Forum - View topicKyoto Animation...what is it?
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Episode 19. Extremely spoiler-laden clip here. (DO NOT WATCH THIS CLIP UNLESS YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN EPISODE 19 OF KANON. IT WILL SPOIL THE ANIME FOR YOU. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. REALLY. I'M NOT KIDDING. I TOLD YOU I'D SHOOT! BUT YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE ME! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?!) - abunai |
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Veoryn87
 Posts: 808 |
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Well I just spoiled it for myself.  Thanks.
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Of course you disagree, you disagree with everything I say. [/sarcasm] That said, if you haven't seen Air/Clannad/Kanon/Lucky Star what have you really seen then of their recent works? Haruhi and Fumoffu? Fumoffu is by far their weakest production of late in terms of writing in my opinion, as everything since then has been stellar. Haruhi on the other hand, was brilliantly written for an anime, and the other 4 series are genuinely witty and perfectly paced (ok, Air wasn't perfectly paced). The dialogue also deserves a special mention; the thing about the KyoAni writers is that the dialogue doesn't usually sound like a script the actors are saying, it comes out much more like a real conversation might than most other anime. Even when they're talking about incredibly mundane things that would bore me to tears in other shows, they manage to make it interesting by making the characters quirky and the conversation unpredictable (like in real life, most conversations I try to hold with people inevitably end up on tangents within 2-3 minutes).
Ok, I think that may have come out wrong, I don't mean to say that they're a lazy studio or anything of the sort. However, I have seen all of the their productions in the last 4-5 years (most of them 2 or more times), and they don't cut many less corners than any other big name studio out there. You're impressed by the small details, and you have every right to be as they really are impressive, and I would agree with you if you said that they probably produce the generally highest quality animation. However, they do cut a lot of corners animation wise through clever camera angles and well thought out writing. If you also notice, they don't really do action shows, so most of their shows involve a LOT of talking heads. This isn't a problem necessarily, but it's just the type of shows they make. They can afford to splurge on the little details precisely BECAUSE they don't do a lot of complicated sequences. |
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Animastryfe
 Posts: 152 Location: Vancouver |
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@Selenta: I'm sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable about what animation companies do. What do you mean by their writing? I thought their adaptations are very very close to the source material, or do you mean some writing in another way?
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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It's difficult to describe exactly, because there's a lot of aspects to the quality of the writing in my mind, so I'll talk about it with respect to Haruhi. Haruhi was based off of a set of popular novels, but when it was decided to make it into an anime, they decided to make the show fit more aptly into the 12-14 episodes seasons that are expected in Japan. The writers knew it was their job to keep the audience entertained and addicted to the show for the entire run, not just part of it, so they made the decision to show the show in an anachronistic order for a number of reasons. The order was chosen to air the last episode in the middle and one of the middle episodes last, because the true climax of the show was in that middle episode. They saw that if they chose to air it in the order given in the source material, a sizable portion of their audience would lose interest halfway through when the story ended. Clearly, a lot of people who came back and watched the show after it was finished weren't as intrigued as the people who watched it as it was airing, but I'm sure you saw the buzz that was going on from the show when it was airing if you were watching anime then. It was the writing to decide what order the episodes would air in for maximum effect. It was their job to turn the dialogue from the novel into the dialogue for the anime. It was also the writers job to make sure that all the extra detail from the novels that wasn't expressed in dialogue made it the screen somehow, it may have been in dialogue, or it may have been in some other form who's actual execution isn't technically the writer's job. Though I guess some of this falls peripherally under the job description of the director, part of the director's job is certainly to make the writing work in the final product. |
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Westlo
 Posts: 1684 |
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I love Kyoto Animation, don't get me wrong. But until I see something I regard as good as RahXephon or Cowboy Bebop (just an example) that says original concept by KyoAni, I can't put them on a pedestal above every other studio like so many others do. The only original work by KyoAni in Munto is definitely not something that compares to those shows....
