that culture. I don't know if they would ever fully assimilate into that culture, though. Still, playing a few Japanese games is hardly going to get you to that level of total immersion.

Paiprince wrote:

Oh dear lord. Are we gonna have another debate featuring cultural dissonance?

That's...what my point has been this whole time? That Nintendo of America believed their Western (broad) audience would not resonate well with how this game portrays a sexualized minor as an extension of Japanese culture and its approach to sexuality, and thus made appropriate changes.

Again, violence and titillation do not mix. It's just awkward at best.

Nintendo would not get in trouble showing her in such a manner in the majority of the US, and if they were that worried about it, just age her up to 18.

Seems a lot easier than deleting content, which is why I feel this is less of not wanting to get into legal hot water, and more "ew, boobs, how obscene".

Also, oh my god. We are going around in freakin circles. Can we please move on?

Or this is a carefully made move to kill any future attempts to localize Fatal Frame and finally convince the grumbling fans to give up. The Digital only and now the costume change.

Fair enough. I just want to add that I'm also confused why they didn't just age her up (though I've heard there's a time shift involved, so maybe they had to keep her that age to make her status as a student plausible? I think it would've saved a lot of trouble to just age her up instead.

I also feel that, with the general fiasco of Gamergate, Quiet from Metal Gear Solid, and the whole business with female developers generally being treated poorly, Nintendo probably wanted to avoid rocking the boat as much as possible, especially when it came to female characters in games.

But yeah, that's enough for now. I've stated my point enough times in this thread that it doesn't bear repeating.