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How Fire Emblem Became a Phenomenon


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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2389
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:52 pm Reply with quote
My ex loves Fire Emblem and she played all the ones in English before I met her, going back to play the Japanese ones while we were in high school and college. She got me to try #7 on the GBA in high school and I got past halfway when the save file died. She even got me all the way back to that point on an emulator JUST FOR ME, but I still was never able to finish it. Then I borrowed Path of Radiance from her and got through half of that game before I had to start college and give it back. I did play a little more of #7 in college, but again, I never finished it. When Awakening came out, we were sharing the Japanese 3DS, so she played it first and I played Sacred Stones while I waited for her to finish. It was difficult and I didn't get too far before she beat it, so I started Awakening for a looooong time, LOVED it (and it was a fair enough difficulty for me to finally get through it at a satisfying pace!), and eventually beat it in my last year of college. I bought her the English Fire Emblem 3DS that came with the digital game and she played Awakening several times through (even though it's far from her favorite). Now, she runs a tumblr that goes through the translation of Awakening (with bits of if/Fates now) and talks about localization.
Around April last year, she bought Path of Radiance in Japanese and I got to play through halfway again before I left, so I do play to visit again someday and beat it for good... or buy it for myself if it gets difficult to do that (we're still great friends, but I don't want to make her boyfriend uncomfortable either).

I bought Byakuya-Oukoku (Birthright) the day it came out and I spent the next 6 months in Japan getting all the supports available in that one playthrough as possible, since you can grind up exp and support levels infinitely. It takes FOREVER. Then I took a break after beating that route and started Anya-Oukoku (Conquest) shortly before the English release. I want to get all the supports, but I need to buy a DLC map to do that, so I might just play the route again later with that objective. I'm halfway through already. I already bought Invisible Kingdom (Revelations), so that's a definite in time.

In other words, I suck at the style of gameplay (my ex can get through a difficult stage really easy and knows her favorite game, Path of Radiance, like the back of her hand since she beat it a total number of... 7 times now? She beat the Japanese version's insane mode, too), so Awakening and if/Fates are a god-send to me, even if I recognize why some older game fans aren't as big a fan of the general changes they made to the series to appeal to newer fans like me.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5938
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:08 am Reply with quote
Meexa wrote:
One thing that irritated me about the pro reviews in general. Is that they keep acting like birthright and conquest was legitimate stories to fates.


Conquest and Birthright are standalone stories so it's fine for them to do that.

Meexa wrote:
Think of it this way, imagined if each game with multiple storylines where all sold separately.


Each game as in those in the Fire Emblem line or those in Nintendo's library?

Meexa wrote:

Lastly, they need to stop with the more gold and more exp map dlc because it has finally effected the game. I can tell they made getting gold and exp harder, not just to have a "more challenging game,"


I don't know if you've ever played a Fire Emblem game before prior to Fates but up until Sacred Stones or so Gold and Exp were always difficult to come by. And from what I seen no one has had any problems beating either version of the game due to this "alleged" issue some people were able to beat the game even before "Boo Camp" and "Ghostly Gold" came out.

Desa wrote:


It would be stupid to pair a mounted unit with someone on foot since they wouldn't be able to move together as effectively


The person who designed Maribelle and Ricken's recruitment chapter in Awakening didn't get this memo.


Juno016 wrote:

I bought Byakuya-Oukoku (Birthright) the day it came out and I spent the next 6 months in Japan getting all the supports available in that one playthrough as possible, since you can grind up exp and support levels infinitely. It takes FOREVER.


By my math it can take up to 8 playthroughs on a specific map with at least 6 skirmishes or so per playthrough to reach an S rank for just one set of characters, 6 playhthroughs if you're just shooting for an A rank. Thankfully though it won't take me six months to complete as this as I'm almost done with the Gen 1 characters,
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Meexa



Joined: 13 Mar 2016
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:56 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Conquest and Birthright are standalone stories so it's fine for them to do that. Each game as in those in the Fire Emblem line or those in Nintendo's library? I don't know if you've ever played a Fire Emblem game before prior to Fates


No, that is my whole point. They are not stand alone titles, it is just a marketing scheme. With revelations being the true story.

No neither, the entire video game industry as a whole.