With that said KyoAni are simply the best at adapting stuff, they have forged a relationship with the author of Full Metal Panic novels. He was so impressed by an original KyoAni fummofu short he actually wrote it into one of his FMP short stories novels. He wrote the first 4 episodes of TSR so he can get things back on track due to a "lol gonzo" ending for the first series. He's also wrote 3 episodes of Lucky Star and I personally think those 3 (5, 11 and 21) are the best in the series. If I wanted a studio to adapt a light or visual novel KyoAni would be my first choice every time. KyoAni are a tight knit team though and only working on one show at a time allows them to always give their best. Though the one show at a time thing does mean we will probably never see a feature film from them and it does cause some pain to fans. I and many other FMP fans will probably end up in despair if they announce Little Busters will follow the upcoming Haruhi 2. Edit - While I think KyoAni is the most consistant anime studio in terms of tv series animation quality. I would have to say Production I.G has surpassed them with first Seirei no Moribito and now Ghost Hound. Also Toei have impressed me a lot lately with their animation technique for Mononoke and now Hakaba Kitarou. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6869 Location: Kazune City |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18212 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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If KyoAni is not the best Japanese studio doing series animation right now, I'd like to know who is. Other studios have peaked as high or slightly higher, but over the past four years no other studio has consistently put out such a high level of quality work. The refinement and sheen of their work has made their series so easily recognizable as KyoAni projects that I don't even need to look at the credits anymore to know they did a series - and I can't say that about any other studio right now.
I'm convinced the "one series at a time" philosophy has a lot to do with it. Gonzo, at its best, matches KyoAni, but they spread themselves too thin, resulting in the "A team/B team/C team effort" comments mentioned earlier (which I'm primarily responsible for, I think). As others have noted, KyoAni also seems to have a bit more attention to detail than most in their animation - the aforementioned scene from MoHS episode 12, which I consider the best-animated series scene of the past year, also stands out as a prime example to me - but the bigger factor for me is their high level of quality control. You usually don't see the kind of minor breakdowns in rendering, animation quality, and foreground/background integration in their work that can be found in the work of most other studios doing series animation. (Bones, I'm specifically looking at you.) That I greatly respect. |
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Westlo
Posts: 1684 |
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I would think Production I.G and Madhouse way before I think of Gonzo who have tarnished their animation reputation long ago.... I.G have been excellent from Moribito to Ghost Hound and I'm looking forward to Real Drive and Library War this coming Spring Season. Madhouse tend to suffer from doing too much at the same time like Gonzo... they were working on 5 tv shows at once when Spring 07 started and possibly a movie or two as well... If you can look past the designs I think Dennou Coil is superior to any KyoAni show in terms of pure animation, as a major Madhouse anime should be really.... But in terms of consistency KyoAni is #1 at least until I.G put out a few more years worth of Moribito type excellence and stop with the Reideens. Yes the 1 series at a time philosophy is a major reason for it but they work how they want to. Though I'm pretty sure they were working on Clannad during Lucky Star ;) |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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I disagree with you a lot but just to let you know, I'm not purposefully trying to be argumentative, and in general when I don't respond to things it's often because I agree. So half of your first post I was already agreeing with. I still do not agree with your assessment of Haruhi's writing. But good or bad writing is partially subjective, and your opinion is certainly a valid one. I think Haruhi's writing is above-average myself, just nowhere near terrific. I kind of agree with you about Kyoto Ani being able to splurge more because most of their shows aren't action shows. However, what I define as corner-cutting is lazy animation and/or stupid-camera-shots-looking-at-nothing beyond the call of what is natural for the show in question. If a normal person in real life wouldn't have moved in that situation then it's okay for the anime person to not move. But if a real person would have moved then the anime person must move too. Kyoto Animation follows that law to the letter while almost no other animation studio does. There are (rare) scenes of nothing from time to time in Haruhi, but to me most of them felt natural (i.e. a live-action movie might have done the same). Another big aspect of corner-cutting to me is panning. In my mind I think panning should be banned in general. Whenever I see an anime pan I immediately see mega-cheapness, whereas panning actually makes an anime seem less cheap to most viewers. Haruhi hardly ever pans, actually I'm not sure it ever does. The other major point to make though is that Kyoto Animation did FMP:TSR. And FMP:TSR is a huge action show with relatively few stationary talking moments. Yet the animation quality for FMP:TSR is even of an higher quality than in Haruhi, when we'd expect the opposite to occur. So that made me think that the fact that they do mostly non-action shows is NOT the reason Kyoto Animation produces such high quality animation. Another interesting thing about corner-cutting can be pointed out in FMP:TSR as well (and probably Fumoffu, actually I've never seen Fumoffu). When people talk in FMP:TSR, their whole chins and lower-face move. Not just the mouth. It is always like that. But in almost all other animes (including Haruhi and Lucky Star), when people are stationary and talk, only the mouth opens and closes cheaply. That might just be a feature of the animation/drawing style of FMP, but it's still expensive to do nonetheless and the total anti-example of corner-cutting. I've always been curious, is FMP Season 1 made by GONZO the same way? I've never seen it and probably never will. GONZO is possibly the cheapest animation studio out there in my opinion, with the most corner-cutting, at least for their "B" and "C" teams...I can't see them animating the chins the same way. If so that would be something to laugh at when comparing FMP to FMP:TSR, everyone would "talk" differently. 