Once again no, I've played awakening. I didn't say I couldn't beat the game, it just made it less enjoyable because I wasn't able to use my staff abilities in fates as much as in awakening. If we see another crunch in the 3rd game as well then that confirms further the dlc is starting to effect the game.
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NeonZ



Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 20
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:22 am Reply with quote
Meexa wrote:
Quote:
Conquest and Birthright are standalone stories so it's fine for them to do that. Each game as in those in the Fire Emblem line or those in Nintendo's library? I don't know if you've ever played a Fire Emblem game before prior to Fates


No, that is my whole point. They are not stand alone titles, it is just a marketing scheme. With revelations being the true story.

No neither, the entire video game industry as a whole.

Once again no, I've played awakening. I didn't say I couldn't beat the game, it just made it less enjoyable because I wasn't able to use my staff abilities in fates as much as in awakening. If we see another crunch in the 3rd game as well then that confirms further the dlc is starting to effect the game.


Revelations obviously has the most... revelations and the big bad final boss and such but each path has a narrative of its won. In Japan, Revelations wasn't even in the SE cart, since the route wasn't ready at launch, it only had a DLC code for it. Birthright and Conquest are getting reviewed by themselves because they can be perfectly played as standalone experiences.

They rebalanced the cost of the equipment here due to the weapons having unlimited uses - although it's true that, due to staffs still having limits, it ends up meaning that they cost more than before - while weapons costing more is just fine since they won't break.

Besides, the story isn't the entire game. Revelations, gameplay-wise, is useful if you want competitive multiplayer due to having all characters that can be used in pairings and S rankings among each other, but the main campaign itself has a really messy balance with many useless units (joining with low levels much later than they did originally) and map gimmicks that often just makes the game drag on. Game design-wise, Conquest is a superior game to Revelations if you want a challenging campaign and interesting map and enemy design, while Hoshido, although having less options, is a much faster game and still better balanced than Revelation.
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Red Fox of Fire



Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 345
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:43 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
Yeah because the problem with Troubadours sucking on offense and defense and being a pain to level up. Is absolutely because of player skill, not lazy/redundant game design. Also this is with regards to the older Emblem games not the newer ones especially since Fates decides to actually to fix this (somewhat) with the Butler and Maid class.

Yes, it is absolutely player skill. Since before the series came out in English the player has been able to check where any enemy can reach, so it's the player's own fault for leaving healers where enemies can reach them.

I definitely understand the frustration in the games where enemies spawn at the beginning of enemy phase (and move immediately), but that's limited to Awakening on Hard+ difficulties of the games released in English (and maybe Shadow Dragon, I don't remember). Your healers should always be behind the front lines and out of harm's way. It's never difficult to heal someone and then have combatants kill problem enemies and block off any enemies remaining that might have been able to reach the healer. This is basic Fire Emblem 1.0 here.
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crazieanimefan1



Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 409
Location: Auburn, AL
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:18 pm Reply with quote
I'm so new Birthright is my first FE game. I love it to pieces.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5938
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Since before the series came out in English the player has been able to check where any enemy can reach, so it's the player's own fault for leaving healers where enemies can reach them


Clearly the enemy chucking a javelin or a fireball at your healer when they're standing behind another unit while doing their job and killing them in the process. Or killing the unit they're paired up with and killing them afterwards without a fight is the player's fault no one else's.

It's fine if you like that kind of difficulty but it's a bit wrong to actually blame the players for something that's clearly the fault of developers trying to institute fake difficulty and relying on outdated setups when they don't have to.

If dancers/songstresses can defend themselves against enemy units there is literally no reason for base level healers and troubadours to be rendered incapable of doing this still.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

It's never difficult to heal someone


Never recalled stating that it was. Though I believe Thracia 776 players may challenge you on that. That aside though is it difficult to level up a healer because they can only gain experience by healing other units because they mind-numbingly can't gain that experience the same way most of your other units do?...........yes.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:

and block off any enemies remaining that might have been able to reach the healer. This is basic Fire Emblem 1.0 here.


Yeah it's so basic that it's outdated and legitimately flawed but hey let's not bust Intelligent Systems chops over tired and cheap gameplay design concerning healers in their games that could stand to be tweaked. Let's just blame players even those who know how to play Fire Emblem games simply for not being good enough, prior experience with Rekka no Ken, Sacred Stones, & Awakening be damned.
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Red Fox of Fire



Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 345
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:11 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
Clearly the enemy chucking a javelin or a fireball at your healer when they're standing behind another unit while doing their job and killing them in the process. Or killing the unit they're paired up with and killing them afterwards without a fight is the player's fault no one else's.

It is, indeed, the player's fault and no one else's.

Where is your argument coming from? Is there some rule that healers in strategy games must be able to fight back? You're talking nonsense. All you're saying is that because it is not the way you want it to be, it's bad game design. The game gives you all the information you need to keep your healers safe. It's up to you to use it.

Quote:
If dancers/songstresses can defend themselves against enemy units there is literally no reason for base level healers and troubadours to be rendered incapable of doing this still.

These units being able to fight back is almost completely pointless as they usually get killed if they're attacked at all and don't often do much, if any, damage when they do attack. There's really no difference between them and healers in this regard; they are support units that should be kept behind the front lines.

Quote:
Never recalled stating that it was. Though I believe Thracia 776 players may challenge you on that. That aside though is it difficult to level up a healer because they can only gain experience by healing other units because they mind-numbingly can't gain that experience the same way most of your other units do?...........yes.

You just literally chopped a sentence of mine in two to make a completely out-of-context response. I shouldn't even be responding to someone as incapable of basic logical reasoning and courtesy as you.

Quote:
Yeah it's so basic that it's outdated and legitimately flawed but hey let's not bust Intelligent Systems chops over tired and cheap gameplay design concerning healers in their games that could stand to be tweaked. Let's just blame players even those who know how to play Fire Emblem games simply for not being good enough, prior experience with Rekka no Ken, Sacred Stones, & Awakening be damned.

I've been visiting Fire Emblem forums and fan sites for over a decade and never once have I heard these complaints from any other person. Sometimes people are annoyed by healers' lack of defenses, or their slow rate of leveling, but no one ever calls their inability to fight before promotion bad game design. Therefore, I am done here. Your arguments are baseless and not worth considering any longer.

EDIT: Incidentally, in Radiant Dawn, healers actually could fight back. Unfortunately, much like I mentioned above about Dancer-types, it was basically useless because they would often die before being able to strike back and whacking enemies with a staff didn't do much in response. No one really liked the feature.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5938
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Red Fox of Fire wrote:

Where is your argument coming from? Is there some rule that healers in strategy games must be able to fight back?


Given that other strategy RPGs Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance to name a few have given healers the ability to do so it...seem rather outdated for Fire Emblem at this point and time to still actually not let healers do so.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

You're talking nonsense. All you're saying is that because it is not the way you want it to be, it's bad game design. The game gives you all the information you need to keep your healers safe. It's up to you to use it.


Funny I'm talking nonsense you're coming off as a deluded apologist who seemingly hates the idea of this series implementing change which historically it has never been shy about making for better or worse.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:

You just literally chopped a sentence of mine in two to make a completely out-of-context response.


You're the one who said that healing in the game's isn't difficult (seemingly at random), all I did was point out something you seemingly weren't aware of despite you apparently being better learned about the history of this series and it's mechanics than me.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

I shouldn't even be responding to someone as incapable of basic logical reasoning and courtesy as you.


Considering the fact you were already coming off as needlessly condescending,disrespectful, & presumptuous when it wasn't warranted, when we first got into the debate you're really not in any position to be taking the high road now.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

I've been visiting Fire Emblem forums and fan sites for over a decade and never once have I heard these complaints from any other person.


Would this happen to be because some of the veteran players of Fire Emblem (even those still investing in this series post Awakening) are okay with it? because their lack of dissension over it doesn't really mean much to me nor disregards the fact that's it's something that should be addressed if not outright fix in any future titles.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

Sometimes people are annoyed by healers' lack of defenses, or their slow rate of leveling, but no one ever calls their inability to fight before promotion bad game design.


Healers only being able to gain exp by healing ally units and nothing else is tedious and bad game design don't matter how much you want to ignore it, it is what it is.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:

Therefore, I am done here. Your arguments are baseless and not worth considering any longer.