Last edited by Porcupine on Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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I can't remember the chins or talking but the first season of FMP looks pretty much the same as TSR. The actual drawing style looks around the same, that is, not the animation. Gonzo cheapest? Maybe out of the MAJOR studios, I don't know. When I saw the first season it looked really good and still does, just not ALL the time like a KyoAni production. I found FMP by asking for a newer english dubbed anime with great animation, actually. (Couple of years ago) Liked it so much that I was annoyed TSR hadn't been dubbed at the time. I LOVE the english cast and waited for the dvds.
Anyway:
This is definitely something I agree with and I couldn't quite find the words earlier. The animation looks live action sometime with fluid motion rather than stiff movements just at the joints. I think I need to rewatch Haruhi soon.. |
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Animastryfe
Posts: 152 Location: Vancouver |
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FMP season 1 does not have chins moving when the characters are facing the camera and talking.
Also, why do you consider panning cheap? I'm really new to animation in general. Edit: Fumoffu does not have chins moving either. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Yeah there are definitely some small or new crappy studios that rival Gonzo's "C" team for crappiest animation ever, lol. But I don't want to think about that.
I've never actually seen a Gonzo "A" team work, I just theorize it might exist. Except for maybe Vandread but that show is so old that Gonzo wasn't really the same company back then. Maybe Fullmetal Panic 1st season is Gonzo "A" team's signature work. Anima, thanks for checking that for us. Lol, it probably would be hilarious to side-by-side compare Gonzo vs Kyoto version FMP then when the characters simply talk while facing the camera. Wait, Fumoffu doesn't have the moving chins either? ... lol, oh well. Panning is cheap because the animators don't have to actually draw any new pictures for the duration of the pan. Panning is a crafty way to make a completely stationary image seem like it is moving. Very limited and careful usage of panning can be okay to me, but whenever I see a pan, I try to imagine "What would this scene and show be like if I replaced all these panning moments with the stationary image?" For some shows, it will still be okay. But for cheaper shows, you might realize that "Hey, this show would be like crap. It would just be ultra boring and we would realize we are looking at still pictures most of the time and how are we even staying awake?" |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Re: Samurai Deeper Kyo That was the first show to bring this to my attention a few years back. |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I don't really have much more to add to the subject actually, but while I'm glad that we somewhat agree on this Porcupine, I would appreciate it if you didn't ignore my [/sarcasm] tag and act like you didn't know I wasn't serious.
Yeah, all the major studio's "A" teams have put out good work to be sure, from Gankutsuou to Seirei no Moribito to Dennou Coil to Gurren Lagann, any of those would pass any of KyoAni's projects (unarguably the middle two), but those studios also put out a good deal of very mediocre shows as well. Seirei is probably the most impressive one for me in animation style and art of all time, to the point that I completely take it for granted when I'm watching it. That's why for me, while their animation isn't the best in the field, though it is consistently among the best, it's the pure quality of the REST of the staff that really makes every one of their shows enjoyable to me. |
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