It's hard to see someone's else's point of view when you're suffering from delusions and pretending that something tired and broken shouldn't be fixed. And that instead people should just learn how to get more skilled at doing something even if they're skilled enough in the first place.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

EDIT: Incidentally, in Radiant Dawn, healers actually could fight back. Unfortunately, much like I mentioned above about Dancer-types, it was basically useless because they would often die before being able to strike back and whacking enemies with a staff didn't do much in response.


Easily mitigated by lowering the enemy's health with a stronger unit(s) just enough to then let the weaker unit finish them off and gain the experience for themselves, you know kind of like what you already would do with much weaker units with offensive capabilities.......looks like someone needs to brush up on their Fire Emblem Combat 101 instead of needlessly throwing shade around.
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Red Fox of Fire



Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 345
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:56 am Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
Easily mitigated by lowering the enemy's health with a stronger unit(s) just enough to then let the weaker unit finish them off and gain the experience for themselves, you know kind of like what you already would do with much weaker units with offensive capabilities.......looks like someone needs to brush up on their Fire Emblem Combat 101 instead of needlessly throwing shade around.

Just gonna respond to this bit because you clearly haven't played RD and don't know the situation here.
-Staff attacks usually did nothing. Zero. No damage, no kills. By the time the unit was strong enough to deal damage with a staff, they had magic to use.
-Staffs could only retaliate, not initiate attack. The whole weakening process is only reliable if the weak unit getting the kill doesn't have to eat a hit first.

I'm 1,000 times better at FE than someone who can't protect healers is, yet I would only need to be about 1.5 times better than you to figure out how to protect healers (a concept I had down on my literal first run of a FE game back in 2004 when I was 13 years old). Don't think you know anything I don't when it comes to this series.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5938
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:04 am Reply with quote
Red Fox of Fire wrote:

Just gonna respond to this bit because you clearly haven't played RD and don't know the situation here.
-Staff attacks usually did nothing. Zero. No damage, no kills. By the time the unit was strong enough to deal damage with a staff, they had magic to use.
-Staffs could only retaliate, not initiate attack. The whole weakening process is only reliable if the weak unit getting the kill doesn't have to eat a hit first.


From what I've heard about Radiant Dawn it was rushed through in development, if so I can certainly see why this would be as broken and as semi useless as you make it sound...and if not also see it as another example of IS not knowing how to make something in a Fire Emblem game "not suck" or be outright pointless. You're still not offering any justifications for why they should keep doing the same thing regarding healers or rather not do anything at all.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:

I'm 1,000 times better at FE than someone who can't protect healers is.


Yeah I don't recall asking if you were or weren't and you're feeling yourself an awful lot right about now. Not to mention further illustrating you can't pay attention to things like why people criticize certain things due to your sense of delusion which has now morphed into a delusion of grandeur.

Secondly this was about how IS can come up with a way to make Healers more useful outside of their default purpose and less tedious to level up in the game . This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've had this explained to you, wanna try again? Or do you wanna keep insisting arrogantly how shoddy my playing is. While needlessly telling me how good at these games you allegedly are despite me never asking you and largely being uninterested in your doing so.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:26 am Reply with quote
Hey, let's keep it civil in here folks.
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Somewhere



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 361
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:13 pm Reply with quote
There's an implicit assumption when pointing out 'fake difficulty': That easier is automatically 'correct'.
Why is that? Why is there no argument given for it; that it is assumed to automatically justify itself by being?
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Saffire



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1256
Location: Iowa, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:05 pm Reply with quote
Somewhere wrote:
There's an implicit assumption when pointing out 'fake difficulty': That easier is automatically 'correct'.
Why is that? Why is there no argument given for it; that it is assumed to automatically justify itself by being?
I don't know specifically what you're referring to, but arguments about fake difficulty usually have nothing to do with easier being better or more correct.
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Somewhere



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 361
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:16 pm Reply with quote
'It's a mechanic that makes things harder, get rid of it' is a way to phrase 'make it easier, it'll be better that way'

Edit: Here's a more specific way to frame it.

Permanent death is an arbitrary mechanic.
The lack of permanent death is also arbitrary. When I see a person advocate for the removal of permanent death, I do not see an argument for this beyond 'it's just how things are done elsewhere'.

A healer not being able to do anything beyond using staves is arbitrary.
A healer being able to do anything beyond using staves is also arbitrary.
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